Componets first, cables second?

Shadorne +++ The absence of a well-accepted, plain, practical engineering-type explanation of the how and why a more expensive piece of wire should work much better in audio than an appropriate (but ordinary) piece of wire raises too many questions for my liking +++

There are a myriad of perfectly rational and sound reasons why one particular cable will work better than another. Since different cables all have measurable capacitance, inductance, reactance and have different levels of screening, it is not possible for said cables not to affect the signals the pass along in very different ways. (If you ever bother to build an amplifier with point-to-point wiring you would be very aware of this.)

I am somewhat perplexed that you are eluding there are an absence of factual explanations. You would not if you had done even the most basic research.

+++ The argument also happens to be a marketing dream because the logic says that you simply don't hear as much cable differences with "unresolving" gear. +++

This happens to be patently true.

Regards
Paul

Shardorne, apologies for the attutude in my previous posts. You are right, that solves nothing and shouldn't appear on this board. My apologies.

One cannot regenerate musical content that is lost by raising the treble a few db. Once lost, content cannot be retrieved again. And you are right, no pissing contest will sway anybodies opinion on that.

Dpac996, the notion that I claimed I spent more money [than Shardorne] or that an audiophile is somebody that has spent a lot, is a reality that exists in your imagination only. You are of course welcome to interpret my post in any way you you wish to make your point. (whatever that may be)

TP I do have an slightly out of date system on AA – I frequently upgrade my system and room treatments and couldn't really be bothered to keep it upgraded.

Regards
Paul

+++ Most electronics is designed to be insensitive to these small variations in typical wire parameters +++

True. And most folks buy those electronics from Best Buy and K Mart i.e. most (audio) electronics are so bad that I wouldn’t want to actually hear them ... ever.

Audiophiles listen to very specialized equipment that portray even the lowest level of detail in music. These very low level signals are not immune to cable reactance. Inductance and capacitance will attenuate said detail. Not only does it attenuate detail, it causes phase anomalies also.

Ditto for lack of shielding. Airborne electrical interference destroys the lowest level details.

This is obviously not a problem if said signals are absent from the source, like if you feed your system with a el cheapo $200 CD player for example. With such a system the boom-boom-boom still comes through regardless of cabling, and you will have zero low level detail no matter what cabling you employ.

+++ Surely this would make wire so crucial that equipment manufacturers would publish formulas or guidelines for calculating the correct length and type cable necessary for each type of component being connected +++

Some manufacturers (Krell for example) make use of proprietary cabling for just this reason. Others, like Coincident, actually sell cables to use with their products. They most certainly recommend that you use their cables for optimal performance. Cable companies like Goertz make different cable models depending what length of run you need. I believe Cardas NR is also recommended for long runs?

Having built a number of kit amps, the vendors have w/o exception always recommended which hookup wire yield the best results. The effect of component quality in amp building is beyond reproach.

After a number of years of building I can tell you outright that I can clearly hear the difference when I wire my amps with stranded (non litz) copper vs. litz or solid core copper. It’s as clear as day. That said, my front end is somewhat more capable than a cheap CD player.

+++ The absence of strict well accepted guidelines suggests that either A … & B … +++

There is no absence of guidelines as you state, and your two options hardly corner the market.

Many manufacturers (for example Manley) suggest that you use aftermarket cables (just read their manuals) but for a number of reasons refrain from picking a particular brand.

Regards
Paul

Metro04, +++ I honestly don't know how Shadorne's … that's nothing to scoff at by anyone's standards, and far from being "consumer"! +++

Shadorne has put his money down and I am sure he enjoys his system a lot (and kudos to him for that), but using a cheap CD source really eliminates as an audiophile. The old adage “garbage in garbage” is as true today as ever.

If your system cannot reveal the differences in the characteristics of different cables, then it wouldn’t be anything I’ll bother spending a minute listening to. I have a few friends with the same priorities as Shadorne – they’re into their music for sure, but the boom-boom-boom is what it’s all about for them.

Regards
Paul

+++ it appears that for analog audio applications (at audio frequencies), wire capacitance and inductance are generally regarded as being so small as to be unimportant and can be ignored. +++

Wow, so rolling off high frequencies and bass AND inducing phase distortion is regarded as unimportant?

Add to that lack of shielding that causes the lost of low level signals.

Now why would an audiophile be concerned over something as trivial as that ... I wonder?

+++ furthermore, most electronics is designed to be insensitive to these small variations in typical wire parameters. +++

Yes, most (audio) electronics are sold at retailers like K Mart and Best Buy to individuals who wouldn't know the difference between a soprano and an Italian hitman.

But to your point, the electronics are generally insensitive to typical wire parameters. Unfortunately the signal traveling through the wire is highly sensitive to them.

If you use an inferior front end, for example a $200 CDP, you will have no problem as there will be no low level signal in the cable to start with. If you had anything resembling a decent front end, cable would make a huge difference. You should try it one day.

+++ Surely this would make wire so crucial that equipment manufacturers would publish formulas or guidelines for calculating the correct length and type cable necessary for each type of component being connected.+++

You mean companies like Krell, Coincident, Graham, Cardas, VPI, Zu Audio, Goertz, Van den Hul? Gee, you never heard of them?

+++ The absence of strict well accepted guidelines suggests that either blah blah +++

There is no absence of accepted guidelines Shadorne, you just happen not to know about them.

But the issue at hand is really that in spite of that fact that you have spent a bundle on your equipment, you aren't an audiophile. I have many friends with similar outlook as you (and no issues with that); they like music as much as I do, but they just do not listen to music with the same critical ear as I do (or as most other posters on this board do). A $250 CD jukebox will simply not extract the level of detail that warrant good cabling or power conditioning. I just shudder if I think of the myriad of nasty components used to build a CDP like that. Yech.

So you are 100% correct; good high quality cables will make very little difference to your system. It is so full of cheap and nasty components that a cheap and nasty cable will make no difference. Where you are 100% wrong is thinking that that is the hallmark of a good system. It is actually the hallmark of a K Mart system.

Regards
Paul