Does it still need that much time, being used? Not that I care, honestly, it's such an improvement over what I had, anything more is gravy. I haven't got serious about listening, just hit it with a couple of pieces I'm very familiar with. |
Ok, thanks. Last night was better than the night before. It's on all the time. I was concerned about popping when I turned the system on/off, leaving the amp on, but there wasn't any, so that's good...I'm a happy camper..:)
But in the back of my mind there's that little niggle...how much better might the PSB's sound..?? :) |
Ok, thanks.
So it's the ST500 vs Mamps from W4S.
The AVA Synergy 450,
or the Parasound 2250 vs HCA2200II (I'm reading that the HCA is 'better' than the New Classic Line).
I emailed Parasound last night, and the President emailed back with his advice within a couple of hours. Good sign for how they treat customers! Can anyone comment on either the comparisons within brands, or comparisons between the brands? |
Thanks. The PSB's sound great, don't get me wrong, but $3500-5500 better?? It would take an in-home trial to really compare, of course, but then again, if that's the only way to tell, then that's too close to be worth that much $$.
Ok, so we have a vote for the ST500....any other experienced ears able to offer suggestions? |
I've looked into Parasounds as well. The hard part is auditions. Surfing the forums, Emotiva is a great value, but likely to be no help with the issue I'm trying to solve. I agree speakers make the greatest difference in sound, but given the amp needs to go anyway, I'm hoping to achieve the goal for a lot less than the cost of speakers. I found a 1200 ST500 here, Halo amps are a lot more for equal power, but I'm willing to go there if necessary. Anyone have direct experience with the two? Halo vs their New Classic line? Also, the objectionable highs issue is a problem only at high volumes. Does that change opinions from those of you who know about how amps work? |
I'll call Parasound, thanks. Sounds like your issues were similar, and solved the way I'm hoping to solve mine...the measure of a man's intelligence is the degree to which he agrees with you? ;)
The AVA Synergy looks good to - listed to be laid back and 'easy on the highs'. Looks like my budget will be $1500-2000. |
Oh, another question, brought on by looking at the amp options - Should I get a stereo w/225-250wpc, or for example 2 Halo A23's and bridge them to mono? W4S also has the mono options, so any opinions on that? I can't bi-amp the speakers, but I can use one amp per speaker. |
I was warned away from bridging by Richard Schram at Parasound as well. He said to go with the 2250. I've since read that an HCA 2200II is a better amp, though. It certainly specs out better in terms of current,but that doesn't tell me how the high frequencies would sound. I'm not writing off the PSB's, but the goal is to solve my high frequency issues with the Kappas with the right amp so I don't have to spend $3500 + on speakers |
I am a little surprised that my Kappa's, $1600 list 25 years ago, weren't blown away by what I heard out of the PSB's ($3500-5500). The PSB's were better, don't get me wrong, but not enough to justify that much cash. An amp is necessary purely because I need more power to drive the Kappa's to the volume levels I occasionally get to. I've always known amps sound different, I just wasn't sure if the degree of help I needed was possible from an amp change. I didn't notice the need until I added a sub, and even then, the volume does have to be high for the highs to be objectionable, but that's where the idea of the problem being the amp came from. So I can get the amp I need anyway and solve all my problems.....
Well.....for now....(evil grin)... |
You make a good point, and I suppose the amp being a cure-all is optimistic at best, but it's where I need to start. At least the feedback/advice I've gotten (thanks to all!!) is encouraging me that I can make an improvement. Perhaps for long enough that by the time I do hear those 'I gotta have them!!' speakers, I'll have the money to get them :) |
can anyone offer opinions of a Peachtree 220 amp as an option for taming the highs on my speakers? |
Possibly, but it's a Yamaha AVR, hardly audiophile quality, but since the issue is only an issue at higher volumes, it seems to be a power amp issue - a new pre isn't in the cards for now, the room is also the family/tv/movie room. |
My thought is the amp is straining, hence the thread. The receiver is running an outboard MX2 amp, 125wpc (although somewhere I read it was 150). Perhaps there's a gain issue between the avr and amp, but as both are Yamaha, I didn't really consider that. All I can say is that movies/tv are usually around -15 to -20db on the volume display. When I'm really cranking it, 2 channel, home alone, etc, I'll crank it up to 0db or possibly higher. the 'max' is +16.5. Does that mean anything to anyone in absolute terms? I understood it better when volume controls were a simple 1-10...
