Every single component in the audio signal chain is important and influential (weakest link analogy). However I do agree that the amplifier/speaker interface is critical for success. Practically speaking you can't separate the amplifier and speaker, they're intertwined. As a pair they profoundly determine the ultimate sound quality of the audio system.
Charles |
Lew,
Those are in reality very good THD levels for this type of topology. Again IMO with your speaker sensitivity(100-102 db) at your listening levels(80-90 db) you're in the 'tiny' fractions of 1 watt region. We all agree, listening is the best test. |
The Tannoys are an enigma to me, some of their models appear to work beautifully with low-power S ET amplifiers. Other owners Of these speakers however say that the speakers require more power to bring them to life. It makes me wonder if it really depends on which particular Tannoy model one is referring to. Dan seems to achieve more satisfaction than Pani does with this pairing. Too be fair, they use different Tannoy speakers. Dan's model may be an easier load than Pani's. The Tannoy may be outside of Rebbi's stated price range. The Omega speaker idea seems very intriguing for modest size rooms as does Tekton Lores. |
Rebbi,
I will email you regarding my personal experience with 300b SET, OTL and speakers with sensitivities of 92-95 db. Believe me you have a fine amp with many good options. Trust me.
Charles, |
Al,
Your point about the wide ranging standards regarding speaker bass specifications are
well founded. I will say though that the Tekton bass performance seems to be verified by numerous reviewers and many owners of these speakers. So perhaps their stated specs are "reasonably" reliable/accurate.
Charles, |
As Rob, Grannyring and I have mentioned previously, our typical listening volume is 75 to 85 db. At this level power required is less than 1 watt (actually fractions of 1 watt) for our speakkers. Distortion is miniscule, resolution/detail retrieval is superb benefitting tone and timbre. No need/desire to listen at louder levels(unless you just want to). Result=excellent sound with preservation of one's precious hearing ability.
Charles, |
Rob,
You make a compelling case forTekton. Y ou have actually listen to it and the De Capo in direct comparison. It has accumulated a growing body of diverse reviewers who reached similar conclusions about its sound quality. Rebbi wonders if the Tekton lacks the De Capo's refinement. Yours and reviewers impressions would seem to suggest they do not. At the very least it appears to be a serious contender.
Rob I agree with the idea to upgrade crossover parts when ever possible. Better quality capacitors do make a noticeable improvement. Ironically I believe Tekton's relatively low cost works against it for some people(it's too good to be true mindset).
Charles, |
Lew,
There are variables to consider, what's your listening level (very important) on average?
What the sensitivity and efficiency of your speakers?
You may only be using fractions of a watt the vast Majority of the time. You should listen to a good quality OTL and SET and decide which suits you better. Theory only takes you so far. You can find sucess with either but you must listen to really know. |
Barney Bigard's clarinet, yes, Rob I know just what you mean. I think you and I listen and hear music in a very similar fashion. I know those recordings well, both CDs and records. The Tekton is indeed a very good speaker if it gets the tone, harmonics and presence right as you've described.
Rob you'd be surprised how many big name expensive speakers I've heard at CES/RMAF can't get those essentials right. This is exactly why there's no substitute for listening yourself. The quest for that ultra detailed sound ruins natural sound reproduction I've come to recognize. |
Hi Lew,
Yes that was my point. At your typical listening levels you are "far" below that 20% threshold and would hardly if ever even reach it. At your listening levels that utilizes so little power, distortion is minuscule. This is the beauty/advantage it the SET. With your situation Lew you're using likely 1/50-1/10th of a single watt! Maybe less. Well below that 20% margin. To hit the 20% power range the sound would be unbearably loud IMO. Probably 95% of my listening is done with less than 1 watt of power and as a result ultra low distortion. That's is a good deal.
Charles, |
Lew,
Here's my situation. My speakers are 94 db and 14 ohm load. I sit 10 feet from them. Average listening volume for me is 75-80 db C weighted. I'm drawing 1/4 to 1/8 of a watt from my amplifier. Theres plenty of reserve if needed(8 watt s at full output). I use my SET full range(speaker has two 10' woofers each).
In comparison your speakers are more sensitive(100-102 db) and you're not requiring your amps to do bass duty as I am. It would seem to me a good quality SET would just coast under your desired circumstances. Your use of SET is much less demanding than mine and I have no problems(best amp and sound I've ever had). So you should be fine IMHO. If you decide to choose a SET just be sure it has a good quality output transformer(this the worse area to go cheap and settle for a poor part).
