Blindjim, Do not let it go so fast, Biamping does work and to very good extent. I really like tube mids.
Just use the Xover in your speakers, they were designed with them and you should keep them, just add a tubed amp in the mids and highs, and an SS on the bottom, use a passive preamp like the EVS attenuators or the Luminous Audio preamp on the bass amp and let the tubed amp run free. The speaker xover will allow your speakers to do their job properly. You will win much more definition and dynamics on both bass and mids, you will get the "tubed" sound on the mids.
Since the power needed for mids and highs is much less you can do with a simpler push pull amp with a coule of power tubes per side, these have better definition to my ears that huge monster tube amps with 6 or 8 tubes per side, wich is what you will need if you decide to go tubes without biamping (these are much more expensive also!)
So finally from the preamp add a "Y" connector to the tube amp on one side and to the mids and highs; on the other connector to the passive preamp and the bass SS amp, that way you can adjust the volume needed on the bass amp.
Once you get the hang of it you can add a passive line level Xover (PLLXO) on the tube amp to avoid getting low freq. into it (say from 100hz up) that will help the amps a lot, more definiftion and dinamics again.
If you like symphonic music this is the best way to go!
If you are into girl with guitar music you dont really need biamping.
I am not biamping right now since my new speakers wont let me, and I miss it, I am thinking on adding a pair of subwoofers and a PLLXO on my tube amps....
Do try it! |
This is a pretty famous Active Xover I guess High End though I never used it myself:
http://www.marchandelec.com/xovers.html
This is Passive option:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
All the Best |
Sorry PLLXO:
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html |
I feel like the little devil on Blindjim´s shoulder....
Do biamplify It is great you wont regret it!!!
It is really not that difficult, I would not change the speakers a bit, leave alone the speakers Xover just get the amps to run better, active or passive line level Xover is good...
This is a hobbie right? We do crazy things to achieve better sound..So get your hands dirty and work on it!!
Trust me it is great!
Cheers |
I dont really see the point of biamping if you are using the same amps, I have done it and the difference was really minor, go tube for the upper range.
Yes the best Ultimate way to Biamp is to open up your speakers and pull the XOver out and wire each driver directly, remember you then have to use 3 amps, one for each driver that is woofer, mids and tweeter, wait you have two woofers there make that 4 amps! While your at it change the wire going into each driver and by the way add some blue tack to the frames of the drivers. Leave the wire long enough so you can hard wire directly to the amps terminals. Do use silver wire for mids-tweeter and copper for both woofers. You can also use different interconnects from the active XO to each amp, I would recommend Nordost for mids and tweeter amps and Siltech for the bass amps.
Of course you can start slowly and enjoy each step of the way! No other system will sound better to you.
I would start the easiest and cheapest way possible, see if I like the changes and do some more. Say get a nice tube amp, there is a new Genesis amp push-pull with 6550 tubes that I think would sound wonderful, it was designed with biamping in mind, or say a McIntosh 275 or 240 amps. and just "dual-amp biwire" it, If you like this for the amount of 2 bucks you can make a passive line level XO, which is what most gung-ho biampers recommend (check the Oris speaker website) some say first order is the best (Romy the cat). Before buying an Active Xover I would probably change the values on the tube amp coupling capacitor and resistor to avoid low freq. this would be the most purist way to do it (I have done it) you also avoid another set of ICs which is not only expensive but detrimental to sound (not to mention the damage an active Xover will bring to the system) Now for the tweeter amp the line level Xover didnt really worked all the way up, the best thing there would be to add a cap between the tweeter and the amp (Hovland?). I would use the active Xover for the bass amps, there is where the passive original Xover does the most damage! Those huge caps and huge inductors are no good!
Be brave and do it! |
I am sorry Blindjim to scare you like this, but this is what it means when somebody talks about using an active Xover to change slopes or Xover points, and bipassing the speakers XOver.
Like I said on my first post:
Just use the Xover in your speakers, they were designed with them and you should keep them, just add a tubed amp in the mids and highs, and an SS on the bottom, use a passive preamp like the EVS attenuators or the Luminous Audio preamp on the bass amp and let the tubed amp run free. The speaker xover will allow your speakers to do their job properly.