Anyway, since the problem is only a problem for me at 'I have the house to myself, time to let the neighbors know I'm home' volumes, I'm reasonably sure it's the amp running out of power. |
Bondmanp, ok, so I'll fill in the blanks: The problem I'm having is in 2-channel mode, so the avr's only sending signal through the preouts, the surround speakers it is also powering aren't in the equation. The speakers are notoriously tricky, Infiniity Kappa 7's (but they're far easier to drive than the 8's or 9's big brothers) with a guestimate of efficiency @ 87ish. The room is 12X19X8. I had thought of just trying an Emo amp, but then I read they can be bright anyway, and that's the last thing I want. From the feedback here, I'm 'aiming' for a Parasound, Classe (read elsewhere they are laid back), or Wyred. Emo has the best return policy if it didn't do the job I need, but if they're bright-ish anyway, what would it tell me? |
I agree, but if you read my earlier posts, you'll see that the sound is great until volumes get elevated, THEN it gets harsh/bright and objectional. Until then, they sound great. My question originally was perhaps phrased badly, and it was written badly badly, but the intent is clear enough. I certainly wouldn't want an amp that tends towards brightness, based on the problem I've having. Most brands claim and aim for neutrality, but the reality seems to be that there is a tendency, or favor, towards one range or another. Some emphasise bass, some mids some highs. At least until you get to the upper price ranges I can't reach. So, here I am... |
Sorry, I sounded pi$$y there, not my intent. The sub is a ULS15, powered.
Vicdamone - point taken, and I'll admit to a bias against D amps. Unwarranted, I'll grant you, as I have never listened to one, but nonetheless...I'll work on that. The JRDG's look wonderful, but a little out of my price range...;)
I was impressed with a set of Vandersteen's I heard that same day I was listening to the PSB's. Don't remember the model, but they were $6K, about 48" tall, and tapered. Someone was auditioning a Reva 'table, and Peter Gabriel was sounding wonderful! |
I've been looking at Parasound. It 'seems' to my uneducated eyes that the older spec out better than new. Richard Schrma at Parasound recommended a 2250, but the specs on that seem far below the HCA220II for example. I'm trying to get something good sub-$1K, which seems possible but not easy. An A21 seems comparable spec-wise to an HCA2200II, so I've been looking down that path. Nothing available yet...Haven't seen much in used higher power Parasounds, although a non-mk.II HCA2200 just popped up on fleabay. I can't remember the difference, but seem to remember it was a worthwhile difference to the II.
Those Rowlands would be sweet!! Wonder if they'd keep me warm on a cold night sleeping in my car?? :) |
Well it seems in 2 channel, my speakers are still full range, so perhaps that's not factoring in, however I found last night one of the Polydome mids is blown, so first order of business is to replace those.
I found some reviews of Odyssey amps, and talked to Klaus from there, and he swears his amp will make my speakers sing like never before...even with less wpc than I currently have...this ain't getting easier. Time to fix the mids, and pull the trigger on something...the only thing I know for sure is that there's no right answer.. |
Found some reviews on that, and it does seem like a nice match. A little pricier than I was planning on, but not totally out of the question used, there's a couple here used for $1750/1800. The Odyssey is still leading the way though...we'll see...
Thanks again |
Oh Boy, more choices :) - at least that is a loal pickup in PA, so no real temptation there. I know nothing about tube amps, or the maintainance involved, whereas the Butler supposedly gets around the maintenance issue by not driving the tubes to the max...
It seems tubes would smooth out the highs, though, is that the consensus? I'm wondering how much of the objectionable highs I have is from the amp running out of juice. Does that make the speakers sound that bad, and therefore, a 'real' amp with 'real' current would eliminate the problem? Or is it a speaker issue that just comes on at high volumes, and needs an amp that's softer in the highs to reign in a problem inherent to the speaker. As I've said, I have no objections to the sound at low-mid volumes, just when I'm cranking it up. Perhaps the ribbons in the Emit tweeter are heating up due to the amp running out of power, and that's why they sound bad, or will they do that at high volumes even with more (enough?) power?
