Chel,
YEah, I have the tubes that they use in the Mag.
Do you have a Tempest MAg? |
Chelillingsworth: Have you heard both at home?
That's where the real decisions get made...
I think it's hard to tell until you live with a piece on your own time for a while, usually the loaner period that the nicer dealers allow is only enough to get a rough idea.
Currently the system at chez '13 is as follows:
Rega Planet>Audioquest Python>Tempest OR SLI80 Siggy>Audioquest SA-40(silver,15 gauge) double biwire>B&W Nautilus 805.
Say what you might, but I'm keeping the Rega ;, even though it retails for half of what my cables retail for!!!
Again, right now, The Rogue sounds more like real music being played in a real space. I know, if you only own one, it may be tough to be unbiased, as some previous threads will clearly show. I think that both of these integrated amps are stupendous, and at the used price point of $1400-$1700, I doubt you could do any better.
The thing is, some people might prefer the stock Cary to the stock Rogue. Some people might not care as much about soundstage depth as I do. And, come on, the Rogue is far from ugly, but the Cary is absolutely sexual.(I have actual opinions from actual college coeds, law school ain't all bad) THis might matter more to some people, than it does to me.
I fear that what is going to happen is that once I get the Sovtek 6922 crap out of there, the Cary will transform, and smoke the Tempest. At which point, the logical next step is to go Magnum on the Tempest, but if the Magnum is NOT better than the Cary, I will obviously keep the Cary, and most likely NOT be able to get $650 MORE (the cost of admission into Magnum status) than what I could get for the stocker Tempest when/if I sell the Rogue Magnum Tempest. Whereas, if I like the Magnum better, I can get probably 95% of my money out of the Cary, and lose a bit more on the tubes...
So, either way, the experiment is going to get expensive...
But, I seriously doubt that anyone has compared the Magnum to a tweaked Sli-80 signature in a familiar system, with no time constraints, at their leisure, so I'm willing to take a hit to the wallet for "science"
AS I have previously stated, in my system, for the above mentioned reasons, if a person is going to buy one of these and NOT roll tubes, the Rogue is a better value and sounds better TO ME IN MY SYSTEM.
However, I can't imagine someone reading this post that wouldn't want some nice NOS tubes smiling back at them...
And, to recap, I'm not necessarily looking for the best value, but the best remote controlled tubed integrated amp at the used price mentioned above, plus a bit for tubes.
So, we shall see what happens next... Anyone want to donate some 6sn7 or 6922 tubes for the sake of science? (big "ups" to Dekay) |
Chelillingsworth, you don't like Rega and you don't like Cary- that's fine by me, and you might be right(I'm assuming that you'v tried them in your system, and that they were the only variable being changed) but in my house, you might find yourself eating some crow along with those statements...Until you have tried a piece of gear in your home, you just don't know.
The "I own this, it is the best" attitude is not one that I respect or perpetuate. I stand by my above statements regarding what sounds better to me and why.
As previously mentioned, I'm doing this as an educational experience, and I invited anyone with any useful info to contribute. If you think what you have to say is useful, then by all means, contribute...
|
Ok. Fine. Buckingham and Chelly don't like the planet. Fine.
I just started a "Buckingham and Chelillingsworth think G13's Rega Planet sucks" thread on AudioAsylum. Why don't you boys go over there and fan your flames.... |
thanks, guys. Keep it coming!! |
Anyway,
Thanks for all the comments, guys.
I threw the Rogue back in last night, and (no NOS tubes received for the Cary yet) I am confident that the Cary, while certainly MORE transparent and possessing a more capable drive than the Rogue, simply sounds more like HiFi, whereas the Rogue sounds more like music. My opinions of the Rogue v Cary sound seem to be in absolute conflict with Chelly's ideas, but hey, that's what makes my ears golden, and Chelly's brass (JUST KIDDING, REALLY). Anyway, I'm waiting on some 40's vintage 7308's and 6sn7, as well as some loaners from 2 of the coolest members of Audiogon (you know who you are). I think that once I get the Cary going with some nice tubes, it will shine. I shudder to think what would happen if I could keep the much more neutral sound of the Cary and it's superior drive and transparency, but get the presence, and soundstaging of the Rogue... Anyone interested in the TOPIC of this thread, please stay tuned, as I promise to document this competition fully, and hopefully get some other locals involved, so as to get the all important second opinion. |
I got some loaner Amperex 7308s from Dekay (thanks David) and some loaner Sylvania 6sn7-GTB from Musicdoc (thanks John)and put 'em in the Cary. This was a BIG help. THe upper level harshness is gone, and there is some more air, and more depth to the soundstage. OK. The depth is not quite as deep as the Rogue, which still sounds more natural, however, I have noticed that the bass of the Rogue in ultralinnear isn't as tight as the Cary's bass, even when the Cary is run in Triode.
