Thanks for the ideas everyone. Dodgealum, your experience is fascinating, since you've come from the same original point as I have. The Daedelus speakers looks really interesting; 3 way, superbly constructed cabinets, efficient, natural driver materials - plenty of plus points already. However I fear that even the smallest designs would overload my room. The Pan is larger than an LS3/6 cabinet, and larger than the Harbeth SHL5. It's not a lossy box design like the BBC monitors, so I suppose that would help, but I'm still cautious about that size of cabinet in my room. (Mind you, I've had Klipsch La Scalas in the room, but that was a month of madness!). Still, you've peaked my interest and I'll try contacting the UK Deadelus guy.
Ctsooner, Vandersteens look interesting to me, but I don't think they've got a distributor over hear at present. I know one or two people on the UK forums have used them but they are very rare here, which is a shame.
So many designs from the US don't seem to make it over here. I think distributors are very conservative about what they think people want for UK living rooms. And British speaker design has been dominated by polite, skinny floor standers. We have small living rooms, and there seems to be a 'better heard not seen' design philosophy.
I've never been too keen on floor standing designs, but the Devore Gibbons have been one exception to that. What Fjn04 says about the Orangutans does also apply to the Gibbons to some extent too, I think. Devore are just very picky about amps in general. They can sound mediocre with the wrong amps, but thrive with high quality valve designs. A couple of us took some amps over to try on our friend's Nines and it was bemusing. Some amps that sounded great with Harbeths or Proacs didn't sound good at all with the Devores. But with our friends VTL amps, the Nines are wonderful - a beautiful tonal richness, a huge sense of space, great dynamics, and all of these qualities are well balanced.
The big selling point about Harbeths is that they can sound very good with quite modest amps. I went to a session Alan Shaw hosted when he launched the SHL5+ recently and they were using a Quad cd player and QSP power amp. The whole system would be little more than £6k here, but like my friends Devore/VTL system, it was just wonderfully balanced - superb, especially with orchestral and choral music.
So it's easier to get the best out of Harbeths, but I think the Devores can deliver more when you give them the amps they want. They are just rather demanding.
I think I could live happily with the Monitor 30.1 in my small room, but if only they had that extra half octave. So then there is the question of subs, and the endless frustration of trying to integrate.... |
I am pretty close to deciding on the M30.1 now after some experiments today. I'm currently listening to my P3ESR and they sound great, so I'm looking forward to going back to a mid sized Harbeth. I've got some old HL5 upstairs in a larger room so it will be a nice little family if I have the M30.1 too.
I finally decided against the Devore Super 8, since although I do love Devores I realise I would have to retune my system quite seriously, and anyway I find the mid bass too lean.
A friend brought around a VTL IT85 today - a cute little integrated with good tonal qualities. I switched from my Unico Pre/DM to the VTL with the Devores and it was immediately clear that the Devores like a pure valve amp. They were ok with the Unicos, but I have a feeling they don't have the greatest synergy with mosfets, for some reason.
However even with the IT85 I was not getting anything like the clarity and scale my friend has with his Nines and VTL 2.5/150. And I was not getting anything like the bass of the Nines. So I realised that there was no point trying to go half way towards my friend's excellent system. That is an organic whole that he has worked towards for years. Every part is essential. The Super 8s are not the Nines - those side firing bas drivers really do bring another dimension.
My system is tuned towards Harbeths, and I know my amps have a great synergy with them. I've tried a lot, and Crofts are another favouritet; Harbeths love mosfet/valve hybrids). I put the VTL integrated on the P3ESR this afternoon and it was fine, but I was missing something - both presence and scale. With the Unico amps back it was all there. So the Devores got greater warmth and presence from the VTL and the Harbeths got greater warmth and presence from the Unison Research.
As always, synergy is the law.
I feel like I've come to the end of a long and very complicated but circular journey, with a hell of a lot of time wasted. But that's ok, it will be good to get back home. |
I think the main factor that will decide if they are a long term keeper is whether I get the itch for more bass. I would be prepared to spend good money on a very good sub, but my jury is still out on the use of subs without an active crossover.
One other nagging thought about 30s is that they are ported. After a year with electrostats I've started to hear the mid-bass humps and bloated port output that you get with a lot of box speakers. The Compact 7s had this. Perhaps this is why Yogiboy found the P3s so much more satisfying? As the only non-ported Harbeth, they can seem a lot more agile in many rooms.
With the 7s I found their were certain ways of keeping the bass tight. When I was experimenting with Croft amps I found that the pre-amp was crucial. A regulated pre-amp was so much tighter.