My thinking is, if the speakers are inherently flawed in that area, and even a 'good' amp doesn't fix the issue, then the speakers needed replacing anyway, and anything I get would need a better amp than I have now. So a good amp now (first) isn't a waste. If getting an amp does fix the problem, then I've saved a significant outlay on new speakers. Klaus at Odyssey swears up and down I'll be blown away by what my speakers sound like with his amp, even though the wpc rating is about what I have now...
I suppose I'm not really looking for a amp that's 'softer' in the highs to counteract the speakers, but rather hoping that the objectionable highs I have now are because of the amp I have now, and therefore a better amp will eliminate the problem. I don't want to correct a speaker problem with an amp, but correct an amp problem with an amp. |
My Kappa's are way down the range from the IRS's, they are a 3-way box, and IIRC, retail was $1600/pr back then. The 8's and 9's were the real beasts, and many an amp went up in smoke, literally, trying to power them. I fully expected to be blown away by the improvements a $3-5K speaker could offer, but it hasn't proven true (yet). The PSB's sound wonderful, yes, but I'm struggling to hear $3-5K better. Plus I'm very aware that a better amp can bring more out of what I have, and the PSB's were on far better electronics than I have, so if the gap were to be closer when I upgrade the amp, it would be harder yet to justify a speaker upgrade. I had heard of the tissue-tweak as well, and wouldn't be opposed to it, but as I said, I'm mostly happy with the sound until I want to get loud. That's when things get ugly.
I appreciate all the input. Much has confirmed suspicions I already had, much has given me new directions to look, and with the consensus being that there's more to be brought out of the speakers I have, that's encouraging.... |
IF I change speakers, and it's a big if, I'd be more likely to have to get some that are more streamlined and 'fit' the room better aesthetically. The PSB's are 'approved' in that regard. Having said that, I've listened to B&W CM9's (I think that's the model, about $3K?), Paradigms in the same price range, Studio something's, neither of which impressed much, although a slight edge to the B&W. I did hear the 804's, and was impressed, but not in a particularly great listening setup. I heard the Vandersteen Treo (again, I think, about $6K) that someone was using to audition a TT. Associated electronics were also significantly upmarket on those, but they did sound pretty good!
I haven't covered all bases by any means, but so far what I've heard is leading me to believe that I'll need to get close to $6K to get to an improvement in sound that's more than just incremental and doesn't involve a compromise elsewhere - although I am also aware there would be a 'boost' to the sound of most of what I've heard by getting them into my room vs. the setups they've been in, but that applies to the PSB's as well. That I'm not ready for. I would be quite comfortable buying used speakers from that level though. I do see a set of Synchrony 2's on the 'gon for a great price, about 1/2 of list, and they are really tempting...
...but again, how good would they sound with the amp I have, a 25 year old Yamaha that was nothing special when I got it, never mind the march of time, although it's never missed a lick in all that time either...
What I'm looking at mostly is amps in the sub-$1500 range. I can't help thinking a good quality amp will bring the most out of the speakers I have, and when it is time to upgrade the speakers, I'll have quality to drive them with already. |
Hmm..I have Audioquest from the AVR to the amp, which was an upgrade over the 'Radio Shack' level I'd been using, but heonestly, I didn't notice much if any change. |
OK, so for example, a Parasound amp I'm looking at says it's input impedance is 33kohms, my AVR lists output impedance at 1.2kohms. How does that match up? |
I managed to repair the dome midrange. So, although I can't say I'd never want to upgrade speakers, as it stands I'm back on the upgrade-amp track. So, about that impedance spec....? |
Yes, I replaced it with a poly material. Back to 'normal', do back on the original quest...it was not broken when all this started. The original polypropylene was old and dried, and developed a slight tear.
