Viridian, I have a better idea of what you mean by dynamic range and signal to noise ratio, but even accepting that definition does not yield more than about 80db range for vinyl, while CD has at least 100db. And these figures I have measured using LP's and CDs. The direct to disc recordings (organ) has about 80db. BTW its surface noise is at about -70db. Pinned the needles at +10db!
Salut, Bob P. |
Rockinroni, can we hope that you are abandoning this thread? If so, that should really clear things up!
salut, Bob P. |
Veridian, yes, but I am talking about actual measurements and what the recording industry is (or has) actually done with the "theoretical limits". It is much easier to exploit the CD limits than the LP limits, hence the LP's contain less dynamic range as witnessed by my measurements. I might be off by 2-3Db, but that doesn't invalidate my findings.
I still love my record collection, it is just different from my CD's, not necesarily better. |
How come the vinyl lovers are all able to "tune-out" (pun intended) the little noises contained on the medium to enjoy the music, but are unable to "tune-out" the lack of information (so called) on CD to enjoy the music? Whose internal filter is wrong? |
Perhaps, but not because they are not missing information and the CDs are.
Salut, Bob P. |
And yet, Eldartford, vinyl proponents will tell you that LP reproduction maintains more of the original music than digital recordings because they don't, for the most part, understand sampling theory and think that somehow the "heart" of the music is being removed. Wrong or inexistant bass, errors in matching the RIAA curve, distortion are not seen as losing anything - only digital loses things, in their minds.
As others (although not many on this forum) have stated, I consider the quality of the silences in music to be just as important as the sound in the music. |
But then Rockinroni said that a Systemdek with Rega arm at 700$ would outperform a CD and obviously reproduce the notes below 120HZ.
I am glad that we cleared that up!
Bob P. |
Viridian, listening into 20db of noise (I guess this is like the cocktail party effect) to hear music is not my idea of gained dynamic range.
Salut, Bob p. |
Viridian, I don't know what the source of hiss is on those CD's, but I do hear it, in fact even more since there are no other noises to mask it! |
Wow, Viridian, you enjoy hearing noise that is 20db higher in level than the music?! Even adding the 20db to the average 50db range before hitting the noise floor, that gives you 70db. Don't worry I have measured several LP's for dynamic range and it is a rare disc that has more than 75db. Which is why I have found using an old Phase Linear 1000 range expander quite useful in restoring some dynamics to most LPs. Works well for FM broadcasts also.
Bob P. |
Actually hiss is recorded on vinyl, its tape hiss, which can be audible on (ironically) a quiet disc! Must be part of the "extra" information that is retrievable from vinyl. BTW, you won't hear tape hiss on a vinyl disc that was recorded digitally.
Salut, Bob P. |
Nrchy, aren't you just discussing which part is missing on which medium? Vinyl, after all, is missing the bottom end and dynamics, while possessing (or at least recreating the "life" and mark my words the life is not being extracted from the grooves but recreated by the motion of the stylus) that poorly recorded CDs are missing.
I don't know why one would want to buy an LP missing low notes and original dynamics. |
Rockinroni, if I recall correctly, you said that even an entry level system will outplay a CD system. So why doesn't my so called entry system not outplay my CD system? Because it has nothing to do with the playback system - it is more a question of taste. Just don't try to justify your subjective taste (a redundancy of course, taste is always subjective) with objective reasons.
I thouroughly enjoy my vinyl playback system and the quality of sound is wonderful, if the recording is good. I also enjoy my CD playback system and the quality of sound is wonderful, if the recording is good. The differences between the two are not greater than the differences in different concert halls or the orchestras playing in them. Some halls are quieter (along with the audiences) than others, but I do prefer the quieter ones.
As to the original poster's query, do as others have suggested, ignore the shortcomings of vinyl (noise etc.) and if you can't, play CDs. Of course my advice to those who wonder what to do about the shortcomings of CDs (lack of life etc.) is to ignore that and if you can't, play vinyl.
Salut, Bob P. |
Viridian, agreed. However, even though dynamic range is an engineering choice, the choices are still limited by the medium and technology. There is a wider dynamic range available with digital than vinyl. |
Rockinroni, "this is bass that a CD player cannot match"! Please! If only that supposedly added octave in the bass were there to be retrieved. Not usually! I have played back on my vinyl play back system direct to disc organ recordings (low of 16HZ) which are quite satisfying, and still the bass is not as good as the bass through a CD.
TT is Alex Mk IV with Rega arm and BPS.
I am not disputing that playback through analogue is perceived as more pleasing and satisfying, although I think that that is a matter of taste, but disputing the reasons that people are using for justifying their contention. It is not because there is more information to be retrieved on vinyl and that digital has less information.
You prefer vinyl and think that it is better. Leave it at that and stop trying to justify your preference by using objective arguments to prove a subjective point. You will have more credibility from my part anyway.
Santé,
Bob P. |
