CD Player Modifications. Is it worth the ?

All i can say is "WHATEVER".

Since some of you seem to think you know what took place better than the guy that was involved in the conversation and transaction, i'll let you believe what you want to. In the meantime, PLEASE get YOUR facts straight. If need be, the owner of said unit will verify that Stan told him what he did.

My one question is WHY would Stan tell him that the newer units would not have the bass response of his Sony when Stan already knew what unit he had and was going to modify ? As mentioned, it is not one of the newer "bad dac" units but is a Pioneer 434. If i remember correctly, Stan already had the unit in his possession but had not begun to work on it when that conversation took place. I may be wrong on that part, but i can verify it if need be.

As to having to "defend" Stan Warren, i did not "impune" him in the least. You are letting emotions enter into what SHOULD be a logical discussion and putting words in my mouth. I actually stated that i applaud his honesty in the matter. If you read my follow up reply, i stated that i think that he is a very capable and experienced engineer and tweaker and placed him above another well regarded and respected "modifier" of gear. Once again, that is simply a "comment" that i made and my PERSONAL OPINION.

As to having to "defend" your personal preference ( or someone else's ) in a piece of gear, RELAX. My comments were just that: comments. I passed on information that has been passed onto me directly from the sources. Unfortunately, everyone does NOT hear the same or have the same tastes or goals when it comes to a music reproduction systems or even the type of music that they listen to. I'm glad that you enjoy what you have and i'm glad that some others have agreed with you, but GET OVER IT. You can't tell me what is best nor can i tell you. That is why there are SOOOO many brands, models, designs, modifications, etc...

Until EVERYONE can universally agree that specific components are the best ( BAR NONE ) and someone assembles a system of those specific components, OR can verify that they have the most perfect "golden eared" hearing, it all boils down to PERSONAL PREFERENCE. As it turns out, the people that listened to this specific unit did not PREFER it to some of the other units that THEY had. That is not to say that you, or anyone else for that matter, would necessarily agree with their observations and opinions.

As to what i have or am using, that is NOT the point. Nor did i EVER say that what i had or was using was "better". I specifically stated that i "MIGHT" have the opportunity to audition said unit. At that point in time, i'll be able to see where i stand on the issue. Until then, i can't pass judgment or offer anyone MY "opinion". Whether i love the unit or hate it, i'm NOT going to post my results either way. I don't feel like being dragged through the mud, being crucified and having people yell "heretic" at me while throwing stones. I don't need that from EITHER side of the fence.

I appologize for trying to share honest yet "alternative" points of view. Obviously, this was NOT what some people wanted to see and hear. If this has offended some of you, robbed you of your manhood, made you feel humiliated in public or reduced the resale value of your product, TOO BAD. Grow up and figure out that not everybody likes the same things or has the same impressions. That includes audio, cars, food, types of socks and underwear, etc.... Nor is every "test" conducted under the same conditions. There are therefore a LOT of variables involved that nobody can account for.

Now i'm going to go and eat my peanut butter and sardine sandwich with mustard, mayo and onions. Don't tell me that this isn't good, cuz i know better. Besides that, i've done testing at several different deli's and 35 out of 36 people liked it better than pimento loaf with hot sauce and dried clams on "aged" bagels. The one guy that didn't like it was the one that made the competing sandwich. Obviously, he was biased and we were "right".... Sean
>

Depends on what is done and the quality of the parts that are used. Simply changing some coupling caps to higher grade pieces and adding increased reserve to the power supply can make a VERY noticeable difference. Not only is the noise floor lowered, bass can become more controlled and you will typically make noticeable gains in midrange liquidity, overall transparency and treble "tone". By the tone of the treble, i'm talking about softer and more detailed highs with less smearing. More "shimmer" on cymbals and not as much "splash", etc...

My suggestion to those interested in doing such things is to start off with a product that you are basically happy with and go from there. Turning a sow's ear into a silk purse can be done, but it typically isn't worth the investment. Sean
>

The "fully modified" Pioneer DVD from Stan Warren can't hang with a better quality red book player. Stan himself will tell you that it will not have the bass impact, body, pace, tempo or warmth of a "good" cd player that is considered "musical". At least that's what he told one of my buddies that had him modify one for him. Sean
>

Please speak for yourself Eric and don't put words in my mouth. I stand by my statements.