Running through my reference discs yesterday, the speakers are back to 'normal'. Sound good until the volume is listed as 0db, where +16.5 is absolute max. Past that point, and the highs get harsh, and there's no cohesion to the music, it just becomes a muddled mass of noise. |
Acman3, so as long as I stay above 20X 1.2 (25kohms), I'm safe in that regard? |
ok, thanks. The Odyssey I'm leaning towards is 22. |
Krell KAV250 2-channel for $1200
Odyssey Stratos Plus $750
Krell 400xi - $1600+
Debate please....I am leaning toward the Odyssey for $$ reasons, but would that be short sighted? |
Well, my offer was accepted on the Stratos. Worst case, I can resell for less of a loss than if I bought new, best case, it'll cure what ails the Kappas. I'll report back in a few days. I needed to try something, and this is a less expensive way to put the theories to the test....thanks, all. |
The problem is, as I see it, there are very few 'Facts' in this hobby that is so dependant on personal preference. I've read a lot about Krell, and others, and have no doubt they would drive the Infinity's, or any other speaker, with ease. My reading (which is all I have since I can't audition all the candidates) says they may not be the best choice for a laid back top end, which I think I need to tame the Emit tweeters. Being familiar with those, you know they aren't shy. So, although current and 'balls' are necessary for the low end on the Kappa's, and the Krell has that in spades, I also need a 'softer'(?) top end. Other's have suggested a Butler, C-J, and others, and I believe they 'know' that their suggestions would also give me what I need. The Odyssey would be new, and under $1500.00, and that's where I'm aiming, although there is a used 400Xi on fleabay for $1800, and I think on the 'gon for a little less. Klaus @ Odyssey says his Khartago, upgraded, will make my Infinities sound better than I ever thought they could, apples and oranges. I'm....sceptical...that there would be that much difference, however I do believe it'll be a big plus. Everyone here has supported my basic premise, that a good amp can in fact tame my speakers, so I don't feel it's a fool's errand. If the Odyssey does fall short, I can send it back, if a used Krell (or any other used amp) fails to impress, it's not so easy. I don't believe there is one right answer, I'm taking all the suggestions and investigating on my own.
Thanks again. |
I'm not elliminating anything yet, except things I just can't afford. I am also one prone to wait a little longer to get the $$ for what I really want, instead of compromise and then wish I'd spent the extra, but there are options that just aint gonna happen, too. That's part of what's going on now. I know that ultimately, until I pull the trigger, the 'answer' will remain unsure. I also feel that any of the amps suggested will likely serve the purpose, and there's not likely to be just one 'right' answer. Maybe part of it is the 'offer I can't refuse' that hasn't quite happened yet. But I do at least know of lots more options thanks to the answers I've received here.
So, anyone got a 400xi for $500?? :) |
Oh I will. Got my wife involved in some listening last night, on a variety of material, including some piano that was really interesting in that the staging was like a big piano, panning right (right hand) to left (left hand), listening for cohesion between the drivers, trying to discern changes, without being able to, which is good.
As I said, I'm not discounting any of the suggestions except ones I just can't afford. The point is well taken that the 400xi is not like other Krell's that can be bright, so if the right deal passes my way, I'm open. Klaus is familiar with the Kappa's, and swears his amp will make me hear them in a whole new way, so those are the front runners.... |
O great, thanks!! :)
The problem is, I agree. :)
I still don't get how much more bass information I'm getting. It's not volume, it's like the old amp just didn't reproduce the notes! I did reach the speakers limits on one 'test' with organ notes...a definite woofer excursion distress sound. But even before that there is just more bass information getting to the woofers than before, that's the only way I know to describe it |
Runnin, I agree, and being in sales, I'm not unmindful of Klaus' bias :). It seems supported by what I read. I also agree that many brands could accomplish my goal. There have been a half dozen at least in this thread alone, and none were subsequently followed by argument from another poster, so they all seem like good options. It also seems that SQ overall can be improved in this upgrade, within my budget too, so that's where my research is taking me now. I probably don't have enough ear-time with enough variety of systems to be sure, but I'd guess my preferences lie toward a warmer sound, but the air around instruments is important to me too. I respond to that decay and echo in recordings of wind instruments and strings, the way notes hang in the air. That requires detail and resolving ability, but too much is too harsh....
I'd be surprised if my choice now was the 'right' one forever, as I'm likely to hear new things that need improvement, as is the nature of this hobby, but I plan to get it as close to 'right first time' as I can.