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Are there aspects of the Manley amps you miss or is your AN Kit 300b just a better amplifier across the board for you? Curious because both amps were heard with the same De Capos.
Charles, |
Rob,
The Yamamoto DAC is relatively a rare find in the used marketplace. If you can get one for only 1K that is a true steal!(believe me). Given your taste and experience I think you'll really enjoy it. It definitely is geared towards the "music lover" crowd. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
I can relate to your transition as my own experience was near identical. My former amplifier was push pull and very high quality . It was 100 watt in ultralinear and switchable to 60 watt triode and used 6550 or KT88s. In absolute terms this amp has more bass weight and impact , however the gap was narrower than I expected. The SET bass in terms of texture, tone and bloom is more realistic. Impact is definitely enough for my needs. In all other parameters of music reproduction the SET is superior and in all the ways you have pointed out so clearly. Once I got the SET, returning to the PP amp it sounds mechanical and lacks the natural fluidity flow of the 300b
SET. As you noted with your D. Krall example, my SET has superior resolution, transparency and clarity/articulation.
Charles, |
Brownsfan (Bill),
It's very interesting to note that you, Rebbi, Rob and the speaker's builder cite the terrific results of 300b or SEP with the De Capo. This in spite of the warnings that the speakers demand more power. Well your Cary and Rebbi's Manley met that criteria yet were found to be inferior sounding. Again proving nothing takes the place of actually listening. Bill you mentioned psychology and for some it is a significant barrier to acceptance.
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
My gut feeling was a successful outcome with your Monaco 845 SET once I learned more about it. I really like the approach of conservative voltage stress on the output tubes backed by a strong power supply. It's good to read that you are so impressed(and happy) with your sound quality using this amplifier.As didiscussed earlier, at your listening levels you're using well under 1 watt of power. Given your modifying expertise have you gone this route yet?
Bill, Rob is very interested in getting the Yamamoto DAC, did you find yours used or buy new as I did? I imagine that the Jupiter capacitors are fully burned in at this point in your Yamamoto.
Charles, |
Rob,,
I paid full retail price for my Yamamoto DAC 5 years ago, it remains one of the very best audio purchases I have ever made.
Charles, |
Bill,
I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have, sorry. Bill I have a question for you that I will post on my system page regarding the Yamamto if you don't mind.
Charles, |
Hi Rebbi,
How were the Lores in comparison to the DeCapo with your SET? Did the higher efficiency of the Lore matter?
Charles, |
Hi Rob,
You asked the pertinent question, how loud do you listen?
My Coincident Total Eclipse II are 94 db at 14 ohms. I initially drove them with my 100 watt push pull (60 watt in triode) KT 88/6550 tubes. This was a really good sounding match. You know what? The 8 watt 300b SET is even better sounding with these speakers. The SET relegated the higher power amp into the inactive components closet! The bigger amplifier can ultimately play louder but this is irrelevant. I would never listen at the levels high enough for this supposed advantage to materialize. The 8 watt amp is more than enough and after 6 years of blissful listening I appreciate this amplifier more than ever.
I listen at SPL of 75-85 db c weighted, this is plenty of volume for my needs. I on rare occasions listen at 95-100 db and even then the sound remains composed and un strained. The SET is better in virtually all musical parameters that matter most to me. Rob are priorities seem the same. My experience is that a good quality lower powered amp will drive 92-95 db speakers wonderfully. It's a question of desired volume level, room size, sonic/musical priorities etc. Rebbi you'll do very well with your current 8 watt SET IMHO. The realism and naturalness of music reproduction is better with the SET than the higher power push pull amplifier.
Charles, |
Rob,
That is the beauty of constructing and developing your home audio system, it is what sounds best to your ears and not to others. There are no gurus when it comes to deciding what suits you best, this is something we all must decide for ourselves. My push pull amp has good tone, timber, harmonics and dynamics, in fact very good. The fact of the matter is as soon as I inserted the SET into the system, its superior sound and presentation was indisputable in my opinion. People can tout power all they want and if that works for them and is the better solution then that is fine for them obviously. In terms of emotional engagement, organic/natural
reproduction and purity of tone the SET amplifier has been consistently
superior in my listening experience. Other's mileage may and will vary.
Charles, |
I would say that SET oawners listen at levels they prefer just as owners of non SET amplifiers choose to do. I didn't listen at higher sound levels when I used Solid state or tube push pull, 75-85 db was simply loud enough for me in my home. We all have our individual level of comfort regardless of amplifier topology or power.Atamasphere if the SPL at shows Is indicative of your preferences (Atamasphereand Classic Audio speakers) that's louder than I'm comfortable listening to. But again no right or wrong at all just an example of how we prefer different sound volumes. What's ideal for one isn't suitable for another. I'll make the assumption that we as seasoned listeners know what we like.