The person that told me this has a Stan Warren modified Pioneer DVD player. He also has a very good quality redbook cd player from a "mass production" manufacturer. Stan told him that the modified Pioneer DVD would NOT match the low frequency qualities or capabilities of his stock CD player. Stan clearly stated this before he had begun to modify the Pioneer, so he did "flat out" say such a thing. He was being as up-front as he could be with the customer and for that, i applaud his honesty.

As such, my statements are not "corrupt", second hand "bullshit" or relying on "special circumstances" such as someone comparing the modified Pioneer DVD to a much more expensive outboard DAC, etc... The person that told me this still has the Pioneer player and i communicate with them on an almost daily basis. He has NO reason to "BS" me nor would i want or expect him to. I told him up front that i didn't think that the DVD player would match his CD player in bottom end warmth or body. My exact words were that they sound "crisp, clean and open but are somewhat lean". Stan basically confirmed those thoughts over the phone with him, but the owner still went ahead with the modifications anyhow. To be quite frank, he received the player back after having it modified and was not overly excited about it. The player has been relegated to his bedroom system.

I was informed by another Audiogon member that the "lack of performance" on some newer Pioneer DVD players is due to a production change. Pioneer has decided to change the internal DAC's and the units don't perform as well. For all that i know, the above mentioned Pioneer DVD may be one of these models and why Stan mentioned what he did to the customer.

For the sake of clarity, the information regarding the Pioneer DAC change was divulged directly by Stan Warren to this A-gon member TODAY while Stan was at his house. I spent quite a bit of time talking to this gentleman last night arranging a business deal. Everything went as smoothly as possible and it was as pleasant as could be. Given previous correspondance with him, i have no reason to doubt these statements or his integrity in passing them on.

As i have stated before, i only post information that i have experienced first hand or has been passed on to me by what i would deem a reliable source. Like anything else though, it is up to you as an individual to believe who and what you want to. Sean
>

With no offense to Dan Wright, i would not place his level of experience or knowledge anywhere near that of Stan Warren's. As most of you know, Stan has been working with audio for a couple of decades now as both a designer and "tweaker". Someone with knowledge of advanced circuitry, years of experience and a good head on their shoulders is a tough combo to beat. This is not to say that Dan's work is not good or appreciated though, as his long list of satisfied customers and public testimonials says quite a bit about how far he has come in such a short period of time. I do know that he is working with some very knowledgable people and doing his best to "pick their brains".

As to my comments, i did not mean to stir up a hornets nest. Since there was quite a bit of "controversy" regarding what i said, i did some further digging. I was able to find out that the DVD player in question was a Pioneer 434. This is not one of the newer models that was mentioned to me as having the "low grade" dac's in them. So far, three different people have listened to this specific player in three different systems in three different parts of the country.

The first guy thought that it was measurably better than his stock Pioneer Elite PD-65. It was appr equal to the PD-65 used as a transport and feeding an Art Dio tube Dac. It could not hang with his Sonic Frontiers transport / DAC combo though, but this is to be expected. That is, if price has anything to do with performance. The only thing that i can remember about his system is that he has both a Morrison ELAD preamp and an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A. Which one he was running, i'm not sure. I "think" that it would be his AI, as the Morrison had gone back to the factory for some updates / changes. Can't recall which amps he has, but speakers are large ribbons with multiple dynamic woofers.

When he had let it run for a couple of weeks and had become completely familiar with it, it went onto the next guys house, who is the actual owner of the unit. While i know that this sounds weird, the owner had it drop shipped to his buddies house first for him to break in. This also let user #1 see what he thought of it so that they could compare notes.

In the owners' system, he was comparing it to a stock Sony redbook player, of which i'm not sure of the model. It was not their top of the line "redbook" player and is a few years old. From what i can remember, i think that this player was somewhere around $800 - $1000 when brand new. His opinion was that he preferred the Sony within the confines of this system. I do know that he is using a modified tube preamp, a hybrid tube driver / SS amp feeding large e-stat's. At this point, he offered to send the DVD player to me to check out, but i declined. I had too much other stuff going on and didn't want to tie up his gear.