Thanks Audiolabytinth for the clarification of what vintages to avoid/aim for. There is one on fleabay I'm watching... |
Ok, there's an upgraded Stratos on here, but it keeps telling me invalid username/password when I try to ask how old it is, etc....anyone else had issues like this? |
Me too! Very curious! Thanks again. If this used Odyssey hadn't come along right when it did, I probably would have gone with one of the Krell's, since I've known about them forever, and like many, listed after one...this way though, my theory as to 'fixing' the issue with my kappas by giving them 'real' power can be tested with less $$ risk. If it doesn't work?....well, that's the fun of the hobby, right?? |
Audiolabyrinth, OK, thanks again. Talking to the seller on the Odyssey, he echoed what i've heard/read, so I should be all set. Looking forward to finding out.
Since you know Krell, what about the KAV250a? It has been on my radar as well, and certainly has the power, as long as it has the sound... |
OK, thanks. The Stratos should be here tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. Klaus said I paid 'about right', and offered to do whatever may become necessary to upgrade it if needed. He told me to start by leaving it on for a couple of days, and make sure it's warm to the touch, but not hot. I'm like a kid at Christmas, waiting for the Fedex truck...:) |
In answer to the original question, I'll have to say I need a few days for it to warm up, but so far....happyhappyhappyhappy!!!
The initial impact was in the bass. I guess that's where 'pact' is, but you get my meaning. I went to straight two channel, no 'sub out' from avr. I've checked three times so far, the sub really is not on. I've never heard these speakers put out bass like this! My wife in the other room even commented, positively.
Volume levels are increased, and highs are better...not as smooth as I'd like, maybe, but let me give it time. I am hearing more material..almost to the level of some new 805 Diamonds I listened to a few months back. That was 10K worth of amps and speakers. Yes, there is still a little too much brightness...but it is better, and I know it takes a few days for this amp to sound right..
More later, gotta change discs |
Well, it just keeps getting better. Sound stage focusing up nicely, sub is turned off for two channel, and the bass output is amazing. I am still stunned at the difference the amp made.
But...there's always a but...the extreme highs are still too much, and not accurate. Most noticeable on piano notes for me. There's a shrill-tinniness that I can only ascribe to the ribbons-style tweeters (or to my ears).
Audiolabyrinth, I am somewhat surpised to hear that, since the PSB's sounded great to me. I am also thinking that the environment they were in at the store (large open room, no boundaries to the side) would make them sound worse than in my 'real life sized' 12X19X8 room. As I've said before, and hence my quandary, the Infinity's don't give much away to the PSB's (except as the differences in room would effect the PSB's), but they don't sound as good. It's just that I don't hear $3500 difference in price, so it's a hard leap to make.
I may try the tissue-over-the-tweeter trick I read about here and elsewhere. But I would be open to other recommendations, either of speaker upgrade or other tricks-n-tips. There's no doubt the Odyssey is bringing out the best in the Kappa's, but they are hardly the last word in sound. Given that I like the sound of the PSB's, and the size works aesthetically, bass extension isn't critical since I do have a sub, and $$ aren't unlimitted, what do you all think???
Thanks |
I do get the potential issue being the source (material or player). Right now I'm using a PS3 through my AVR - Yamaha RXA3010. An Oppo 103 is on the shopping list. I know (now) that Yamaha is notoriously bright, so that certainly could be the issue, but it is relatively new, and the processor for movies, so I'm loathe to replace it. I'll have to verify which i/c's are going to the Odyssey - I was using AQ, but they are made in such a way that the terminals won't spread far enough part to connect to the amp, so I switched them with the ones I'm using on the sub, and have to see what those are. Speaker wires are old Monster cable from when I got the speakers. Can't remember which ones though. All I can say is that the actual wires are about 16 gauge, wrapped around a central conductor, then insulated and the plus+minus are then wrapped again. I use bare wire, and trimmed back for 'new' wire connections.
Some of the material I notice the harshness on is off Pandora, (but by no means all), which is using the ARC on the HDMI.