Rogue Tempest:
A really natural tone, a but fuzzy, good presentation (soundstage deep but confined laterally to the space between the speakers with most recordings), a bit laid back, perhaps a tad rolled off, somewhat languid, pace-wise, and somewhat loose, somewhat bloated bass.
Cary Sli-80 Signature:
Less natural sounding (JUST A BIT), no Fuzz whatsoever, good presentation (soundstage wider but not quite as deep) Images, while more defined, sound more artificial, not laid back, Even throughout the frequency range, nice pace, (a toe-tapper for sure), and nice, tight bass.
So, until I cn find some nice warm 6922 tubes, the Rogue still has my heart, if not my Audiophile brain. |
OK!!!
I FINALLY received the tubes for the Cary.... Sylvania VT-231 (6sn7),NOS 40's vintage, and some more Amperex 7308s.
WHile I was waiting, Dekay's 7308 (also Amperex) have opened up nicely, (I wonder if he used them at all?) and Musicdoc's Sylvania 6sn7 GTB tubes sounded pretty fine as well.
Basically, after a week of listening ONLY to the Cary, I was in Heaven. Clean, Clear, accurate sound. I really started to like the Cary.
About 2 weeks ago, I had the pleasure of seeing Nickel Creek in concert in a relatively small hall in Columbia, SC. I went straight home and played their CD, which contains a live track. Sound, timbre, air, all almost exactly like what I had just heard!! AMAZING.
HOWEVER. Upon listening to the Rogue, again, I was awash in all the emotions of being there in the flesh, what the voices sound like, the ambiance of the hall, if a bit colored, was so engulfing...
The Cary is like a picture of a Jackson Pollack painting, taken with a Zeiss lens, and printed on the best paper. Pure. Accurate. Completely and totally representative of what was in front of that expensive lens when the shutter snapped open.
The Rogue is more akin to standing in front of a Jackson Pollack painting in morning light with someone else's glasses on. Immediately you can appreciate the majesty, the size, the texture; the colors aren't the same as through the Zeiss lens in perfect light, and are perhaps a bit blurred, but upon gazing for a brief time, your eyes adjust, and you see it clearly. The difference is night and day.
THe new tubes are a step foreward, but I don't think it's going to change this Pinot Noir to a Shiraz.(preference)
Unless something drastic happens re: the new tubes, I'm keeping the Rogue, which seems to love music just a bit more than the Cary.
as always, YMMV.
Joe |
Thanks to all who posted.
I have sold the Cary, due to my perception of superior imaging in the Rogue.
After thinknig about it, it seems like the Cary sounded pretty good once I was able to get 10 or more feet away from the speaker plane. The stage starts at the same plane, and doesn't go Back quite alot, whereas with the Rogue, the soundstage is a bit more "laid back" literally, as it is 2-4 feet behind the plane of the speakers.
Big deal (for most people), however, I have a wierd room, which forces me to listen nearfield. AND the Nautilus speakers sound best (imaging, soundstaging) in a roughly 6 foot equlateral triangle. AND I have some wierd hearing/psychoacoustical/visual phenomenon which shifts a center image to the left if I'm (1) too far away from the speaker plane, (2)when I'm in an "altered" state of consciousness (hehe). SO for me, to reduce paranoia and trips to the hearing doctor (great, symmetrical, hearing, by the way) I like to stick to the nearfield setup.
So, thanks again, and for me, the beautiful sound of the Cary (at least, with a change in input tubes currently retailing for $225) still couldn't image and throw a deep stage like the 'ol Rogue, which wasn't quite as beautiful sounding (stock tubes, though) but possessive of an emminently more realistic presentation.
the end.... |
