Assuming your power amp has no trouble driving your speakers and it doesn't do anything really bad sonically, I would say that the preamp is easily more important. Just to give a rough example, if I had $5000 to spend on both pieces, at least $3000 would go to the preamp. Keep in mind, though, that this is very general info, and in audio, there are always some exceptions.
If you're on a limited budget and can't afford a really good active preamp, a passive unit is a great alternative. There's nothing worse than having to suffer with a cheap active line stage. Especially if you're new to high end. Chances are that you won't figure out what the problem is until after you spent a lot of money. |
"
You may not need a stupidly expensive amp for your pre-amp because the speakers you have are extremely efficient, don't need massive power and interact well with your amp, so you can go with a very low power, lesser expensive (not all low power amps are less expensive. I know!!!) amp."
You're missing one point in that example. When you say that not all low power amps are less expensive. I know!!!, you have to ask why that is. When you use extremely efficient speakers, they demand a certain level of quality and experience matching components, or you'll have problems. You really need to know what you are doing when getting into high efficiency speakers. Wouldn't recommend that path for a beginner unless they fully understand what they are getting into, and have someone with experience to help. |
"01-26-15: Mapman
Yes, getting an integrated means an expert matches amp and pre-amp for you."
Not all experts are created equal. lol. |
"01-26-15: Dtc
Of course, for the computer audio crowd these days, the rage is to remove the pre-amp and just have a good output stage and volume control in the DAC. This is basically the old passive pre-amp idea. I am still of the mind that the pre-amp matters, assuming levels and impedance match up OK. But lots of people are going without pre-amps these days. As to integrateds, one of the old standards the Naim Nait 5 is passive, it has no pre-amp state in it. They just concentrate on the power amp section."
There's really nothing wrong going directly to an amp either. Its just a matter of how well its implemented and what you're personal preference is. I've been using Wadia CD players for years. I can get good sound with or without a preamp.
Your Naim example is excellent. If there was ever a case to be made about using a passive in a budget integrated, the Nait 5i I had was it. That thing was nothing short of a train wreck. One of the worst pieces of audio gear I've ever heard or bought. They just tried to do too much at that price point. Naim should have left it passive. Compare that to my Creek 5350SE that used a passive preamp in it
and there was no comparison. Even though both amps were about the same price, you would never know it based on SQ. |
"02-01-15: Maplegrovemusic
Here is the answer .what came first ? The chicken ? or the egg ?"
Neither. Its a trick question. The cables came first. |
"I'll agree pre-amp is probably the most important tweak and if you are running a phono you need one.You also need a volume controll. ANd maybe a way to switch multiple input sources if you have those. A pre-amp is just one such device to serve those functions when needed. Other than that, its just a potentially expensive signal processor that is not very flexible compared to the alternatives."
It's certainly a common view, but its probably one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest, why a system will under perform. Most manufacturers will tell you that its much more difficult to build a high quality preamp, then an amp. Also, take into account that the weaker the signal, the more influenced it is by everything in its path. That's why I said in my first post that I would take at least 3k if I had 5k to spend on an amp and preamp, and use the bulk if it for a preamp. Its a more expensive and harder piece to get right. So, just to clarify my example, if I were to spend 3k on an preamp and 2k on an amp, I would be doing so in an attempt to have both pieces that are about equal in quality. And, as always, there can, and will be exceptions to this as to how things play out in different situations. I'm just using it as a general guideline.
"01-31-15: Raks
I think its a toss-up. Isn't it true that a really good amp will make just OK speakers sound their best... but really good speakers will never sound their best with an amp that's not up to the task?"
While its true that a well matched amp will go a long way in getting the most out of a pair of speakers, if you don't have a preamp that is equally good, and well matched to the other components, the system will sound like crap regardless. More important, though, is that most people don't realize that the preamp is the problem when they're system doesn't sound right. If you look through some of the posts on this site where members are asking for advice on cables, tubes and many other accessories or tweaks, its usually a good indicator that at least some of the problems are due to not having the right preamp. |
"I see. I always thought it was the amp not driving the speakers properly, and that the amp was introducing its own set of colorations."
That's true, as well. But for the purposes of this discussion as to how important the preamp is, we're assuming the amp in question is getting the basics right. I can't speak for anyone else, but I made that qualification in my first post. It was actually the first thing I said.
"01-26-15: Zd542
Assuming your power amp has no trouble driving your speakers and it doesn't do anything really bad sonically, I would say that the preamp is easily more important."