With the 30s it will be more about sins of omission. However I spent a couple of evenings listening to them in a room of similar size to my own recently and I was just entranced. And the mid-bass was rich and fruity, even if the lower bass was missing. |
I have to confess that before I decide on the m30.1 I am going to be getting a demo of the Janszen electrostats. That is thanks to this thread. They would burn a large hole in my pocket but could be worth it if they fulfil their promise. |
Yogiboy, regarding the Jansens - I heard these at a show about 18 months ago and thought they were very promising, but dismissed on the grounds of price. However I didn't know they had produced a smaller and more affordable version until you mentioned it. Thanks for this. I'll let you know what I think when I get to hear them.
I heard a very good system this weekend with ANE/SPe and some nice 300B mono blocks. It did pretty much everything right and worked well in a small room. It had a wonderful airiness and clarity - very revealing in the most natural way, and it was an extremely flexible system that could play all kinds of music. Curiously, though, I'm not sure it is the path for me. Perhaps at a later date. My 63s, in comparison, sound thicker and more opaque, not the traits we would normally associate with ESLs, but this weekend, I am loving them. |
Can you explain how you've heard that and in what circumstances? With which versions of AN-E? How Is the discontinuity manifested musically? |
Well Ctsooner, you may have noticed from my OP that I've been living with stats for a year, and I love them in many ways. However my ESL63s have limits that I've been trying to overcome. One of those limits is that they have difficulties imaging an orchestra when they are pushed to close to each other, and in my room there is not much space between them, and I'm quite close to them.
Earlier this week I heard some Vivid 1.5 again. I heard the little V1s a while ago and liked their smooth but extended, rich and open sound. They didn't have much bass so I asked to hear the slightly larger 1.5. Curiously they didn't satisfy me when I first heard them - there was a nasal edge at the upper register of saxophones that annoyed me. It turned out this pair had a defect in the crossover, so I went back and heard a good pair this week. Very smooth this time, and perhaps the closest to the combined naturalism and speed of the ESL63s I've heard in a modest 2 way box speaker.
But, I reflected, I had heard the M30.1 sound just as open, smooth, and extended with a soprano sax, and have perhaps more guts with a tenor. And all in all, I suspect the M30.1 might have as much all round resolution.
So the next phase. Yesterday I borrowed some Monitor 30 from a friend locally. Not 30.1 - the old version. It's been a few years since I've heard them. My first impression was great - a homecoming at last! But after a day I'm not so sure. They are surprisingly muscular and assertive after smooth speakers like ESL63s and Devore Super 8s, and indeed my Harbeth HL5s. And they feel so much bigger and more effortful than my P3s. They don't have the ease and naturalism of the SHL5+.
And yet I heard the M30.1 twice recently in a room smaller than my own and found them beautifully poised, without any hint of being too assertive.
Can the 30.1 be so different to its predecessor? Or is my room more live, or are my amps more assertive, than I had imagined?
I now have good options on ex-demo M30.1, Vivid V1.5, and also (another contender), Sonus Faber Olympica 2 (although I suspect these are too big for my room).
I suspect the Janszen demo is going to have to wait until the New Year now. Heavens, give me patience... patience I need... |
Erik, you read my mind, I've been pestering a dealer to hear the KEF Reference 1 for a while. They've just got them in and burned in, but it will have to be after Christmas for a demo now, I think. Unless I go today! My feeling was that if they can keep that organic and simply enjoyable quality of the LS50 whilst giving much more extension and resolution they could be stunning. The early reports have been wildly enthusiastic.
A few people have recommended the D30R, including my old Harbeth dealer. I'm just a bit wary because I know the D28 well and whilst I admired some of its qualities, it just wasn't my style. Hard to say why. Perhaps the ribbon will give greater refinement, but that's not really what I was looking for. However the KEF dealer also have Proac, so I guess that is where I should head.
Ctsooner, I'm pretty sure there is no Vandersteen distributor here now. There are lots of great options from the US that we just don't get. It's quite frustrating. Equally there are a number of European designs that we don't have here, such as JM Reynaud, which I've always been fascinated to hear due to Bob Neil's poetic descriptions on his Amherst Audio website. |
Well I will listen to the Proacs eventually, along with the Kef, the Janszen, and the Gradients if its possible to find a pair in the UK.
As for now, I just bought a pair of M30.1 ex-demo for a good price. This means I can effectively have a long home demo, then over a longer stretch of time listen to the others on my list.
The difficulty will be when the Janszen distributor gets back to me. I'd love to take up his offer of a home demo, but I don't want to waste his time if I feel married to the M30.1.
