Hello stickman 451, Are you sure you really want to move on from your Magnepan 20.7s? I believe you'll likely regret it for numerous reasons that will likely become painfully obvious once you switch to any other speaker options anywhere near their price point. Yes your room is large at 21.5'x30' but given your high quality system and speaker components, I suggest you explore methods of optimizing your current system prior to seriously considering making any possibly unnecessary and costly changes. I'm basing my opinion on you already owning all the required excellent component parts to achieve near state of the art full range sound quality performance in your room and my personal experience achieving similar full range results with less expensive system component parts and in a smaller 16'x23' room. I utilize Magnepan 3.7i main speakers in combination with a 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system very similar to the Audio Kinesis Swarm system reviewed by The Absolute Sound in the link below: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I can attest to this review being a very accurate description of the very high quality bass and seamless bass integration with your 20.7 main speakers you can expect, even in your larger room. Because you already own a pair of very high quality REL G-2 subs, however, I know you have other options for attaining excellent supplemental bass performance in your room. If you're mainly concerned with performance results at a single dedicated listening seat, I believe you can do so by just optimally positioning your two G-2 subs and 20.7 main speakers separately in relation to your listening seat. I could describe exactly how to do this or you could request your local REL and/or Magnepan dealer come to your home and do it for you. If you prefer great bass results throughout your entire room, I'm as certain as I can be that you can do so by either utilizing the 4-sub AK Swarm DBA system or creating your own custom 4-sub DBA system. This could take the form of adding two more G-2 subs and optimally positioning and configuring them. But I believe it could also take the form of adding two more smaller REL subs, such as the 7i or 9i units, and achieve very similar results. Another option is the 6-sub distributed line array bass system suggested earlier by mijostyn, either with your 20.7s or his suggested Sound Labs 845s. I agree with him that having 6 subs lined up along your front wall is the ultimate bass system in terms of volume and dynamics, however, you or your domestic partner may not accept the room décor statement of 6 subs lined up along your living or family room wall. But if you have the freedom, I think it's the only bass system that could equal the 4-sub DBA's bass quality and exceed its bass SPL levels. As to your thread topic, though, Magnepans have been my favorite choice for main speakers but, if I had to pick others, I'd probably either choose Sound Labs, Tidal, Vivid or Magico. Best wishes, Tim |
Hello gammonit_2000,
I agree completely, the LRS are excellent and might be the biggest audio bargain in decades.
I’ve used four different models of Magnepans in my systems during the past forty years and I had the best results with high powered solid state class AB and D amps, it seems like the higher the better and I’m currently using a pair of 1,200 watt class D monos. On another thread here, however, a member said he was driving his new pair of LRS with a 40 watt VTA tube amp with very good results, which really surprised me.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that the Magnepan’s dipole operation contributes to their open and airy sound quality but I don’t think it contributes much to the bass performance. The last two pairs of Magnepans I’ve owned, the 2.7QR and 3.7i, have had excellent bass quality (fast, detailed, natural and seamlessly integrated) but only have bass extension down to about 35 Hz, which results in a lack of bass impact, heft and realistic, natural sounding bass dynamics.
The Audio Kinesis 4-sub DBA not only provided excellent bass quality (fast, smooth, detailed, natural and seamlessly integrated) on both Magnepan models but also provided bass impact, heft, realistic and natural sounding bass dynamics along with bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3db.
Since the Magnepan LRS only have bass extension rated down to 50 Hz, I’m certain their overall performance would be greatly enhanced with the addition of, ideally, the $3K AK 4-sub DBA Swarm system but also significantly enhanced with the addition of virtually any pair of good quality subs one prefers.
I realize that some prefer not to use subs but I also realize that sometimes we just don’t know what we don’t know, or even dare to try.
Total price of a pair of LRS with an AK 4-sub Swarm DBA would be about $3,700, with two good quality subs it could total only about $1,900. With either available with 30 day in-home free trial periods, there’s a big upside with really no downside with both except a bit of time.