So the basis for my discussion begins with an amp that is sufficient enough to get the basics right. Actually, now that we are looking at this again, all the components need to get the basics right. If you have a bad or mismatched component, it can ruin the sound of the whole system, regardless of how good the other components are. Sorry if there was any confusion on that point. Hopefully, my comments make a bit more sense now. |
I don't disagree with your overall point Al, but I think this thread may be of more use to the OP than you may think. If the OP wants to get into high end audio, he might as well see what it is first hand. We all disagree on issues, sometimes greatly. The reason for this is that we all have different tastes, there's a huge variety in equipment, huge differences in price, component matching is critical, and most importantly, the real possibility of spending a lot of money and failing. Audio is very hands on, and its not easy. Most new people don't realize, generally speaking, that as the price goes up, the more difficult it is to put a system together. That's very counter-intuitive to what the average person with little experience may think. Even if we are not directly answering the OP's question, hopefully he can read between the lines on some of this, and consider some issues that he may not have otherwise. How many times have we read posts where people with little experience go out and buy something expensive, and end up struggling with it because it wasn't a good choice? To the OP's credit, he has been responding, so if he's not clear on something, or has other questions, it looks like he won't have a problem raising an issue. |
"New in the field. I am wondering what is most important: a great amplifier with a good preamplifier, or a good amp, with a great preamplifier? Or should I look at a good amp with a great do certain brands make amplifier to go with preamplifier and receivers?
Thank you kindly.
Rockanroller"
You will never admit this to yourself, but your attitude will never let you succeed. Ever. You'll hear something that will sound good to you, but you will never let yourself enjoy it because you're committed to believe some crap test from the 70's that you probably didn't even read. Since when does Mr. Carver speak for the entire audio industry. And your vast knowledge of the human auditory system is no doubt, at the cutting edge of science.
Unfortunately, your attitude is becoming more common with people, almost on a daily basis. All the sudden you become an expert in a field because you read an article or 2. (I'm assuming you can read. I'll give you credit for that). But in the end, the only thing that you've proven is that you know how to make a fool out of yourself. In your first post, you claim to be new to audio. And now all of the sudden, you're at the cutting edge of what's possible. Sometimes I laugh at people when they try to pull this sort of thing, but in your case, I honestly can't. I feel like I would be making fun of a handicap person. I'm not kidding either. I really mean that.
"I can already feel the wave of outrage from all the AUDIOPHILES coming at me....OHLALA!"
So? Who cares anyway? If I were you, I would be more concerned with having some respect for myself. If you can't do that, you'll continue to lose. |
"You off your meds again ;-) Give the guy a break. We wring our hands about the shortage of new blood in this hobby and then someone new comes along and you $hit all over him. You're entitled to your opinion and even to express it honestly, but that was a little bit over the top (IMO)."
Normally, I would agree, but in this case I think my comment was justified. The OP starts the thread claiming to be new to audio and is looking for advice. Nothing wrong with that. That's what these threads are for. But if you read his last couple of posts, its clear that he wasn't being honest with us. He had his mind made up right from the start. All the sudden, he starts preaching about science and psychology, 2 topics that he clearly knows very little about as you can see from the ridiculous info he references. So, if he was honest with us right from the beginning, that's fine. He didn't do that, and I don't like being tricked. |
Swampwalker,
I've been wrong before, and I may be wrong now, but I still think I called it right. This is how he starts off.
"New in the field. I am wondering what is most important: a great amplifier with a good preamplifier, or a good amp, with a great preamplifier? Or should I look at a good amp with a great do certain brands make amplifier to go with preamplifier and receivers?
Thank you kindly."
How do you go from that, to this?
"After reading some comments on amplifier, I really wonder what mechanical/electrical/audio miracles have been performed , knowing the fact that the laws of Physics are still the same as they were 20/30 years ago, metallurgy has not come up with new alloys, to justify the cost in ten of thousands of dollars. As Mr Carver demonstrated, by building an affordable amplifier, of which the sound could not be distinguished from an extremely expensive name amplifier that was being compared to(mid`s 70 )!
The fact also remains that the human auditory system is very limited in scope, unless your name was Beethoven, or Mile Davis,for example. Just wondering.....So if I was able to spend 5/6 grands on an amplifier, I would probably buy a Carver amp...I can already feel the wave of outrage from all the AUDIOPHILES coming at me....OHLALA!"
He's new in the field, very humble and wants out opinions. It sounds great.
He's gone from being the humble learner just a few short days ago, to having it all worked out on several different fronts scientifically. And now top it all off with a healthy dose of know it all sarcasm. For all I know, you may be right, but to me that last post sounds like someone who came here to teach, and already had their mind made up. |
|
|
|