My Harbeth dealer also carries Rogue Audio and I he was singing their praises when I went in. The Stereo 100 seems very appetising. It's a shame they are a lot more expensive in the UK, as they seem a bargain in the US, but they are still not outrageous if they are as good as the reviews say. I'm keen to hear these properly soon.
My plan now is to take my time deciding whether the ESL 63s are definitely going, with the M30.1 as their direct competitor. |
Regarding subs...
There was the suggestion that an M30.1 plus sub would be ideal. I've wondered about this for a while. Someone on the UK forums has been trying to do this but having problems with integration. Will he ever succeed?
When you have a small room, getting the bass right is like finding a suit that fits perfectly off the peg. In all likelihood you are going to need the trousers shortened or something taken in.
I suspect what is really needed is an active crossover, so that you can covert a two way into a proper 3 way. I learnt this when trying to integrate a sub with the 63s, with little success. Then I got the Gradient sub-woofers, with active crossover, using a separate power amp for the subs. It massively opens up the 63s and gives controlled deep bass in a small room. However it was visually overwhelming, and sonically I really needed to be further away for it to properly work.
I sold the Gradients last week with a heavy heart. If I had a big loft apartment, that would probably be my ultimate system.
It has left me wishing that it was easier to implement this kind of active crossover system with more conventional speakers.
I know a couple of guys in the UK who have developed an active bass system that is meant to work with small monitors in the LS3/5A mould. It is a tower sub-woofer that sits perfectly under a mini-monitor, and they have built an active crossover and power amp for the subs. So you can use you own amp on the monitors, and it makes the main monitors more efficient, so you can use a valve amp with LS3/5A easily.
They demonstrated this system a couple of years ago at a show with some Spender LS3/5A and the Murphy CAOW1. It completely floored me how open and rich this sounded. They played a master-tape copy of Sonny Rollins' 'Saxophone Colossus' and I've never heard such ghostly realism in the reproduction of a tenor. So it was as much about how it liberated the mid-range as supported the bass.
The problem is that they have only built 2 - for themselves! It's not been marketed as they are both very busy.
It has left me wondering how you might use an active crossover with a superb 2 way like the M30.1 and a pair of subs. The key would be setting the crossover above the port output, which is where everything gets muddy. The guys that developed this system are firm believers that ports are the worst compromise in speaker design, and after a year with electrostatic panels I'm coming round to that way of thinking. Saying that, I suspect I will accept a compromise, like most of us do. |
Ctsooner, are we thinking of the same people? It is Dave and Mike that developed the sub system I'm talking about. Anyway, I'll be sure to follow your advice and give the Proac ribbons a listen before this quest is concluded.
Pcoombs, thanks again for the Gradient nudge. I had thought the Revolutions were monsters but looking at the specs now they are fairly big, but perhaps not overwhelming. Do you think these could work in a room of my size; just less than 15 x 12?
So the listening list now is:
Janszen
Gradient Revolutions
Proac D30R/D20R
Kef Reference 1
I think that's probably as much as my speaker testing stamina can take. I am starting to get bored of my demo cds. |
Ok so how are they for sweet spot? The directionality and head-clamp narrow sweetspot of the ESLs is something I'm trying to get away from so that would be one concern. Otherwise they sound hugely promising, and yes, looking at the M30s on stands in my room at the moment I keep thinking that most floor standers will occupy less space than this. |
I thought Id give an update on this thread, since Im now using the M30.1 as my main speaker. It took some time to make a proper decision to say goodbye the the 63s. During this time I switched them with the M30.1 and both had their virtues. Then I put the M30.1 in my second system in a larger room. I set up my old Onix BWD-1 tuner in that room and found that I was listening to BBC's classical radio station at every possible opportunity. This is when I started to fall in love with the clarity and naturalism of the M30.1.
Then I totally changed my main listening room around it became a much better living room, but not a good space for dipoles. That decided the fate of my 63s. However the Harbeths now work very well in the new arrangement. The imaging has clicked, and Ive got no bass issues in spite of placement quite close to corners (a pair of GK Tri-Traps helps). Im also experimenting with a sub, and that is working better than any previous experiments.
During this time I also continued to listen to more speakers. I heard some Avalon Ideas, which did not reach the lofty heights that reviews had promised, although I think they are a decent speaker and a relatively honest one. I heard some exceptional Geithain active monitors (RK 903K), which challenged some of my prejudices about pro monitors these were tonally natural without being harshly revealing, and to my surprise, worked very well at low volume. I heard the KEF Reference One, which were not bad, but ultimately disappointing; mid-bass heavy, overly warm, and unable to convey the higher harmonics of instruments like trumpet and soprano sax.