Enjoy,
Tim
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Hello stickman451, Here are a couple of articles that a site that discuss 3-sub bass arrays that might prove useful: https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
I know 3 subs can be effective as 4 if positioned and configured properly. Good luck, Tim |
Hello stickman451,
If you read the article on multiple subs I linked to in my last post, you'll have noticed they recommend the use of mics, a computer, room frequency response analysis software and other technical equipment and procedures for the purpose of optimally positioning each of the multiple subs in the room.
I just wanted to mention that, while this technical positioning method is very accurate and effective, there is a much less technical and expensive method that I've found to be just as accurate and effective called the 'crawl method'. You can google the name for procedure details or I could describe them to you if you're interested, but it's basically a method whereby you use your ears and brain, to sequentially and optimally position each of the number of multiple subs you decide to use in your system and room.
I've used both sub positioning methods in my medium sized room to optimally position my four subs and the final sub position results were remarkably similar with each, two subs away from the corners and at opposite sides along my front short wall and one sub toward the rear of my room along each longer side wall, also a few feet away from the room corners.
In your case attempting to optimally position three subs, I suggest the following:
1. Make sure each sub used has separate controls for volume, crossover cutoff frequency and a continuously variable control for phase.
2. Do not just place your three subs where it's most convenient, you feel they look best or you think they will perform best.
3. For positioning, set the sub's volume control at halfway (50%), the crossover cutoff frequency at 40 Hz and the phase control to in-phase (0). These are just initial settings for setup and can be fine tuned for optimum performance afterward.
I recommend that you carefully and systematically position each sub optimally in your room one after the other by closely following either the measurement or crawl method procedure, placing each exactly where you determine each sounds or measures best and then only judging the results after all three have been optimally positioned in your room.
I recommend you operate all your subs in mono mode, since we're unable to localize bass below about 80 Hz, virtually all music recordings sum the bass content to mono at or below about 100 Hz and, therefore, attaining stereo deep bass reproduction is not possible.
I also recommend you run your 20.7s full-range since they have fairly good bass rated bass extension of down to 25 Hz, which is almost down to the audible bass limit of 20 Hz, and they'll act as two legitimate deep bass transducers in your room in addition to your three subs. This will result in even smoother, faster and more detailed overall bass response throughout your entire room that will be even more powerful, dynamic and with a greater sense of ease than if you restrict their deep bass output.
You should be aware, however, that some believe that using subs for bass reproduction, and relieving the main amp and speakers from the responsibility for this bass reproduction either through high-pass filters in the sub or separate filtering, results in significant overall system improvements in midrange, treble and imaging performance. I didn't notice significant improvements on my system, with D-Sonic M3-600-M high powered class D monoblock amps and 3.7i main speakers, but this doesn't mean you won't be able to with your system. You may want to experiment, audition and compare before deciding on a preferred system configuration.
Best wishes,
Tim
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Hello stickman451,
If you read the article on multiple subs I linked to in my last post, you'll have noticed they recommend the use of mics, a computer, room frequency response analysis software and other technical equipment and procedures for the purpose of optimally positioning each of the multiple subs in the room.
I just wanted to mention that, while this technical positioning method is very accurate and effective, there is a much less technical and expensive method that I've found to be just as accurate and effective called the 'crawl method'. You can google the name for procedure details or I could describe them to you if you're interested, but it's basically a method whereby you use your ears and brain, to sequentially and optimally position each of the number of multiple subs you decide to use in your system and room.
I've used both sub positioning methods in my medium sized room to optimally position my four subs and the final sub position results were remarkably similar with each, two subs away from the corners and at opposite sides along my front short wall and one sub toward the rear of my room along each longer side wall, also a few feet away from the room corners.
In your case attempting to optimally position three subs, I suggest the following:
1. Make sure each sub used has separate controls for volume, crossover cutoff frequency and a continuously variable control for phase.
2. Do not just place your three subs where it's most convenient, you feel they look best or you think they will perform best.
3. For positioning, set the sub's volume control at halfway (50%), the crossover cutoff frequency at 40 Hz and the phase control to in-phase (0). These are just initial settings for setup and can be fine tuned for optimum performance afterward.
I recommend that you carefully and systematically position each sub optimally in your room one after the other by closely following either the measurement or crawl method procedure, placing each exactly where you determine each sounds or measures best and then only judging the results after all three have been optimally positioned in your room.
