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Interconnect Directionality
Have I lost my mind? I swear that I am hearing differences in the direction I hook up my interconnect cables between my preamp and power amp. These are custom built solid core silver cables with Eichmann bullet plugs. There is no shield so this is not a case where one end of the cable’s shield is grounded and the other isn’t.
There are four ways ways to hook them up:
Right: Forward. Left: Forward.
Right: Backward. Left: Backward
Right: Forward. Left: Backward
Right: Backward. Left: Forward.
There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:
When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more.
What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
There are four ways ways to hook them up:
Right: Forward. Left: Forward.
Right: Backward. Left: Backward
Right: Forward. Left: Backward
Right: Backward. Left: Forward.
There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:
When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more.
What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
You will pardon me for saying so but you appear to have a reading comprehension problem. I’ve explained it twice. You still don’t get it. I suggest you sit this one out and let someone else get involved. Your so-called arguments are nothing more than Wiki cut and paste truisms, a word which you appear to be totally unfamiliar with. A truism is a statement of fact but a fact that doesn’t disprove or even dispute the contention you find objectionable. The sky is blue is an example of a truism. I suspect you are just in knee jerk mode. Well to the BIG Leagues, slugger! |
I already explained what I meant by BIG, maybe you were too busy flapping your gums, but I don’t mind explaining it again. It’s BIG because - if true, the directionality of wire in a fuse or speaker cables, for example, means that ALL wire in the entire system is directional. I’m not even trying to PROVE wire is directional. I’m simply suggesting if it is, then look at the logical conclusion. But since some audiophiles are knee-jerk reactionaries they refuse to listen. But if they did listen they would be able to make BIG strides in improving their system’s sound. Which they won’t, because they would rather fight about it. How’s that? Do you see what I meant by BIG now? All of that from one tiny wire in a fuse. That’s BIG! |
I don’t know why newbies waltz in 🕺🏻here thinking they’re the smartest guy in the room. Looks like this a a stubborn case and will take some education, the one he didn’t get in school. By the way, you haven’t made any real arguments. So I can hardly dispute them. The ones you did make I disputed. You have been pounding your chest a lot, though. |
No, I did not create the theory. Nor did I create reality. Reality is there to be discovered if a person is really interested in doing so. Take off your blinders and SEE! 👀 I’m glad you agree with with me about the wire asymmetry. Som there is still room for my theory, right? 😀 The first step in recovery is recognizing the problem. 🤗 I’m not saying directionality is all that matters. That’s an illogical argument. Of course there are other issues. Duh! But wire directionality is actually BIG because all cabling, speaker wiring, transformer wiring, capacitor wires, etc. are ....you guessed it, DIRECTIONAL. So we’re a long way from what is possible you know, sound wise. Follow? |
Semantics Argument. You say electrons produce induced E and H fields. I say it’s the current that creates them. It’s the Right Hand Rule in action! But the point is, setting aside semantic arguments for a moment, and cutting to the chase, directionality in wire is due to physical asymmetry of the wire. And we are only interested in the signal, current, electrons whatever you wish to call it, moving toward the speakers. That’s why one should CONTROL wire for directionality during manufacture of the cables. Failing that, the end user should always try fuses, speaker cables, digital cable, interconnects, BOTH WAYS 🔛 to see which way sounds better. Follow? |
Yes, push and pull is correct. That’s why I wrote it. The same idea is TRUE for power cords and fuses, too. Any wire in an AC circuit. That’s why power cords and fuses exhibit directionality. Including fuses in speakers. That’s why the statement, “All wire is directional,” must be TRUE. And why the common statement, “Wire or fuses in AC circuits can’t be directional because the signal goes both ways,” is FALSE. |
atdavid There is nothing "to prove", though this would typically be later year electrical engineering, engineering physics, physics material related to electricity so it is not surprising that many people do not know it. Asking me to prove it is like asking me to prove 1+1 = 2. It just is. However, let’s go point by point (all 2 of them).
