Do audiophiles hate large subwoofers?

I don't see much wrong with them. It's not really the larger drivers, it's more that it can be a problem of one kind or other to get them into a "small" enough box and still sound very good. And there's the problem of the lack of proper control enough to integrate them well into the room and system...which is my complaint of virtually any sub out there you can name.

I think servo subs can work well, but it's really all the rest of it that needs to be thought out most, first.

I don't like subs generally because they are designed as an "add on" to the system...a bandaid. They are designed that way because they are approached that way. "Hey, it's a subwoofer and that's what you want, right?" Just more fully resolving the bass/room/system interactions could possibly be a better thought, subwoofer or no.

Regards

@lalitk, 

I believe I know what you're onto with something like the REL's and I don't doubt your voracity at all. 

But I'm a different sort of customer in a sense in that if your main speakers go down low enough, then something like a REL would be a snap to recommend. But two things: first, my main speakers start rolling off at just above 200 Hz...which means I need to roll off the bass driver around 150-160 Hz (1rst order).

Normally, when the crossover frequency is low (like somewhere lower than 100 Hz), then what we're really talking about here is the "sub-bass" region - i.e., not the mid-bass. And as the design of crossover frequency rises, the more the output intrudes into the mid-bass range within the sub-bass box/driver. The most difficult range for a woofer in a box to reproduce believably is the through the mid-bass...this is where bass in a boxed woofer will sound the most "boxy". This is why most subwoofer amps (usually plate amps) are designed to not have upper crossovers much higher than about 120 Hz or so, like the REL's...no point in trying to crossover into the mid-bass range from one 'boxy'-sounding unit to another (the mains), since their differing box signatures between the sub-bass drivers and the mains will present more of a nightmare to try to integrate in the room. Just below the mid-bass is considered more ideal.

The only real-world problem with that is I, like some others, am dealing with mains that roll off at a higher frequency than plate amps generally allow for. So for me, the REL's would not be a good choice, even as much as they might be an ideal fit for someone with mains that can reach lower than mine. But (and this is my second thing from above) a 200-Hz lower mains limit is ok in my case because the mains are open baffle and if I use ob bass drivers, there is no 'box problem' for me to contend with since there are no boxes...so I'm free to crossover more successfully wherever I might otherwise need to and it all works out fine, as long as my active, digital crossovers give an infinite choice of frequency points and the needed selection of slopes (which mine do).

But, it's the active crossovers that allow me to treat the bass drivers as an extension of the main speaker design...IOW, these are truly 3-ways - not a pair of 2-ways and a sub. There is a difference in design consideration and there is a difference in performance. The ob effect this way is of increased coherence, transparency, tonal differentiation and lower distortion. There is not the same fun-factor (slam) with ob than REL's provide, but ob opens the way for a more musical or realistic experience (again with the exception of slam). But for that, I will be adding an 18" driver and 700w amp in an infinite baffle arrangement. It should be comparable to folded horn bass which can be about as good as anything out there. The last point of mine is that companies like REL can excel at coming up with very advanced drivers packed inside very advanced boxes...a fairly extreme level of both art and science. The only trade off is that it's expensive. The ob approach along with infinite baffle does not require extreme engineering which keeps cost low...the ib amp/driver combo will only cost $1200, yet the performance level is very high.

Regards

"Low bass is a whole different animal."

Yes! I'll grant you that. It's only where I (or others) try to integrate at a bit higher than typical frequencies (like 170 Hz and at 1rst order) does it seem to complicate things. In my own setup, if I deliberately mis-adjust the delay, for example, I can Easily hear it at the lp.

Actually, I should say that integration issues (one by one) become increasingly less problematic the lower in frequency the crossover point goes (generally) and that integrations problems will not usually altogether ’disappear’ until that point is rather low. But, "low bass" is not "all" the bass. There can still be a lot of bass performance left on the table, unless your mains are so good that they lack for nothing in the bass save for very low-end augmentation only.

@bdp24,

interesting... Is there any way to confirm or distinguish between what the crossover point maximum is and what the true roll off frequency of the amplifier itself is...that might be critical for me.

@bdp24 

Yes, thank you, I must confess I did think long and hard about Danny's servo subs. They were quite attractive to me.

I wound up going with going with Crown XTi 2 amps and a pair of Acoustic Elegance 18" Dipole woofers (on order) for the mains and a single 18" Infinite Baffle woofer to be mounted in the front wall behind the main speakers. The Crowns for their unlimited crossover, delay, EQ options (which buys me future integration with any conceivable change I might ever come up with in the future in the way of woofers, subs or placement), and the Acoustic Elegance woofers for their efficiency at lower frequencies and their unique "lambda motors"...very low impedance for an easy load for the amps.

But when I looked at Danny's Rythmik plate amp, according to its specs, while the upper crossover control went fairly high, the response of the amp itself was terminated in such a way that if I ever needed a relatively high crossover point like the one I was already contemplating, then the upper roll off in the response of the plate amp itself would leave me a slight "hole" in the crossover zone up toward the hand off point to the midrange...the very kind of response error in my setup (with smallish midrange drivers [MMTMM]) that I could ill afford to have. (I find myself currently and happily wedded to a version of Danny's superb "Wedgies" main speakers that are Well worth all this fussing over them!).

BTW, for my money, Erik nailed it when it comes to subs: integration is king!...and yes, it can be a tough thing to find.

@bdp24, thank you very kindly for the scoop! I may have some figuring to do in the long run. I'm trying something else for now, but it's definitely nice to have a plan B to turn to if things here don't pan out well!