Bryoncunningham, when you are assessing whether component x is neutral in any objective sense, you have to use measures that others will agree or valid. If you use multiple measures, you have to further argue how they interface or what weight should be given to each. I have no certainty that we could ever reach any agreement on valid measures. I have no idea whether one speaker would stand apart once we had done all of this. So I totally reject any notion that there is truth independent of persons.
I think the entire discussion is largely irrelevant as people will buy what they like and can afford. |
Bryoncunningham, I agree. |
Mrtennis, I have given up that quest, nor will I trust most who might tell me there is such a speaker. |
Bryoncunningham , You say, "Or my post from yesterday...
People should choose components according to their own preferences, not someone else's.
That is another straw man."
I must admit it is beyond my comprehension what you are saying here, but as we agreed on the other thread, I am dropping this discussion. |
Mapman, I had an experience last night that suggests we have not gotten everything we can out of recordings. Involved was the Sinatra and Basie at the Sands recording. I had gotten it to be very satisfying with improvements in my system over the years, but not to the level of my vinyl.
I got in a prototype of a dac by Exemplar Audio. After two days of break in, last night, I had a very great improvement in what I seek always, realism. I could hear Sinatra moving around, could hear individual instruments in Basie's band, and could hear the audience's presence even when they were quiet. I was thrilled to say the least. I cannot say yet much about this dac, but I will not be really expensive and it uses tubes in the output. |
Mapman, I know all too well that your stance is just giving up. Once you have heard the thrill of realism, you will persist. I only regret that I didn't have this forty years ago with my audio.
I would agree that people's tastes differ, some like what I think is a cop out that their system sound musical. I want a holographic image and brass to sound brassy. Otherwise I might as well listen to an Ipod and MP3 or better get just walk in the woods with no music. |
Orpheus10, I can only imagine trying to determine the "panel of distinguished audiophiles!" I guess I think this effort would be innocuous and irrelevant. I, of course, entirely agree that science cannot contribute here. I think all the following adjective might apply-neutral, real, transparent, dynamic, like being in the recording venue, not smeared, involving, detailed, having pace, having ease, etc. |
Mapman, it is Sinatra and Basie’s Sinatra At The Sands [Vicy 94366 Japan SHM]. I think I got it directly from Japan. Supper High Materials cds use the plastic used for dvds. |
But we, or our brains are aware of harmonics and even notes well above 20kHz. This is why 44.1 sampling is totally inadequate. I have several 192/24 albums were I also have 44.1/16. They sound like different recordings.
Mankind probably would not still be around save for our hearing capability to warn us of threats approaching and from where. |
Csontos, well it is great to be able to hear stellar performances from the past with great realism. I just heard Nnenna Freelon from about ten feet away from her. The performance was heavily amplified, however. She was great, but so was her Live recording with the same songs was also equally outstanding. That is always my goal in 45 years of being an audiophile. |
Lohanimal, you said, "One of the real problems of neutrality replicating the illusion is that I cannot recall last attending an un-amplified live performance in music, and trust me, I have tried very hard to do this, so I for one and truly denied that point of reference." I agree. Last weekend I sat in on five live performances at THE Show in Newport, CA. All were very enjoyable with Tierney Sutton and Nneena Freelon. All were heavily amplified and too loud, but I was very impressed.
I came home and listened to the same cuts from both singers on their albums. It was quite the equal to being there, especially volume wise, but I was thrilled at the realism.
I really don't think neutrality is our quest, it is realism. |
Soundsbeyondspecs, I think that speakers and electronics cause great variation in how limited the "sweet spot" is. My quest is a very wide, deep, and high the sound stage is as well as how precise. Doing what you need to do would mean that I have failed. Electrostats I have found have tiny sweet spots and mainly sound like you are not in the recording studio but rather in the control room listening through two windows to the recording studio. |
Lohanimal ,Your niece says, "The MC's were picking up and amplifying background ambiance. It may well explain our love of MC's that may well deliver that 'hyper-fidelity'." How do MCs amplify? Should ambiance not be reproduced? Also many MCs recommend rolling off the top end.
I find that most high end cabling has little high end extension. So cable manufacturers are pursuing making the sound less like the recording studio and more like row N or O rather than closer.
I have a pair of Murata supertweeters that have little or no response below 15k Hz. But is demonstration the audience requested that they be put back in to enjoy the music. There is a good deal of research suggesting that human can "hear" somehow well above 20k Hz, |
Tostadosunidos, even in a live listening, one doesn't hear what artists "imagined in their heads."
I find most systems are smeared because of not only slow drivers without much of a leading edge, but also because of slowness in cables with the dielectrics being chiefly responsible. I have speaker wires with nothing but air between the leads, not beads with air around them. They are very fast. |
Scvan, I am talking about what you hear. Some cables have a sharp leading edge and some smear the sound. I always suspect the dielectric materials. We are speaking here of ac signal not constant conduction. If you don't hear how smeared gold wires in speaker wires make the sound, we have little to discuss. |
Scvan, yes engineering can make things that work with corrections. I quit EE when in knew from physics that there was a normal distribution around the computations from Ohm's law in the lab.
Tubegroover, I have had many instance were reissues of classic recordings sound quite different from earlier originals. Some of this is no doubt the result of magnetic tape deterioration but also the recording engineer has his or her biases. |
Scvan, I think the distribution around the results suggest both measurement error as well as other factors no covered by ohms law. But I also think the are many areas where we don't even have the counterpart of ohm's law.
Basically, I think much measurement is of invalid variables. And I wish more science focused on circuit design to minimize the influence of wires with signal influencing other wires. Lately, I also wish that I understood the influence of magnetic waves on alternating signal in wires. |