Those two statements are truisms, and no one ever said they aren’t true, at least I didn’t. But it’s like saying the sky is blue. It isn’t really evidence - much less proof - that my explanation of how current in the speaker cables or any AC circuit works is not true. There is power at one + or - wire at a time. It is never simultaneous. Even for high frequency AC at 20 kHz or whatever. One wire pushes the speaker out, the other wire pulls it back. When hooked up out of phase the opposite occurs. You can also say the electrons are the charge carriers, but they are not the current, which is the charge per unit time at a given location along the wire. You can come up with many definitions. The E and B fields are dependent on - are a function of - the electromagnetic wave that travels through the conductor. |
Let’s summarize, shall we? “Speakers work by converting electrical energy into mechanical energy (motion). ...In speakers, a current is sent through the voice coil which produces an electric field that interacts with the magnetic field of the permanent magnet attached to the speaker.” So, it’s current that provides the energy to the voice coils, current that alternates between the + and - wires. Whilst traveling toward the speaker on + wire current travels in the opposite direction on the - and vice versa. Thus, only the outgoing current - i.e., toward the speakers 🔜 - affects the sound of the speakers. The ingoing current - the current going toward the amplifier 🔙 - does not (rpt not) affect the sound. The current alternates at the “instantaneous frequency” of the audio waveform. See, that wasn’t so difficult, was it? |
Breaking Gnus!! 🐃 🐃 🐃 More good stuff from the author of....you guessed it! Zen and the Art of Debunkery. The terms professional debunkers and “knee-jerk skeptics” are not intended to disparage anyone here on this thread, of course. 🙄 “While informed skepticism is an integral part of the scientific method, professional debunkers — often called “kneejerk skeptics” — tend to be skeptics in name only, and to speak with little or no authority on the subject matter of which they are so passionately skeptical. At best, debunkers will occasionally expose other people’s errors; but for the most part they purvey their own brand of pseudoscience, fall prey to their own superstition and gullibility, and contribute little to the actual advancement of knowledge. As such, they well and truly represent the Right Wing of science. To throw this reprobate behavior into bold — if somewhat comic — relief, I have composed a useful “how-to” guide for aspiring debunkers. This manual includes special sections devoted to debunking extraterrestrial intelligence, alternative healing methods, astrology and “free energy.” I spotlight these fields not because I necessarily support all related claims, but because they are among the most aggressively and thoughtlessly debunked subjects in the whole of modern history. Many of the debunking strategies laid bare here have been adapted nearly verbatim from the classic works of history’s most remarkable debunkers. Though they often cross the threshold of absurdity under their own steam, I confess I have nudged a few across it myself for the sake of making a point. As for the rest, their fallacious reasoning, fanatical bigotry, twisted logic and sheer goofiness will sound frustratingly familiar to those who have dared explore beneath oceans of denial and disingenuousness, and have attempted in good faith to report their observations.” |
Controlled double blind tests are right out of the Middle Ages. The same sort of thing was employed to determine whether a woman was a witch or not. She was tied with a rope and thrown into the river. If she floated she wasn’t a witch. If she sank she was a witch. It’s the same thing with a double blind test. If the test fails the device under test is a hoax. Or so they say. We know how “they” is. It used to be the Church back in Medieval Times, now it’s Science. We’ve been double blinded ....by Science! 😎 https://youtu.be/ivoK4ArgZDE |
roberttcan There is an assumption (often a self assumption) that certain "audiophiles" have golden ears, and hence they use all these "tweaks" because they have super-human hearing and can hear differences the rest of us cannot. The reality is that it is equally plausible that what they really have is a higher susceptibility to suggestion, self suggestion, and confirmation bias. At this point is it hard to argue that the latter is not the more likely case, as most of these claims fall apart when the ability to see/know the change is remove from the equation. >>>>Well shut my mouth and call me corn pone! I wouldn’t have believed if I didn’t see it with my own eyes. The best use of Strawman arguments all week - and there’s been a bunch, frequently by you know who. I don’t think I’ve seen so many logical fallacies jammed into one paragraph. Bravo! 🤗 A mite presumptuous, don’t you think? |
Somebody and I won’t mention any names didn’t understand Roberttcan the question. The question has little do with directionality per se but is a very general question. What is the audio signal? Hint - it’s not the audio waveform. Or is it? You tell me. There are many reasons why the audio signal can be degraded or improved, no? Better interconnects, better power cords, better amplifier, isolation and other tweaks. So, gentle readers, what change occurs to the “audio signal” that would improve or degrade it? In order to answer that question you have to know what the “audio signal” is, specifically, one would imagine. |
jea48 geoffkait @geoffkait LOL Tell you what Geoff, LOL. I’ll pay you $5 bucks, (payable by PayPal gift), if you can find any credible evidence that says the signal energy EM wave travels both directions as it flows at near the speed of light from the source to the load. Geoff, there’s an easy $5 bucks to be made..... >>>>>>Thanks, anyway, I prefer not to get involved in speculation. 🤡 But now that you mention it, it appears we’re back where we started about a month ago, actually longer. I’ve been asking, even gave some pop quizzes, if anyone knows or would like to speculate exactly WHAT specifically gets distorted and/or gets noisier when the wire or fuse is in the “wrong direction.” What is the “audio signal” prior to the speakers? Obviously after that is the acoustic audio waveform. Even die hard skeptics can offer answers. You don’t have to believe in directionality at all. I am including the power cord, too. What is the AUDIO SIGNAL? Nobody seems to know. Here are the candidates, feel free to add others, 1. The audio waveform 2. The current 3. The voltage 4. The power 5. The timing 6. The electromagnetic wave 7. Electrons 8. Photons 9. The Poynting vectors, E and H (electric and magnetic fields) |
