Does It have to be loud?
Well duh! The big difference between ho hum run of the mill Bose waveguides and a great high end system is exactly what they are trying to demo - clarity and great low distortion full range sound at realistic dynamic live music levels. Big face palm! I would not expect a sports car demo only in downtown rush hour bumper to bumper traffic. |
It is great advantage if you only need 70 dB. It greatly reduces the cost of a system. Unfortunately it only leaves you with 80dB peaks less 30dB noise floor = 50 dB dynamic range but it does offer an advantage in that almost any system will do a pretty good job at these modest levels including Bose speakers. No need for market leading 120dB THD+N performance as it won’t be audible anyway. |
70dB isn’t realistic. Kind of the level you would listen to the radio. If it doesn’t sound good any louder then there is something badly wrong with the setup. Single musicians Average dB Peak dB Violin/viola (near left ear) 85 - 105 116 Violin/viola 80 - 90 * 104 Cello 80 - 104 *. 112 Acoustic bass 70 - 94 * 98 Clarinet 68 - 82 * 112 Oboe 74 - 102 * 116 Saxophone 75 - 110 * 113 Flute 92 - 105 * 109 Flute (near right ear) 98 - 114 118 Piccolo 96 - 112 * 120 Piccolo (near right ear). 102 - 118* 126 French horn 92 - 104 * 107 Trombone 90 - 106 * 109 Trumpet. 88 - 108 * 113 Harp 90 111 Timpani and bass drum 74 - 94 * 106 Percussion (high-hat near left ear) 68 - 94 125 Percussion 90 - 105 123-134 Singer 70 - 85 * 94 Soprano 105 - 110 118 Choir 86 No data Normal piano practice 60 - 90 * 105 Loud piano 70 - 105 * 110 Keyboards (electric) 60 - 110 * 118 Several musicians Chamber music (classical) 70 - 92 * 99 Symphonic music 86 - 102 * 120 - 137 * at 3 m Note: These representative noise levels are collated from a range of sources. They give an indication of the variety of noise levels and noise peaks that musicians and other workers can receive from the instruments concerned. This information can be helpful with estimating noise exposure and in identifying potential noise ’hot spots’. However, as shown, many of the instruments can exhibit a range of noise levels depending on how loudly they are played, for how long and under what circumstances (eg repertoire, venue, number of instruments concerned). Do not only use this information for a risk assessment but look at Sound Advice Note 3 ’Noise risk assessment and planning’and the relevant sector guide(s). |
@gdhal The mathematics you use are correct. However speakers do not behave linearly after a certain point. Worse speakers distort terribly. That point is surprisingly low. Soundstage do NOT test speakers above 95 dB SPL as a level above that will damage most speakers!! (Soundstage conclusions and not my opinion). Drivers have a limited excursion where they are fairly linear (Xmax). Driver voice coils get extremely hot and that causes significant compression (non linearity). There are a huge amount of challenges for high fidelity (no added distortion) at rock concert levels. My speakers play at 115 dB SPL linearly even at a continuous level with similar low distortion to playing at modest 85 dB levels. This is extremely rare in a speaker and requires large woofers, large drive motors on the drivers (huuuge magnets), short voice coils in a large gap (to preserve linearity),large diameter voice coils (for better cooling), extremely tight tolerances (better cooling) and lots of clean power - in short a huge amount of engineering is required to achieve this over a speaker that is designed to only play up to 95 dB SPL before starting to distort heavily (the majority of designs). To achieve this performance requires specific engineering that you won’t find in 99.9% of home audio. Since our ears and brain interprete distortion as loudness most audiophiles think they have speakers that play extremely loud however a dB meter will confirm to them that what they think is loud is actually just huge amounts of distortion giving the appearance of loudness. |
@geoffkait Nothing mysterious - all speakers distort terribly and very quickly. This is why pro monitoring gear used as main monitors in high end studios is so very expensive. This is why PA speakers in your local bar go loud but sound awful. Getting loud clean distortion free sound is a significant engineering hurdle and a costly manufacturing effort too. The diminishing returns are incredible - each extra 3 db in distortion free loudness capability pretty much DOUBLES your costs. |
