Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@debjit_g re: ... "On a serious note, you can never win a battle over there and neither they can win a battle over here. It’s a never ending story that started ever since the dawn of the day and will continue till apocalypse ☠️
After all this is a hobby. Don’t take things seriously and personally."

I agree completely. If I may, I suggest that everyone relax - and perhaps hold off on the name calling.

Btw, also I didn't state that the DA005 doesn't meet standards, or that ASR doesn't like the measured results (which is definitely true :-).

What I pointed out was IF (and I emphasized the IF) the measured performance is correct, then it doesn't meet the specs claimed by the manufacturer. That seems like a reasonable observation to me. No?

For what it's worth, the text of the 30 Day No Questions Return Policy as posted on the Shenzen Audio web page currently reads as follows. 

"30 Days No Reason Return

If you are not satisfied with your purchase and the product is still in brand new condition, we can arrange a partial refund, which will cover the price of the item minus the shipping fees. You will be responsible for paying the return shipping fees.

Please contact us for Return Material Authorization within 30 days of the order being received.

Note: Items such as Eartips / Leather case / Cable are not covered by this guarantee due to hygiene considerations."

I have also appreciated this thread and all of those who have taken the time contribute to it, for bringing my attention a lesser known piece of equipment that seems worthy of discussion at least and for some, for consideration. I have been considering purchasing one myself, so thanks to those with first hand experience sharing their impressions and comparisons where available, and I hope that will continue.

I will say that I find the fact that ShenzenAudio seems to have a different policy for returns in practice than stated on their web site a bit troubling, and certainly good to know - thanks @pt999 for making me and us aware of that. That’s particularly useful (imo) in this case of a (so far) lesser known and appreciated and therefore potentially not as easy to resell item.

All of the info in this thread is and has been good info and food for thought for me in considering this item and potential purchase.

For my $.50 (inflation adjusted value ;-) I hope that we can continue to hear and appreciate all of the different impressions and experiences with the product, similar and comparable products, and with sellers from whom we might purchase.

Got it - thanks again for the info!

Thanks @melm, that's a helpful reference point.

Yeah the Saga+ isn't currently in use. Had it for another reason, not getting much use these days. 

I'm somewhat (superficially) familiar with the Rouge RP-7, so I have some idea. Definitely sounds like a nice step up, probably a better match and more representative. Although I did read the post from the user who seems quite happy with the Topping 90pre, and now a couple of people who like/d the DA005 with Schiit preamps, so it would seem that there is a range of options that could be at least acceptable.

Thanks again - cheers.

@sruffle got it. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

As well as for your posts with impressions @sns.

Re "too austere, clinical for me" [direct] - yeah, that's been a common theme, and something of a concern for me, DA005 sound seems to be close to the analytical line. Sure wish I could hear it. It is what it is - thanks!

On the subject of improved SQ when a preamp is used with the DA005, has anyone tried with a passive preamp?

This would of course only affect the output aspect presented at the interface to the amp, and would not provide any gain. Does any one know whether gain specifically has a beneficial effect?

The reason that I ask is that I don’t (yet?) own a DA005, and happen to have a passive preamp (Saga+) not currently in use which I understand provides an output impedance of 180 ohms in the tube mode. I’m wondering whether that would be helpful, or whether a preamp with gain is needed to get the SQ benefits some have mentioned?

Please, I suggest that we don’t get (further :-) into the ’just buy it and try it’ discussion for now :-). Has anyone tried the DA005 with a passive preamp, or is familiar enough with the DA005 interface to know whether the the improvements come from impedance matching, signal level, or a combination of both?

Edit: The second para should read:

"This would of course only affect the output _impedance_ aspect presented at the interface to the amp, and would not provide any gain...."

And yeah, I realize that the Saga+ isn't strictly 'passive'...

I'm trying to get at whether changing the output impedance presented by the DAC and/or pre-amp to the amp provides most of the benefit, or whether additional gain is important for best SQ with the DA005.

Sorry for the multiple posts.

Interesting, thanks for the info @sruffle.

I imagine that you probably tried the system & DAC005 with and without the preamp. Did you find that the Tortuga improves the SQ result significantly? or are you perhaps using the Tortuga for other reasons?

Thanks @melm. That's kind of what I expected, but it was worth asking :-). Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. Out of curiosity, how would you compare the SQ result with the RP-7 vs the Freya+?

A new DAC at this time would already be an unplanned upgrade for me in the first place, so I'm trying to understand the likely actual cost (whether either initially or over time, its much the same for me).

The rest of the chain is a Chord Hugo 2, A&S Mogwai SE and Susvara. 

Interesting - thanks for the info @sns.

Just for completeness, is that an OG Saga, or Saga+?

@melm re "Somewhere in an audio system, unless it is exquisitely matched, there will be the limiting component..." - Yep, so true. There's always something that's the weakest link, that could be better...

Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your impressions of the DA005 with and without a preamp, and with various different preamps. That was helpful for me, and I hope may help others considering adding this product to their system.

Fyi fwiw I've placed an order. I expect it to be several weeks before it arrives and I get at least a bit of time on it. Thanks again - Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone.

@yyzsantabarbara thanks for the update. It's great that you've found a pairing that you are very happy with, congrats & enjoy :-).

I haven't yet decide what pre-amp to try the Musetec yet. Out of curiosity, are you using and liking stock tubes in the Freya+ w/ your Musetec?

I'm about 40 hours in. Just to add my two cents in case it's helpful ...

Yep, the sound changes quite a bit during the initial hours to my ears also.  Listening every 4 hours or so, just for fun. It has sounded really good at times, and at one point I literally thought 'wtf?'? that sounds totally different - and not good', took the headphones off and set it back to cook some more.