The trouble I have with blind tests or any tests really is their inherent fallibility. So many things can go wrong. If the results are negative it could very well be for any of the following reasons. This is not intended to be a complete list. The system has one or more errors in it. The system is not revealing enough. The subject is not capable of hearing the difference. The test software is out of polarity or just plain not good enough to reveal differences. Cabling and or electronics are either brand new or not broken in or not earned up properly. Weather issues mask the audible differences. Tests can be easily rigged to produce negative results. On the other hand, if results of a test are positive, I might be more inclined to think something might be going on since positive results were obtained IN SPITE of all the pitfalls. But, generally to be convincing tests should be repeatable and transferable. One test has very little significance especially if the results are negative. If no tests are done at all then someone making bold claims that controlled blind tests will prove such as such is just plain absurd. |
roberttcan I spent some time yesterday trying to find any credible evidence that the EM wave flows back and as it moves from the source to the load at near the speed of light, (in a vacuum). I found nothing. And I mean nothing at all that supported your claim. Not even the slightest mention. >>>>>Wikipedia to the rescue! How often we see this type of statement by a skeptic - “I could find nothing at all that supported your claim.” That’s gold, Jerry, gold! 🤗 But you’d be sure and tell us if you did, right? Wink, wink! |
I’m a fan of LIGO, have been for twenty years. Why else to you think I would post so much on LIGO? I corresponded with Kip Thorne back then. By no mere coincidence I am the designer of the first 6 degree of freedom Sub-Hertz isolation platform for audio applications which, if you can believe if, used a single 5 inch tall airspring. The rest of your pseudo skeptic ramblings I choose to ignore. |
roberttcan THE ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS .... you know, the ones that make 100GHz cables, that ones that put gigabits through twisted pairs, the ones that developed the HDMI standard, the people who make measurements systems, all the ones where real bits, real SNR, real waveform shape = money, the ones whose customers have sophisticated test and measurement equipment, etc. etc. would never ever claim, except where a directional shield is concerned, or there is an intentional passive element built a cable, that, within the framework of audio, that directionality of an interconnect has any detectable difference in the sound. >>>>That’s what makes the whole directionality thing so interesting - that it IS audible. It’s as plain as the nose on your face. All wire is directional. Simple tests can be performed by any REAL skeptic, someone who was interested in getting to the bottom of things rather than a pseudo skeptic who prefers debating endlessly. 🔛 All you need is an open mind, and a little curiosity, you know, parts of the scientific method sometimes conveniently forgotten. Follow the arrows. 🔚 |
OK, this conversation has officially bottomed out. 🔚 Let’s hear a little from the professionals on the dodgy subject of is there or is there not directionality 🔛 in wire. You have to ask yourself, why would somebody go to all the trouble, and expense, of controlling directionality for speaker cables, interconnects power cords, HDMI cables, Ethernet cables? Does anyone really believe they’re running a scam? Is this some foul hoax perpetrated on naive gullible audiophiles to squeeze them dry of their hard earned cash? That doesn’t make any sense. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Come on, people! Hel-loo! Deprogrammers are standing by. Exhibit 1 - AudioQuest on directionality https://www.audioquest.com/theory-education/article/83-directionality-its-all-about-noise |
roberttcan jea48, Unfortunately, the real answer to what carries the signal is pretty complex, but sometimes an analogy is best. What propagates the signal is an electromagnetic wave. The electromagnetic wave is induced by a voltage potential. The energy is technically "carried" in the electromagnetic wave. It is not even carried in the wire, but in the field around the electrons (and wire), but that does not mean that at audio frequencies esoteric dielectrics for wire make any practical difference. That wave induces electron flow in a given direction. Current, by definition is the flow of electrons, but what really happens is more complex. >>>>Sorry, that’s actually incorrect. The electric and magnetic fields generated by the current are obviously outside the conductor, and are orthogonal to each other, but they are not the electromagnetic wave, which travels inside the wire. The magnetic field obeys the right hand rule, of course. That’s what causes the change in sound according to direction of the wire, which is physically slightly asymmetrical. The signal is the electromagnetic wave, not the induced electric and magnetic fields. Better luck next time. |
It’s pretty clear you haven’t been paying attention to what I’ve been saying. You have an answer for everything. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. The reason I mention fuses so often is because understanding fuse directionality is the portal to understanding wire and cable directionality. |
Things are worse than that ( connectors). A lot worse. In a nut shell all wire is directional. I am not the one who did it so don’t blame me. I did not invent reality. That’s why all cables and power cords and fuses are directional. That’s also why digital cables are directional. That’s why foreword thinking companies like Audioquest and Goertz and Anti Cables control directionality of cables from the get go. You have to honor the inherent natural directionality of wire. 🔜 HDMI Cables, Ethernet cables are also directionality. There is a separate issue with shielding but ideally the shielding direction should conform to the wire directionality. Same with connectors, if they are in fact directional, which they may be. Who knows? So, to summarize, all wire is directional and all wire in everything should be controlled for directionality, speaker internal wire, transformers, capacitors, internal component wiring. You name it. |
Think of it like fuses. If you have, say, four fuses in the system and don’t know whether they’re in the right direction or not, check the fuses one at a time by listening for which direction sounds best. It will be easier to do this as you go along. As more fuses are in the right direction the clearer the sound will be. And therefore easier to tell which direction is correct for the last couple fuses. Raise your hand if you still don’t understand. |