@gdhal Since you have a dB SPL meter it is a very simple matter to check your own speakers. Keep cranking it until you get the meter reflecting sustained levels at 115 db SPL. If it sounds clear and clean and undistorted (but obviously very loud) then you can be assured the speakers are fully capable. A great test track is the Sheffield labs drum track CD with track 1 - this is quite a good workout for a speaker as it is highly dynamic and also broad in frequency response (bass as well as mid range and tweeter are all heavily used). I would suggest that you use a simple formula to estimate if your speakers are producing a combined at 115 db SPL at 1 meter. At your listening position the SPL meter should read 112 db SPL at 2 meters from speakers and 109 db SPL at 4 meters back. Since sound is dynamic you can expect the meter to only stay at such a sustained high level during drum rolls for a couple of seconds. Of course you should never listen at these levels on a continous basis. |
@gdhal If you have not tested your speakers at those levels then I am afraid you cannot know through mathematically applying max rated amplifier power (watts) and multiplying that to your speaker sensitivity. Perhaps I was not clear - very few if any speakers can play that loud without excessive distortion. I can show Soundstage plots where large Wilson and large Magico speakers (hardly low end) that are already distorting at a mere 95 dB SPL. |
@han_n Audiogon is for audiophiles that supposedly seek high fidelity. Part of realistic sound reproduction is clear clean dynamic range that equates to real instruments and real live music. SPL is part of what is real about musical instruments. I am actually surprised how many people here admit to having no real interest in high fidelity. They happily prefer a form of sound reproduction only modestly above that of a good radio in sound level. |
@gdhal You are welcome to disagree with me and Alexander Graham Bell. Actually this is what is so unique about Audiogon. Audiophiles define a different world in the way they see or hear it. A kind of Twilight zone where normal science does not apply. Fuses, ordinary wires, graphite paste and other sciences from other dimensions all apply here and regular laws of physics are suspended. ;-) https://www.britannica.com/science/decibel |
@gdhal The Triton Golden Ear Reference seems to have a linearity problem at quite modest volumes (90 dB). It looks like the AMT ribbon suffers from the problems that have always plagued these designs - lack of ability to produce even modestly high SPL without distortion. Infinity solved this problem by using arrays of the AMT but Triton Ref only has one. You can see what I mean on these plots from Soundstage particularly the deviation from linearity. http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1770:nrc-measurements... Of note also is the comb filtering of the AMT tweeter above 4KHz - this is due to the fact that the diaphragm is too large to produce these higher frequencies without interference and hence the comb like appearance of the frequency plot (lots of wiggles). The advantage of comb filtering is it can give a pleasing expansive effect - electric guitar players use it all the time to make guitars sound big - it makes it hard for the ear that detect the origin of the sound and will reduce pinpoint Soundstage on a stereo but conversely will make higher frequencies even bigger and expansive. The Stereophile plots better show the comb filtering. Note that off axis is the first to be affected which is because of the different distance the sound travels from either side of the large (compared to a conventional tweeter) diaphragm of the AMT. https://www.stereophile.com/images/118GETRfig4.jpg |
@gdhal You will find few if any speakers that Soundstage found capable of true high fidelity at 95 dB and above. We agree on that point. That said the Vivid Giya G2 performs well - this is an example of high fidelity at higher SPL https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=685:nrc-measurements... As far the definition of Decibel you found it. Sound intensity or volume indeed doubles for roughly each 3dB in SPL which is a mathematical certainty due to the formula. Doubling to the perception of the listener is whatever it may be. Perception isn’t what you get from SPL measurements using a sound meter. |
@gdhal I am surprised we cannot agree. To clarify, a speaker that plays to 90 dB SPL before distorting and non-linear behaviour commences is still true high fidelity up to the point it starts distorting. Above that level - well I thought this would be intuitive - the speaker is no longer high fidelity. As for the Decibel and what is volume level (sound intensity), I guess I leave that to you to decide how you feel these terms are best defined. Your terminology usage and meaning simply does not match normal audio engineering convention and I have no ability to guess what you mean by any of these terms. None of this is all that important. No offences intended. Disagreement is healthy and that is how we all learn. |