There is an 'itch' for new speakers, emotionally based as so much of this is, however the $$ isn't really there...the wife says it's her turn, and has a long list ;) (and to be fair, she's right).
It does bring up the next point though...Given that perfection is a moving target that can never be acheived, at some point each of us has to say 'enough's enough' and be content. Fine tuning to get the most out of what we have is also important, and the synergy of course - $5K total can sound better than $50K worth of equipment - Having said that...I think it makes sense to me to have an eye on where I may go with speakers in the future to prevent wasting money in the short term. Also, one of the items on wifey's list is taking out half the back wall behind the listening position, making it open to the kitchen. The room is currently 19 long, but opening up that wall will make it 36. To picture the layout of the 'new' back wall, it would be open except for a false header full width, down 1' from the ceiling, and from left to right, a half wall 3 1/2' high, 7' wide, leaving 5' open. the room itself will go from carpet to wood floors with area rugs. (so brighter yet). So, the environment for the speakers will change their sound as well.
Should I wait til all that's done and see how big the problem is then? Perhaps (unlikely) the room qualities will ameliorate the problem, or conversely (and most likley, given Murphy's position on my back most days) make the problem too great to be 'solved' with cables-I/C's. Or is the change in the room not likely to be so great as to render changes I make now in cables-I/C's pointless? How do I determine a realistic budget for 20 year old $1600 speakers, a $2K AVR bought cheap, and a $1500 amp bought used for less. I know I could easily spend that sum on one pair of interconnects and speaker wires.
Thanks!! |
Thanks!! I must confess to reticence to dive into the cable abyss. Deb, This all started with a ? about would an upgrade from my old Yamaha outboard amp improve the sound of my speakers. After much talk and advice, I got an Odyssey Stratos used here on the 'gon. The difference has blown my mind! The initial problem has been largely, though not completely eliminated. Hence the follow up about cables and interconnects. Currently the setup is: PS3, Yamaha RXA3010, Odyssey Stratos, Infinity Kappa 7's.
Deb's recommending MIT, Tara, Silnotes as starting points to look at. I guess the next question is how do I sort through the options each brand has. Each step up will have advertised benefits that may or may not provide an audible improvement. Each will claim the last word in accuracy, whereas through forums like this I'm detecting, much like with any other component, that each has a 'house sound' to some degree - the consensus so far is Monster tends to be bright, MIT less so, for example. Acman3 likes the Reality..
No work for me today, have to use that time better by surfing the net for the Holy Grail!! :)
Thanks All.
Acman3 - good point about common sense and rationalization..I'll work on that... ;) |
good idea on the reviews, but not useful in my case with 25 year old speakers...unless I go with the 'house sound' theory. Whatever wires they used then are long since discontinued. For the AVR to amp interconnects that should be doable.
I do get the diminishing returns bit. $600 for a pair of ic's makes me swallow hard, but I get your point. Guess I better keep working to pay for all this, huh?
Thanks |
Awesome! I don't use the sub for music at all. Bass extension defies logic, so the sub is now movies only. I have now heard the Kappa's reach their limits, which I've never experienced before, even back when I sold them new. A test track with organ notes caused them to cry uncle. The air and openness is there, notes 'hang' in the air with what seems to me to be untruncated delay if the recording has the information. I could pick nits, and I do wonder what 'more' there is available, which is why I asked about cables/wires. I do feel the ribbon Emit tweeter is a little hot for me at high volumes still. I'm not quite sure if I'm getting all the expanse of sound stage that might be available, but this weekend I'm a bachelor, so hopefully there'll be time for lots of experiments...:) |
Deb, I'm definitely enjoying myself! I was in the biz 25 years ago, but had to give up my 'crack habit' as I call it. Now I'm able to start again, building on what I had. The Odyssey amp I just got is my first 'real' piece of good gear, and I'm blown away by the leap up from my old Yammy amp. My Infinity Kappa's have NEVER sounded so good. So I'm happy, except for that overly-bright top end that still rears it's head when I get heavy handed on the volume. Don't get me wrong, it's HUGELY reduced compared to the old amp, and the bass extension and output is an added benefit I didn't expect. So I'm enjoying myself, just researching ways to squeeze that little out of what I have.. ;) |