Charles, |
Keithr,
That's why at the end of the day it always reverts to what we like. If you're suggesting that SS amps are less distorted and thus sound better, I just respectfully disagree. Despite the many highly revered SS amps I've heard, none (so far) have the same degree of natural sound character I prefer. Again with all due respect I acknowledge this is pure subjectivity. I'm not knocking your choices in anyway. SS vs tubes is preferring one type of distortion over another it seems to me.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
I listen to big band recordings fairly regularly and believe me the SET is fine and preferable to my PP tube amp I mentioned in an earlier post. The is no single type of amplifier that is the best for all genres of music, I don't care what amplifier it is, there's inevitable compromise somewhere. I honestly believe that enough SET owners have posted often enough that they enjoy a very wide spectrum of music. The stereotype that only small scale music is appropriate needs to be put to rest as a tired and worn cliche. Mikirob, Jetrexpro, Brownsfan, Snopro, Grannyring and others have made it clear that they enjoy their larger scale recordings with great satisfaction.
Charles, |
Hi Tubegroover,
Thanks for your kind comment concerning my system. I clearly understand your point and actually agree with you in regard to what's required to make an informed decision. Everyone doesn't listen to symphonic orchestral music so I don't view it as some universal litmus test. I do believe it's a significant part of Jetrexpro and Brownsfan listening (they'll correct me if I'm wrong). If this music is a must for a potential SET owner then
yes, certainly speaker compatibility is crucial to ensure a good match for proper reproduction of this fare. I frequently acknowledge that what works for me may/will not for another with different needs.
In my listening experiences low power amp/ high efficiency speaker is preferable to high power amp/low efficiency-sensitive speaker. I can only report what I hear and readily admit it is an individual matter. Rebbi has been down that road and has expressed more contentment and satisfaction with his current discovery and I for one can relate to this. A speaker like the Tekton or one of similar sensitivity will work splendidly with his amplifier. It seems he's been quite clear on that point.
Charles, |
Jet,
Exactly! You and Rob make my point. Time to retire the SET limitation cliches.
Charles, |
Hi Al,
Oh yes, thanks for that recommended CD as I really enjoyed listening to it.First off I'll admit that I don't listen at the same volume and peaks as you're accustomed to and relish. However I found this recording very exciting and engaging due to the energy, dynamic ebb and flow and realistic presentation/venue capturing. Its been awhile since I last listened to it as I've been rotating through numerous recently arrived CDs. I will replay it again tomorrow and measure the SPL db range it spans. I have RCA Living Presence CDs of the CSO circa late 1950s that I'll use as a SQ reference. Al, I'm certainly a jazz aficionado but when it comes to classical I seem drawn to Russian pianists and cellists (more emotional to me).
Charles, |
Rebbi, I'm a former trumpet player(began at age 10).though I don't play anymore I still have 2 horns (trumpet and cornet) for sentimental reasons. |
Mapman,
It seems you've missed the fundamental point of this current topic. "keep it real"? that's what I and other SET users have been doing. We couldn't be more clear in stating that SETs require appropriate speaker matching. Once achieved, you can enjoy listening to all manner of musical genres. Thus SETs "don't" limit or restrict one's choice of music. The cliché that SET has " limitations" as to what one can listen to is in fact wrong. I can't make it more clear rhan that Mapman. The point Tubegroover's raised concern over had to do with limitation of various music genres. No one here has suggested SETs aren't limited in their ability to drive certain speakers. You may need to reread the above posts for proper context.
Charles, |
I'd imagine that the vast majority of SET owners had a variety of different amplifiers prior to discovering SETs, this is true in my case. At some point with experience under our belt we realize what sounds preferable to us individually. To state the obvious, these choices/tastes will vary. I can only speak of my own listening encounters. I've found SETs as a group sound better and closer to what I seek. That's it.
Tubegroover, Ralph and others,I understand that you are drawn to something else and move in a different direction. This is as it should be, I chose what moved me the most in terms of music enjoyment and involvement. I really don't understand what the dispute is, if SET doesn't float your boat then find what does (there's plenty of options).
Ralph I stand by my statement that there is no perfect amplifier, some will excel in some sonic areas and be less than ideal in another. We choose the tradeoffs we can live with.