I recommend you operate all your subs in mono mode, since we're unable to localize bass below about 80 Hz, virtually all music recordings sum the bass content to mono at or below about 100 Hz and, therefore, attaining stereo deep bass reproduction is not possible.
I also recommend you run your 20.7s full-range since they have fairly good bass rated bass extension of down to 25 Hz, which is almost down to the audible bass limit of 20 Hz, and they'll act as two legitimate deep bass transducers in your room in addition to your three subs. This will result in even smoother, faster and more detailed overall bass response throughout your entire room that will be even more powerful, dynamic and with a greater sense of ease than if you restrict their deep bass output.
You should be aware, however, that some believe that using subs for bass reproduction, and relieving the main amp and speakers from the responsibility for this bass reproduction either through high-pass filters in the sub or separate filtering, results in significant overall system improvements in midrange, treble and imaging performance. I didn't notice significant improvements on my system, with D-Sonic M3-600-M high powered class D monoblock amps and 3.7i main speakers, but this doesn't mean you won't be able to with your system. You may want to experiment, audition and compare before deciding on a preferred system configuration.
Best wishes,
Tim
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Hello stickman451,
One last tip for best results: I recommend you try to set the volume and crossover frequency as low as possible on all three subs with the bass still sounding very good to you at your listening position. My experience taught me that this will facilitate a seamless integration of the bass with your main speakers.
Tim
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Hello stickman451,
I’m glad you attained much better bass in your large room using a 3-sub custom DBA system. I can’t state I’m surprised since the 3-4 sub DBA system seems to work very well in any room and with any pair of main speakers. Welcome to the club!
I’m also glad you noticed the soundstage, what you refer to as the sound field, grew wider, deeper, more detailed and more realistic overall. This very noticeable improvement in the soundstage size, detail and realism was something I wasn’t expecting but I’ve since learned this is a consistent additional benefit of deploying a 3-4 sub DBA system.
I really enjoy this benefit as well as the way even the deep bass instruments are properly positioned within the soundstage. This is interesting, because I run all 4 of my subs in mono, humans can’t locate frequencies below about 80 Hz (tell where they’re coming from) and there’s no such thing as stereo deep bass because virtually all commercial music has the l+r channel bass below 100 Hz summed to mono. Despite all of this, it’s impressive to me that the deep bass is perceived to be in stereo with a 3-4 sub DBA deployed.
How is this possible? It’s true that the very deep bass tone fundamental frequency reproduced by the DBA cannot be localized but all the bass overtones/harmonics of this fundamental bass tone frequency, that are higher in frequency and are reproduced by the stereo main speakers, can be localized.
We humans are very adept at localizing the bass overtones/harmonics that reach frequencies above about 80 Hz and, fortunately, our brains are able to associate these bass overtones/harmonics with the much lower bass fundamental frequency and therefore determine specifically where in the soundstage it’s originating from. This process allows us to perceive the entire soundstage illusion in stereo precision over the entire audible frequency spectrum. This allows, for example, to perceive an upright bass as being located at the front left side of the soundstage and some deep bass drums being located at the center rear of the soundstage.
You stated:
"Bass is much more evenly distributed throughout the room, sound field grew noticeably wider and deeper, and bass is better extended, better detailed, better realistic decay, and just sounds more REAL!"
I think that’s a very accurate summary of what a 3-4 sub DBA system provides in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers. I would just add that the bass seamlessly integrates with the main speakers and even the deepest bass notes are remarkably perceived as being in stereo and coming from the appropriate specific positions within the entire soundstage illusion.
I believe the power, impact and dynamics of deep bass, especially in the bottom 2 octaves, is what usually distinguishes the sound of music heard played live in person from music recordings heard played on a home audio system. 3-4 sub DBA systems are excellent at reproducing bass that is not only heard but felt in a very powerful, smooth, fast, detailed and natural manner, just like live music heard in person.
These are the main qualities of 3-4 sub DBA systems, in my opinion, that enable them to provide what I consider to be near state of the art bass reproduction that puts a smile on my face on a daily basis whether listening to music or HT.
Enjoy,
Tim
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