How does solo piano help you evaluate audio gear?

@testpilot @chayro Thanks. Piano is important to me, too, so I'd listen for that reason.

I do sometimes listen to music which is not the genre of what I usually listen to, but which nevertheless demonstrates something valuable about the system's abilities which would still be a benefit to me for the listen I do prefer. E.g. Argentinian folk music is not necessarily my thing, but I love American and English folk music. So, clear crossover value of hearing a good Argentinian folk recording as a test.

That's a long-winded way of asking (as I did meant to in my OP) whether the "piano test" has a value which goes beyond the subset of music lovers who like piano.

Good points and very helpful. I went out of my way *not* to ask if it should be the only one. I'm really drilling here for phenomenological details, i.e., descriptions of what one notices in a piano recording that has probative value for a more general conclusion about the capabilities of the system. There is some of that in this post by McGowan.

@brownsfan @lalitk and others -- this is great! Thanks so much. I really do find it helpful in addition (of course) to the human voice. There's no either/or in any of this.

What is hard with pianos is that not having heard the piano in the recording there is a huge "guess factor" as to whether component/speaker A or B is getting "closer" to the original. One thing I heard today, though, which is not compromised by that problem was a piano with high notes that sounded like a toy piano. That clearly is a speaker not dealing well with tonality/overtones.

@nonoise  

If the initial movement (of a key, valve, etc.) is captured, followed by the strike of it, followed by the burst and then bloom, and then the associated spread, decay and reverb, the whole soundstage develops to a degree that can make one momentarily forget they're listening to a recording. 

@whart 
listen to the hammer strike, the initial overtones, and their decay. Instructive in terms of how the system handles the whole sonic envelope, not just wide frequency range

Excellent! I'll listen for this. Well said and thank you.

@cd318  Good point about the reverb and character.

@czarivey  -- right. Drum and note together. Well put.

@edcyn 

massed strings is the true litmus test for determining the ultimate veracity of a system

I think this is what is pushing me beyond my otherwise very nice stand mounts toward a ribbon tweeter tower.  And your caution about fuzzy midrange tone of many pianos is noted. Agree about wanting tonal quality with smaller cost of dynamic hit.

@lalitk Thanks for your notes. I'm not on the verge of my forever speakers -- that will have to wait a couple years for my forever room -- but for now I'm looking for my next speakers. If my present shoot has a clear result, I'll be putting a pair up for sale (or sending one on trial back!)

@brownsfan  -- French horn is a good tip. I've been hearing bassoons and oboes with greater interest but I need to find a good French horn featuring piece. ECM Schiff Beethoven -- got it. ECM is a standard label for other things I use as critical listening.

@mahgister 

Moravce or Feltsman -- thanks. I have heard the Feltsman but will now add it to my list for critical listening.

Chorus -- I've been listening to Nordic 2L tracks and some Chesky. Thanks for the Tallis.

    
@dynamiclinearity -- 

ability to accurately follow all level changes, small to medium to large --Kissin  'Pictures At An Exhibition,.

Thanks!

@jjss49  I have an upright, so not quite the comparandum!

@erictal4075  I have avoided the pipe organ because it seems like it's too difficult for the level of speaker I have. It's like giving a calculus exam to two third graders. Maybe there's something to compare, though. Thank you.

More A/B testing will happen today using these suggestions. Much appreciated.

It's clear to me that with the two speakers I'm comparing, there are strengths to each, and part of the reason I have been looking to piano is that I need a way to show that one speaker is clearly better than the other. I love and will listen to classical piano, so this is not just an academic exercise.

@richopp Clarification understood and appreciated. It seemed pretty clear that recording a piano is difficult, so I was a bit confused by the energy you put into your rebuttal. But we agree! Cheers!

@frogman -- thanks for the rec’s. Will try those.

@jonwatches1

I don’t think piano will be very useful unless you listen to a lot of piano, and already know some good piano music note for note. And there is plenty a Piano cannot tell you.

So, I have said a couple times I’m not using only piano. I repeat that point, for you, here. You’re clearly an outlier about the usefulness of piano, but I cannot adjudicate that. It’s free to try, and many people have said why it’s useful.

As for listening to piano music I know well -- if it’s not well recorded, it would seem I’d be better off with a new piece, well recorded.

@arro222
I do not feel you can use "one instrument" as an evaluator of gear.

Can you please read the thread? FFS.