Mapman, I don't get your "sugar coating" comment, sugar coating what? Every SET owner who has participated in this thread has been clear and open concerning proper amp/speaker matching. Their comments simply support and express the satisfaction they have found going the SET route. How is this perceived as sugar coating? Is Rebbi strongly preferring the AN Kit1 SET over his former Manley or Bel Canto an example of sugar coating?
Charles, |
Rob,
You make many logical points. SETs aren't unique in requiring some thought and planing regarding synergy and component matching. As you cite this is true for virtually all audio product to ensure successful outcomes. If you like Maggie speakers, be prepared to seek out high power amps to drive them. I don't understand the singling out of SETs as if nothing else mandates compatibility considerations. I would expect any person interested in a particular amplifier or speaker will do their due diligence as to what's required.
Charles, |
Grannyring,
Agree, the same rating doesn't mean they're the same amplifier by any means.
Pehare if the Dynamo didn't suit your needs then yes you should move on. One point though, don't confuse the Dynamo with the Frankenstein. Yes they're both 8 watt amplifiers yet are in reality very different. Very different design objectives, far more power supply and trannsformer capacity for the Frankenstein MK II. The Franks are 3 times as heavy as the Dynamo for a good reason. Note the comments of Jetrexpro and Grannyring regarding power supply quality and grunt. This factor and output transformers make or break SETs and thus a hierarchy is established. Franks drive the Coincident Total Eclipse brilliantly.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
There's absolutely no offense taken by any stretch of the imagination. We're just all sharing our varied experiences and opinions. The irony for me is that the SET ownere here as a group are about as an experienced bunch you'll ever find. We've as a group have owned or experienced a multitude of different amplifiers and by this time and place know what we want and how to get it. Class A, AB, D, SS or tube, OTL push pull, you name it and we've heard them collectively. Those of us who've chosen SET did so willingly, enthusiastically and with both eyes open. This has been a good discussion.
Charles, |
Brownsfan and Seikosha,
You both make excellent points concerning SPL preferences. This is strictly personal and all of us have our comfort levels. Ralph to suggest that just because one chooses moderate/reasonable SPL is somehow missing out on true musical enjoyment, well I disagree.
I listen to live acoustic music very often and sometimes its louder than is comfortable. And at other times the SPL remains in the mid 80-90s db range. Much depends on the musical fare, venue and where you're seated. I've discovered that lower listening levels at home can be and are immensely involving. There's no need to mimic live venue volume levels to achieve deep enjoyment. Brownsfan I have also experienced SPLs at shows and demonstrations that are unnecessarily loud and sounds like crap! Those who feel the SPL must be cranked up, more power to you and again this is merely personal choice. I don't view this as a right or wrong issue. I just believe it's disingenuous to say that preference for moderate SPL means your missing out on true satisfaction, No way.
Charles, |
Swampwalker,
You don't have to spend anywhere near that kind of money to reach the SPLs Ralph prefers. I could do that easily with my former transistor and PP tube amplifiers. I didn't want to listen that loudly. I am able to go 95-100 db easily with my current SET and speakers whenever I choose to do so . I've lack the desire to do this regardless of amp/speaker pairing I've owned. The determining factor is preference rather than equipment limitations. |
Rebbi,
As many of us have learned through experience, there are many ways to skin a cat. And there is also much to be said for same brand synergy. Products from the same Company that are presumably Voiced to work together in an excellent fashion. If doable it seems the Audio Note synergy would be ideal for you. Brownsfan and I have taken this approach with Coincident products and the results are undeniable excellent synergy. I could easily see you having the same end result. At The very least it's worth strong consideration.
Charles |
Tubegroover,
Well stated words of wisdom and experience.
Charles, |
David
We all here are certainly entitled to our various opinions. But I fail to see any nefarious motive in Rebbi's postings on this forum. In fact I think it's likely educational and informative for those who have come upon it. I'm
certain folks have learned a few things from following this thread.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
I for one certainly did not take your description as a put down of Mapman's amplifier. These amplifiers could in fact sound very fine, your distinctions were understandable in my viewpoint. The presence or "thereness factor " make all the difference in the world. If I could find a solid state amp capable of this elusive quality I would buy it in a heartbeat. As far as I know they don't exist. The wonderful three dimensional quality is tough to live without once you've been exposed to it. |
Bill,
What amplifier was driving the Tonianspeakers that you heard recently? I have never heard them myself but they have a reputation for exceptional sound. I do know how important synergy can be in regards to the overall sound.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
My parents died a few years ago and I think about them very often, so many memories. Your mother had a very long and productive life. You and your family have my sympathy.
Charles, |
Bill,
I suspect that Jet could help you sort through the quagmire of the Audio Note speaker line up. |