As far as the sound character goes, I think that @melm summed it up very well when he wrote "Fluidity, clarity, bass extension". Maybe I'd describe it further as clarity first and foremost (at the 40 hour point), with a good measure of fluidity and natural sound, plenty of PRaT, pace and control, including bass.

Overall at this point it seems to be settling in, and sounds really good. So far in character it reminds me a bit of the Benchmark DAC3, but better, perhaps a bit more fluid and natural.

As far as whether there is a tendency toward relentless or hyper analytical sound, I I can see where that impression comes from. I'd describe it (as some others have) as not kind to aggressive sounding recordings.

For example, listening to some Mike Dawes acoustic guitar (Somebody I Used to Know, Boogie Slam, Slow Dancing in a Burning Room, Superstition, etc.) which are pretty 'hot' sounding recordings. Sounds great, but the sound as captured on the recordings can be a bit relentless.

With the DA005 the character of these recordings comes through crystal clear. At this point, it seems to me like a totally honest view into the recording and source. Unforgiving, perhaps, but I'm thinking that's as it should be - no editorializing or 'beauty filter' smoothing is applied to the sound at all. To be clear, I don't find it dry or harsh at all - just totally clear, in a good way.

Yeah, I understand that the sound should stabilize and continue to get better as I get to try it with more recordings, so consider these preliminary impressions of course, fwiw. Cheers.

hi @sns, thanks for your comments.

I think that I get the distinction/point that you're trying to make (and my impressions so far agree btw). It seems to me that we're reporting very similar impressions in slightly different ways.

I'm glad to hear that only more good things are in store for the longer term sound once the DA005 has fully stabilized! 

Thanks @yyzsantabarbara, I appreciate the info and your impressions with the preamps you have at hand. It sounds like you have a couple of great options, and you're well set with two really great systems. That's awesome - enjoy.

Fwiw, I find the difference between what I hear in some cases (including this one), and the measured results quite interesting.

If anyone knows of a place (specific forum/threads, website, etc.) where an _open minded_ discussion and exploration of this topic is taking place, I'd be interested.

Not wanting to derail this thread with either my thoughts on the matter or the ensuing discussion, please feel free to PM me with the name and/or URL(s) if you know of any. Or post it here if you think it might be of interest to this community.

@lordmelton, please re-read. Yes, I have listened to this DAC, and like it.

I don't recall stating that I couldn't hear the difference in cables or otherwise - did I say that somewhere?

However _IF_ it turns out to be true, I don't appreciate equipment which fails to meet published and advertised specifications. I don't think that's unreasonable.

@lordmelton, please relax.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it is quite incorrect.

Likewise I have a LKS USB-100 on order, and plan to use it with a third party LPS. Can someone pls confirm - is the DC input on the USB-100 center positive?

Common for sure. Just checking - I don't want to a*sume...

Has anyone tried a Matrix X-SPDIF2 with the DA005 via the HDMI interface? If so, impressions regarding the sound?

Fwiw, I think it's great to have multiple really good options, and impressions from people regarding what they've found to work well in the different approaches. Good discussion, imo.

As a result I at least plan to try a bit of both approaches - over time. I'm curious now about the potential of the I2S interface of the DA005, so I plan to try that once I get a chance to get some cables and bits and set it up and experiment a bit. I may even try an LKS USB-100. And then eventually I will likely give either ethernet to USB a try, and/or cleaner optimized USB output directly from a server.

(All of this will likely take a bit of time as I have as I have some other priorities - both in my audio system, and elsewhere. It should keep me entertained for a while though. Fun hobby :-)

I for one have been enjoying reading about everyone's experience with ALL of the different interfaces of the DA005 and upstream approaches, and I hope that everyone will continue to share their impressions and approaches.

@dbb, thanks. Yep, plenty of opinions on this topic for sure.

@melm, thanks for that.

Right, philosophy and approach aside, one should be able to expect that the unit should meet its published specs, under at least some - ideally normal/standard, test conditions.

@melm, thanks for obtaining & sharing that. A thoughtful and constructive response, imo.

@sns, agree, was wondering the same thing, that’s the big question :-). It will be great to see / hear what measurement results and what changes if any Jinbo comes up with - and _especially_, how they sound of course.

I’d also be quite interested to know whether most of the units produced do meet the published specs or not. In my view, wanting or hoping for better measured performance would be one thing, but units meeting published specifications is a bit different.

Likewise, I would prefer and choose better sound vs better spec.s if it does come down to that. I think that all of use who enjoy this DAC feel this way. Who knows, maybe his investigation just might lead to even more refinement, and further elevation of the sound quality/reproduction as @sns suggested might be possible?

Much respect is due to Jinbo imo for his continued pursuit of the best sound at reasonable price points over many generations of products. From what we’ve seen and heard of his products so far, I doubt that he would sacrifice sound quality for better measurements, but as let’s see what he finds and proposes. I look forward to his findings, and proposal if any.

hi @lordmelton,

Mine arrived recently. Haven’t really had a chance to check it out yet so don’t have any impressions yet (and I have only basic cables for it so far, so it will be something a process)

I ordered from Shenzhen Audio. Fwiw, mine arrived in arrived in a plain cardboard box w/ a return address in the US, no OEM packaging, and the inner wrapper / bag looked a little worn.

@lordmelton, thanks for the recommendation on the cable - good info. My system is a bit of a work in progress, no optical isolation as yet. I have been reading the recommendations re optical isolation with interest, and am looking forward to adding an optical segment at some point. There are a few other 'opportunities' to optimize to address as well.

Fun hobby for me, no huge hurry to get to the end (or more realistically, the next level? ;-).  This system sounds really good to me as it is and I'm enjoying music with it greatly, so it's all upside.