I recommended a passive attenuator to match the gain on both amps, it is always best to "loose" some definition on the bass than on the mids, that is why the volume should be adjusted on the SS amp. To add an active stage (active XO) just for this would take away from the signal, because of this Marchand Electronics made a Bass Correction EQ :
http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html
Which is like an Active Xover for bass only, adding some other niceties... and leaving the mid and high source as pure as possible.
"I can add another pair of ICs... another amp... maybe make a move in changing out my speaker cables"
That is all it takes!
"I'd even go so far as to add another device like an outboard X over"
This would be good also, I would use the bass correction thingy for "bass" and a passive line level XO for the only other amp: the tube amp.
If you love this too much, in a couple of years you will be gutting your speakers to tear away the original Xover and hard wire....and maybe not, I wouldnt do it....I would get horns for that!!!
All the Best! |
Let me try and put some order (into my thoughts at least) on biamping:
As seen before there are various methods for biamping with different results:
1:Dual-amp biwire (nice new term) which is achieved without any freq, limitation on both amps, both amps "amplify the full signal" These method uses forcibly the speakers internal Xover.
1a-Dual-amp biwire with same amps being paralel or series would be just more of the same, yes more power supplies so also more dynamics and more power, same sound. If it is two tube amps the bass will still be a little "undefiend" if its two SS amps the top will be "grainy" (you can change these adjectives as you please...undefined and grainy are just MHO)
*No gain (volume) matching devices needed.
*Use speakers internal Xover
1b-Dual-amp biwire with different amps where you get the sonic benefits and performance of different type of amps; for example: Tubes on top and SS on bottom.
*Gain (volume) matching devices needed.
*Use speakers internal Xover
2- Passive Simple Biamping, Lets agree that for this you need to limit the freq. going into at least one amp.
*These method would still need the speakers internal XOver
* High pass, to avoid this amp to overwork with bass freq.
*Low pass avoiding mid and higher freq. on the amp. (Big SS amps dont really need to get rid of highs)
*These Xover should be Passive at Line Level before the amps.
*Gain (volume) matching devices needed
3- Active Simple Biamping, Limit freq. going into at least one amp.
If you have satellite monitors and a subwoofer, this could be active simple biamping, since you are using a dedicated bass amp inside the subwoofer. You can also use an EQ for the bass amp which would act like low pass and add a little punch and extension on the lower freq. (nice!)
*These method would still need the speakers internal Xover (because it is simple)
* High pass, to avoid this amp to overwork with bass freq.
*Low pass avoiding mid and higher freq. on the amp.
*These Xover should be Active at Line Level before the amps. Gain (volume) matching devices are usually built into the active Xover.
4- Extreme Biamping, Triamping etc.
*You will need one amp for each driver and there should be only wire going from each amp to the driver.
(An exemption to the rule could be tweeter which could have a passive Xover between amp and tweeter.)
*For this method you cannot use the Speakers internal Xover, It would not be recommended to use a designer speaker since there would really be no point to rip out the original designer Xover to play around. This method would be recommended for DIY speakers such as Lowther drivers with bass, Horn systems, Professional PA systems etc.
* Line level Xover can be Passive, Active or a Mix of them depending on Amp-Driver combination used.
*Gain (volume) matching devices needed |
Hello Zormi,
Though I always recommend biamping I would agree that it is best to finish your room and listen to your new system enjoy each step of the way....
I am also finishing my audio room these days! and am also waiting to try new things I have a pair of subwoofers I want to try as a biamping alternative and probably a new better transport! But the first thing will be to listen at my system as it was when I took it apart. |
"Why not put all the money In a ecxellent stereo amplifier, instead of several lesser units with signal degrading from external crossover units."
First of all it is my impression that there are no Excellent stereo amps, excellent would apply only to mono amps...
What would a lesser or excelent amp be?
An excellent amp with 8 tubes per side on push pull? Thats a lot of tubes, and they do sound like it...IMNSHO a pair of pushpull tubes is best smaller is better then.
Also you get more power supplies with 4 monoblocks that with one stereo amp. I have even seen diagrams (and almost tried one) of one amplifier with a power supply per stage of amplification....that would make it 8 power supplies against...well one.
What we are also trying to avoid is the internal Speaker Xover and use line level XO inside each amp....cool!!
Do Bi-amp |
