Jazz for aficionados

Am I a Clairvoyant, or what??

But this is an unfair 'ruckus'.  On one side of the argument we have all the real musicians that contribute to this thread, and folks like Coltrane, Miles, Ellington, Mingus (esp Mingus), and every other Jazz musician in history.   Also every other non-Jazz musician.  They all practiced and rehearsed.   And how could anyone ever write a Jazz tune without practicing it.

On the other side, we have just O-10 and 'His Friend', who never practiced.  Now this could well be true.  I believe him.  But, It is not significant unless we know who this friend is, so we can listen to his recordings.  Hear him play.  If he didn't make any recordings,  hmmmm,  then not practicing becomes even more believable..  

Now if this Friend turns out to be Coltrane, or Miles or Green, then his claim becomes significant.  Otherwise, as I said before, I didn't practice either, and I sounded like it.   And no one has ever paid me one dollar to play.

So if you won't ID this friend, why keep bringing it up and talking about it?

Cheers

Hi O-10:  RE Your post of 5/7 2:08pm about Coltrane not needing to practice.  Here we go again.  

You have repeatedly had two professional musicians on this thread tell you how incorrect your "theory" is.  I seem to remember a couple of other folks who have played an instrument a little contradicting you as well.  Now jzzmusician makes another.  

Once again - even if one has the greatest talent anyone has ever had, this does NOT mean that one does not have to practice.  Your comparison to making chili is absurd.  ANYONE can learn to make chili, and could make it again at any time thereafter.  It does not require any truly difficult cooking skills (trust me - my wife is related to one of the most famous ever chili cooks in the state that is most famous for it, and I know exactly how to make that award winning but very secret recipe).   A much better comparison would be to an athlete such as Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, who in addition to being one of the most talented basketball players ever were also some of the very hardest working ever.  Or lets stay in the arts, if you prefer, with Pablo Picasso - unquestionably the most talented painter ever born, yet also a workaholic.  

The idea that practice could take away improvisational inspiration is by far the most laughable comment you make - it reminds me of how proud you are of your lack of knowledge and how understanding you think that makes you.  

A playing level, or an improvisational level that high MUST be maintained/developed on a daily basis.  This doesn't mean there can't be some periods of time off occasionally.  One of my teachers took an entire month off the horn every summer, and I have done that a couple of times myself.  But it takes a couple of weeks to get back to where you were if you do that, so you actually have to have at least six weeks off if you are going to even contemplate it.  So, if your friend truly wasn't practicing that entire summer (which no one else reading this seriously believes), and only performing every few days, then his playing level would have gone down considerably and very noticeably (shockingly so to his colleagues) over the course of the summer.  But I guess you couldn't tell that, and I bet you won't even mind admitting it.  You really don't seem to comprehend what the problem with that is, which is -  if you can't even hear something THAT obvious,  then you have zero credibility on anything else you have to say about the music or the performance or the performer, and no one who knows anything about it is going to take you seriously on those subjects, or really anything else that requires the sense of hearing.  Which is a real shame, as this thread is otherwise a great source of information unlike any other out there that I know of in these or any other audiophile forums, and you are to be commended as the original beginner of it. 

Let’s say O-10’s story about "his friend" is true. The guy spent a summer with O-10 and he didn’t practice. OK. We know the guy was a piano player (according to O-10). Did O-10 have a piano in his apt? I doubt it. So, how was the guy going to practice had he wanted to. It is not significant that a professional musician who happens to be very busy performing, or because of circumstance, doesn’t practice for three months. So what? Musicians go through periods (usually relatively short) when they don’t practice much or at all; sometimes you just need a break. The problem with O-10’s comments is the leap to proclaiming that, not only don’t improvising musicians need to practice, that it is actually a bad thing for the creative process (!!!).

No frogman, I am not generalizing, I'm being very specific, I'm talking about JC; there he is with that horn around his neck, when he should be having a good time like everybody else. Miles is acting a complete fool, his picture shows it; that's what people do when they are at a party. What's Trane doing, he went to sleep with that horn around his neck. If that's not overdoing it, I don't know what is.

How many JC's are there? Do you think anyone can be another JC by practicing? Get real, JC was overdoing it. Of course "everybody" needs to practice if they can, but do you take your horn to a party? If the party is a party of the best jazz musicians in the world, maybe; but give it a rest sometime.

I'm convinced that working so hard was a detriment to his playing near the end. If Trane's playing lost McCoy Tyner, and Alvin Jones, where was he going? I believe he couldn't accept the fact that he didn't have to work so hard, that his natural God given talents would take him where he wanted to go.

The biggest reason I'm not trying to prove that summer ever happened is because I can not prove the music because none of it was recorded; but I had been following his music for 6 years before that summer, and this new music was too incredible to believe.

Isaiah Thomas is the best example of someone just letting it flow; if you saw that game where he couldn't miss, you would know what I'm talking about.

I was playing a tennis match, must have been in late August, that means I had played a lot of matches, and done a lot of practicing; and I wasn't even trying really hard, but I could see the ball very clearly, and it appeared to have slowed down. Normally I was conscious of back hand form, or forehand form, but this day I wasn't conscious of anything, I was just playing the game as it presented itself.

Before I even knew it, I had won the set, and everybody was talking about my ground strokes. The only thing I knew was that the ball felt, and sounded good coming off the racket. I never played a match that good again. What I'm saying is "You got to let it flow"; all that hard work a person has been doing for years will takeover. The giants of jazz talk about letting it flow. If a person tries too hard, the muscles are tense and don't cooperate as well.



Enjoy the music.

 

 

One of the most bizarre attempts at an explanation for why extreme dedication to the craft and always striving for improvement is a bad thing. I suppose it’s only natural and not surprising from someone who proudly proclaims to not want to learn anything about music.
I also find this "don’t work so hard, have a good time" attitude to usually be an attempt on the part of some to justify their own shortcomings and mediocrity. I am always looking to learn more, O-10, so please explain on what you base your assertion that JC’s hard work hurt his playing. Please give specifics about his playing and an example or two; this would make your comments relevant. Thanks.

But, here’s the really bizarre aspect of all this: the attempt at a black/white type connection between an artistic mind (JC) on a mission to constantly break new ground and the issue of "practice"; the distinction between the two things gets lost and that is where the reply interesting stuff can be found. Many musicians are obsessive workers who practice incessantly, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are reaching for uncharted artistic territory, they may be striving for perfection (or improvement) within their current artistic comfort zone. What distinguished JC was his never ending quest for new artistic ground. There is an important distinction here that may not be obvious to some. BTW, in the Jazz world, musicians break affiliations with band leaders to pursue solo careers as leaders themselves all the time because of their own need to follow their own individual artistic muse; the same process that JC is being criticized for here. Elvin Jones left JC, not because he didn’t believe in the music, but because JC decided to add a second drummer to the band. Ego?

Lastly, PLEASE, for the umpteenth time:. Alvin was a chipmunk, JC’s great drummer was Elvin. 😊