Finally, the speakers to cause the biggest impression have been the Proac D30R, recommended frequently on this thread. I heard these directly after the KEF and they were so much more revealing and refined. The ribbon is exceptionally well implemented, and whilst it does feel like it is throwing a spotlight at times, this never feels unnatural, and they are not bright in the negative sense. The hi-fi store let me have plenty of time to myself and I listened to a great deal of music; they excelled with orchestral recordings, and with a series of recordings of female soprano and piano I played. They were good with my favourite Coltrane pieces, great with well recorded modern pop (Stereolab in particular sounded great). This demo really felt like my own private party. The only concern I had was a rather lean mid-bass, which proved to be unflattering to a My Bloody Valentine cd I threw on as an afterthought at the end of the demo.
I played a lot of the same music later on the M30.1. The M30.1 are generous in the mid-bass where the D30R are lean, and this helped with the less than refined rock recordings. With the classical soprano recordings (these were all of French art-song Debussy, Faure, etc) the M30.1 were also exquisite. A little less airiness and intricate vocal inflection, but possibly more dramatic purpose. However I love both speakers with this kind of music. With the Uchida recording of a Mozart piano concerto I heard more air around the top notes of the piano on the D30R. The word air seems to be recurring already, and this is perhaps not the strongest point of the M30.1. The C7ES3 are more open, but this is achieved by a slight presence-region excess, where the M30.1 are very slightly recessed. I could go on in more detail, but I think its clear that Im an admirer of both these designs, even though neither quite achieve what I set out to find. There are one or two other speakers I want to hear, such as the French Lecontoure range made by Lavardin. But for now, I live with and enjoy the Harbeths. |
Ctsooner, you may be right about the Proacs - it would be for the room to make the decision. I'd certainly like to hear them at home but I'm in no rush because I'm enjoying the M30.1. The mid-bass emphasis seems to me very subtle indeed with these speakers, unlike the KEF Ref One that I mentioned, where it was a big warm bath. I would even contrast it to the P3ESR, which has a significant mid-bass hump to disguise the lack of any lower bass at all. This can be enjoyable, and because that speaker is not ported, it gets away with this emphasis - the extra bass isn't just port porridge.
Sorry for the excessive length and diaristic nature of my summary; I can't seem to find any editing functions or I would have cut it down to more relevant details about the M30.1. |
That is a good question. It's actually quite possible that the D30R weren't fully burnt in since the dealer said they hadn't listened to them yet.
I certainly agree with you that they have achieved something special with the ribbon tweeter, and it didn't have any of the flaws I associated with that kind of deign. Dispersion was good, both lateral and vertical, and they didn't seem to have a narrow sweet spot. (Although of course, after a year with Quads, most speakers seem to have a wide sweet spot).
The D40R has twin bass drivers, so that might make the difference. I do seem to be finding that floor standing speakers with a single bass driver can achieve deep bass, but are often a little lean in the mid-bass. At least that is what I found with the Devore Super 8s, and I'm told the 88s are similar. But it may be that the D30R properly burnt in would loosen out in this area. I would get a home demo, but as it stands I'd prefer to spend money on a new phono stage when I'm enjoying the Harbeths. Perhaps in a few months time. |
I came to update this thread and I cannot believe it has been more than a year since I started it. It's taken me that long to settle on speakers.
The M30.1 were lovely, but I craved more bass, and a little more presence. A pair of SHL5 Plus came up for a good price so I went for them. They are wonderful, but I still had some issues in my small room. I had some plans drawn up for additional room treatment, but then, out of the blue, came something completely different.
I had never heard of Vaughn speakers 3 months ago, and I suspect they are very rare in the UK, but a pair of Cabnernet Ones came up for an unbelievable price. They have the powered subs fitted, and this has really solved the issues with my small room.
It's amazing such a speaker can work well in a room of 15' x 12'. There were times when I felt like giving up and moving to headphones, but now things have clicked.
The speakers like a little room behind them for imaging but they work fine relatively close to the side walls with the active subs firing inwards. They have excellent dynamics and clarity, and they are chameleons with regards to amps. A friend brought a Unison Research SET amp around and they were so completely different to how they sound with my Croft amps.
I am currently powering them with ARC LS26 and VAC Auricle Musicblocs, so it's suddenly becoming a surprisingly American system, after years of very British Quads and Harbeths. However I still have my Tom Fletcher deck and Audio Synthesis DAC so its a nice transatlantic synergy. |