@richopp
-it ain’t easy no matter WHAT OR WHO says it is, sorry. If you think so, go try it and report back. Otherwise, sorry, but you are ill -informed about the facts, which I know are not popular today as people tend to make up their own.

Um, who are you arguing against? In all caps, no less? I see you’re a Maggie dealer. And you’re pushing them. Noted.

@brownsfan I am going to focus on piano and french horn today. And I’ll keep my own ears in mind, so to speak. Some great recommendations on this list.

@brownsfan  and others, I've been listening to the 1.5 minute piece, "Britten’s Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings."

It's an outstanding test, easy to get to know, and very revealing.

UPDATE:

I listened to a bunch of recordings mentioned today. The piano recordings were unbelievably revealing tools. The power of the Colom recordings and also the Schiff pushed the speakers for dynamics, subtlety, honesty of color, hall reverb, and yes --piano bench noise and the pianist breathing or moving. 

Some passages, it was clear that the hands were separated on the piano -- with the towers. The two way speakers mushed things together a bit.

In other passages, it was the piano's treble region that really brought out differences -- were they rinky-tinky highs or shimmery, ringing highs? That was a clear difference which spoke, again, in favor of the tower.

The French horn pieces were excellent, too. That is an instrument with a lot of condensed complexity -- and quirks. I can see now why it is such a test for speakers.

The more boring of the two speakers, the ribbon tower, did a far better job than the two way stand mount with these instruments. When I added the subs and dialed them in, color and space flooded in while the towers retained their honesty.

I attempt to tell you that as an "evaluator" for sound, that no one instrument be it a piano, guitar, oboe or human voice may by itself, hold utmost importance.

Right. And I said more than once that I was not asking the question, "Which is the *one* instrument to use for evaluation?" Read back through the thread.

When a person garnering attention here turns petulant, I’m out.

When someone responding to a thread turns petulant and leaves, I rejoice.

@jjss49
Agree that the piano is hard to mic, and even in the presence of a piano, it really can throw such a complicated soundscape that it’s hard for any listener -- even a live one -- to judge what constitutes "the" sound of a piano, at least in terms of soundstage. Is the lid open? Is it closed? Where is the listener -- or the microphone -- ideally? It’s so much different in this regard than a more contained instrument such as a guitar or violin.

@arro222

Is it right? no. I’m as imperfect as he.
I am not wired to "turn the other cheek".

Apparently, you’ve got additional wiring. FWIW, glad to see you stuck around and that whatever petulance you perceived in my reaction turned out to not be quite enough to cause you to abandon the thread. (I apologize for my use of FFS. I will try to be nicer.) Glad you still have the will to contribute constructively. Good outcomes for us both, I think.

I took a couple days off of social media to focus on work. Glad to see the thread continues in informative and constructive ways.

@perkri  -- just added the Charlap. Thank you!

@dodgealum  My streaming service doesn't have the Uchida! I'm bummed.

@mahgister  Thanks for the comments about the importance of room. I totally agree, and it's only because I have done enough work on the room that I am comfortable comparing speakers. The factor of the room has been neutralized (enough).

Thanks to others for the suggestions of additional instruments. I have added cello and also some woodwind quintets to my listening repertoire.

A speaker audition is a complex problem that is best solved by simplification.  Piano is a single, more or less full range instrument, whose harmonics are well known to most of us.  You can get to issues like tonal correctness across the audible spectrum and coherence/integration of drivers within a minute or two.  If a speaker fails this, you move on and haven't wasted 2 hrs on a speaker that might seem ok with other types of music, but 6 months and 20K later you want to get rid of.  I've personally not auditioned a speaker that passed the piano test and failed the voice test. My guess is there are none.   But piano won't tell you a lot that you need to know.

@brownsfan  Your recent post is a powerful brief answering the OP question, "Why is piano helpful?" It may also answer the (unasked question), "If you could only evaluate using one instrument, which would it be and why?" and "What provides the fastest assessment tool in the relatively rushed and untreated environment of the brick and mortar store?"

Of course, we are typically *not* forced to use just one instrument, and you're right to reaffirm that piano is not the *only* way -- let's all acknowledge he said that! -- but it is (perhaps) a uniquely powerful way.

I completely agree about reflective surfaces. This is a powerful tool that you've taught me about and which most people don't fully understand. In conjunction with room measurement tools, it is possible to sharpen the soundstage imaging without throwing too much deadening absorption at the room. The system remains focused and lively with the right kind of 12ms-50ms reflections that create the sound of space without smearing the images on the soundstage or creating too much brightness.