Hi George,
At the risk of sounding negative (and getting flamed), you'll be throwing away good money after bad if you follow some of the advice here. I know people are trying to help but as the saying goes; the road to hell is paved with good intentions! A new cartridge wont fix your problem, neither will spending hours setting up your analog rig. I'm not familiar with your arm but I know your Basis very well, and its never going to sound right or hot as you put it. I suggest you take a step back and start over again with a new analog setup instead of wasting more time and money on this one. |
I know that they're getting great reviews in the magazines but who isn't these days? The 2000 series is highly colored, has a dark over all character with rolled off highs, very limited bass, if any at all, and anemic mids.... you can add upper bass hump to the suspended models. Most of the tables I heard came with the Graham arm and a Benz cartridge.
Mama |
Sorry George,
I wrote my previous post prior to your last reply, I don't want to attack what you own, just want to give you a different point of view and something to look out for.
Unfortunately these days in the absence of many traditional well established turntable manufacturers good analog has become even more of a moving target. What kind of quality sound do you expect to get from two thin pieces of plastic or wood thrown together? Please just touch the platter and see how much play there is in the bearing and you make your own conclusions.....
Mama |
Dan_ed
>>You sound like one of the reviewers from the magazines. Lots of generalizations and no real specifics<<
What genralization? Please read my post again its very specific!
>>C'mon, give us some comparisons between Basis tables and others, or even Basis tables with different carts and arms<<
If you read the post again without getting emotional or defensive you'll see that I mentioned that more than a few of the Basis tables I heard came with a Graham arm and some Benz cartridge, a few had the Rega arm with some sort of modification, Denon or a Shelter cartridge.
>>Put some meat on the bones!<<
What do you want an essay of 1500 words longer? There's so little to say about something so wrong.
Mama |
Dan_ed
>>Careful, don't commit to a real position on anything too specific.<<
2nd time that you're accusing me and not reading my comments properly, its here again if you can read. What can be more specific than this?
>>The 2000 series is highly colored, has a dark over all character with rolled off highs, very limited bass, if any at all, and anemic mids.... you can add upper bass hump to the suspended model<<
You might not like what I have to say but don't accuse of me of not taking a position and being vague. I don't see why you're trying so hard to make things personal instead of posting a relevant response to the problem.
Mama |
Dear Raul,
I appreciate your comments and I am trying to help George. I wanted to alert him to another possible problem area before dishing out for a new cartridge or spending many futile hours with setup, after all you can't get blood from stone.
The systems that I heard these tables in is irrelevant, let's just say that I know them intimately. The Basis isn't a chameleon, it sounds that way all the time. I've heard the Graham and associated Benz cartridges in enough different setups to know how much of the sound is attributed to the arm and cartridge and how much to the table. I always check the setups carefully before listening and coming to any conclusions. But in this case there really isn't much to think about, the construction of the table tells all!
>>I ask to you ¿which will be your whole specific recomendation for George<<
Back to my initial posting to George; "take a step back and start over again with a new analog setup instead of wasting more time and money on this one."
Mama |
Dear George,
I try to refrain from recommending any specific brands to people, its never that simple. What good is anyone's recommendation without a reference point when you have none?
The brands that you mention is a starting point to educate yourself, especially since they're from very different schools. Check and see if either one is closer to your ideal sound. If working on your own this is a difficult journey but one worth taking, otherwise if you want hand holding, find a good dealer (they exist!) or an experienced fellow audiophile with the kind of sound that you want, to show you the ropes. You need to hear these things for yourself!
Whatever problems there might or might not be with your arm/cartridge and the rest of your system is secondary. You need to start with a reference point and build up from there, the turntable is the foundation of your source. You'll never be able to figure out the arm/cartridge/phono without this reference.
Mama |
Hi Doug,
>>Mine plays cleanly down to at least 16Hz, the lowest I can hear, and I suspect larger models would do even better.<<
I find this statement bewildering, I wonder how you could hear and then measure this low from vinyl, and clean bass to boot. Let's forget that analog never went that low (33-34hz max) and that most analog recordings are in the +40hz range, what I don't see is how your system could even approach 16hz. The 803 Nautilus at best is capable of 60hz-70hz of real bass and anything below isn't really natural bass. Yes, I'm sure you get some boom boom below that but even B&W doesn't claim 16hz.
I SERIOUSLY want to know how do you get clean bass down to 16hz!
>>I've never heard one as I mentioned, but I'm no fan of acrylic tables and I have no trouble believing that adding the suspension could impair clean, strong bass response.<<
I did mention upper bass hump of Basis suspended tables but it doesn't mean that all suspension is evil. Take the Goldmund Reference for example, its one of the finest tts ever made and its suspended. Regarding acrylic, most Teres tables are also fully or part acrylic, I'm not saying that I like them but you do! High quality acrylic isn't all bad if used correctly, the Reference's platter is a sandwich of metal and acrylic but it doesn't have any of the sonic defects associated with this material today. I agree with acrylic's coloration when it comes to many popular tables these days. Its probably because they use acrylic for cheapness of design and production rather than anything else.
>>I've never heard anyone call the Basis bearing "loose"<<
I said that because the bearings are loose. Please go and play with one of their tables and you'll see what I mean. People are buying up these things and never questioning their quality due to lack of experience or because of some review. There's no mystery here, pick one up in your hand and judge it like you would any other object costing thousands. Ignoring the brand propaganda could you pay that much money for anything else made this way?
Here I must concur with Ken that there are other brands with the same faults. What I disagree with is his blanket dismissal of high mass tables, again its all a question of design and implementation. Some of the best turntables ever made have all been high mass units.
Mama |
Doug,
I guess I need to clarify my 60hz-70hz comment, I know the B&W published specs, but that's not the same as true bass. Of all the speakers that I know I can only think of a couple which can do even 40hz of real bass. As Raul so nicely explained, bass is extremely difficult to reproduce and it has all to do with physics. You need volume to reproduce bass and most speakers are too small to do that, only something the size of a Wilson Grand Slamm can start to approach 40hz bass, that's if your room can support it. Low bass is going to be a bitch, the best sub 40hz bass I've heard was from giant horns of 7-8 meters long, even then there was precious little below 25hz. I'm not counting fundamental frequencies, just true bass. I'm sure you've seen a pipe organ or two in churches, please note the size of the pipes that reproduce the low notes!
Raul- You mentioned subwoofers that could reproduce proper low bass, what have you heard?
Mama |