It left his house and went to the third party's house. He is using a Pioneer laser disc player with a highly modified tube preamp, highly modified hybrid tube driver / SS output amp. These two pieces have about $4500 - $5000 in modifications and upgrades done to them. I don't know what type of speakers he is running though but i do know that they are not "off the shelf" models of anything available. In this system, the owner thought that the laser disc absolutely smoked the modified DVD player. The actual owner of the modified DVD player ( tester #2 ) has since purchased an identical laser disc player to user #3 and is now waiting for its' arrival. Needless to say, he wants to do a shoot-out with the Sony, LD and DVD players to see which one really does work best with his system.

Keep in mind that these results are ALL subjective and based on personal opinions within those users systems. Based on the above info, you can see some commonality with the systems involved. All of them are making use of tubed preamps, so this might have something to do with the results and how the DVD player "loaded up". Personally, i am a believer that gear DOES change "personalities" when mated with different combo's. As such, this player may work best with passive, buffered or active SS preamps, i don't know. I may have him send the unit over here so that i can check it out. If that is the case, it would be feeding an SS preamp and SS amp, so i would get to find out first hand. If i do get the unit and people are interested, i can report back with my thoughts on the subject.

I hope that this has not pissed anyone off, as i was strictly commenting on the subject at hand and trying to relay as much "honest" information as i could. Obviously, different people have different tastes, different systems and different hearing. If everything worked the same for all people, we would not be having this conversation now nor visiting a site for used gear.... Sean
>

To be COMPLETELY honest in this, i may have somewhat embellished what Stan told him. I specifically remember that the owner told me THREE times within the same phone conversaton that Stan told him the DVD would not have the same amount or quality of bass, bottom end or warmth as his current redbook player. From what i can remember, this was the same day that he talked to Stan on the phone. The owner obviously found this to be "disturbing" enough to repeat it to me multiple times during our conversation.

As to my comments about the unit lacking pace, drive, etc... this MIGHT be based on another conversation with the owner that i had AFTER he had gotten the unit back and listened to it. It is "possible" that i am combining his listening results with what his initial conversation with Stan consisted of. However, there is NO doubt in my mind that Stan DID alert him to the lack of bottom end PRIOR to the actual modification taking place to his unit. Sean
>

That is a personal decision. ANY unit can be improved upon by thoughtful and careful modifications and parts upgrades. You are best off to start with a unit that you like and go from there. Since the Rega can also be improved upon ( like any other unit ), you might be in the same boat in terms of wanting to upgrade or have it modified some time down the road. Be aware that some people prefer their units better BEFORE they were modified and are not as happy with them once the work is completed. Such are the crap-shoots with unproven or "one off" designs. Unless you can hear a unit that was modified IDENTICALLY to what you will be getting, you really don't know what it will sound like. The problem with this is that many "tweakers" tend to "progress" as they go along, making changes and updates as they learn and are exposed to more units. As such, the unit that "Billy Bob" has that was modified two months ago might not be the EXACT same unit that "Sammy Joe" gets back when he sends his unit in for mods next week. It might be "close", better or worse. That would all depend on the individual unit, the mods that were done differently and the end users personal preference and perspective.

Obviously, there are some here that think that the Pioneer DVD or Aiwa / MSB combo as modified by Stan Warren is the most cost effective way to go. My suggestion is to find someone that you can trust that works on that type of gear and talk to them about your options. If they are "straight up" and want to keep the customers happy, they will let you know what they think is the wisest move in terms of bang for the buck and the investments that you have already made.

A call to Stan Warren would probably be a good place for you to start, as i think that he is both good at what he does and honest. You might also try John Hillig at Musical Designs, Dan Wright at Modwright, Ric at EVS, Richard Kern, etc... These guys are all reputable and will present the options to you from their personal point of view. After all, it makes more sense from MY point of view to talk to the guys that you will actually be handing money to rather some knuckleheads ( like me ) on a forum that are simply running their mouths. It is good to post things publicly though, as it gives everyone the chance to share their experiences, as different as they may be. Sean
>