Beolab 5 - Four Questionable Technologies

There was a review on this speaker a couple years ago

Yes, one particulary rave review was in the Audio Critic:
Audio Critic Review

#1 sounds like typical marketing drivel.

I agree, but what if it is real? It sure seems like a good idea in theory. I gather that the research behind the was developed by an American, Dave Moulton. Here is an article by him: High Frequency Dispersion

Of course and as always, you need to listen to them in your room if at all possible.

Yes, I plan to go to a B&O showroom this week to listen. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

What are they asking for these speakers currently?

$18,000 US

After you audition the 5's track down Wilsons for similar money and I think you will find B&O is not in the same musical universe

Zenblaster, funny that you should mention the Wilsons. This week I did extensive listening to a pair of Wilson Sophia speakers.

The Wilson Sophia's have the best sound I have had the privilege listening to (so far). I will audition the Beolab 5 this week with my friend that owns the Wilson Sophia's. He remains skeptical, since B&O is not considered an Audiophile brand. Neither of us have heard the Beolab 5 before.

However, if I go with the Wilson's I'm not sure I would save money. With the Beolab 5 I can connect the CD Transport directly to it with no other electronics. With the Wilson's I will need to also buy a Preamp and an Amp and all the cables.

Duke,

In my opinion it's not the only speaker likely to have these characteristics.

What other speakers do you thing would have these characteristics? What other speakers should I be listening to if budget is no limit?

Thanks for your thoughts on reverberant energy. You seem to think it's primary advantage is that the sound would have a more natural timbre. I thought the key advantage was that the "sweet spot" would be a much larger area. This would give the listener(s) room to move around and still hear the music at it's best.

Steuspeed,

You can't change amps, cables or tubes. Many in this hobby enjoy the challenge of upgrading and tweaking their system to their taste.

I suspect once I get a really great system that I will be happy to just keep it for a couple decades. I don't see myself tweaking it or swapping gear. I would imagine that in a couple decades there will be something significantly better which I will consider.

However, in twenty years, if I am alive I will be 75, and I'm not sure how good my hearing will be then...

Onhwy61

I suspect that the typical B&O buyer enjoys music just as much as any audiophile, but unlike the audiophile they keep the same components for years without any changes.

I'm interested by that comment. Are you saying that to be a bona-fide Audiophile one must change out gear rather frequently? If so, that suggests that the audio quality is not the issue, but the pleasure of changing gear and tweaking. Yes?

Incidentally, you are right that I plan to buy the Beolab 5 and hold on to it for a couple decades. I guess I won't be able to call myself an Audiophile.

Shadorn,

the Beolab looks like it came from Forbidden Planet

I agree that it looks odd, but I'm okay with that. I am pleased that they are relatively small for their capability and the fact that there may be more freedom in room placement due to the adaptive bass control and acoustic lens technology.

Since you listen to music as a background thing then it may well be the correct choice.

I think these speakers would be overkill for background music. I'm looking forward to becoming an Active Listener

The Wilson's may not elicit automatic comments from guests but they are a more conventional tried and proven box speaker design

I'm not trying to impress guests with the looks of the speakers. I live on a farm in the middle of the Missouri and I don't have many guests. But my wife and I care what the listening room (read: Living Room) looks like.

The Wilson's (at least the Sophia's and the WATT Pupplies) are quite a bit bigger than the Beolab 5's and with room placement issues, I think they actually might dominate the room more.

However, having auditioned the Wilson Sophia speakers last week I have to say I was deeply impressed - the best I have ever heard. When I audition the Beolab 5 speakers if they are not at least as good at the Wilson Sophia's then I won't get them.

Chris,
Thanks for the tip on the Sensible Sound Review. You are right that David Moran gave it a rave review. Here are some quotes:

In my view the BeoLab 5, with its exceptional horizontal radiation, is demonstrably the finest loudspeaker system designed and manufactured thus far...

To get right to the point, in every instance I heard things I had never noticed before in quite that way: inner details, lines and strands that were newly followable, everything revealed under fresh, clear lighting. I worked my way through Mozart string quartet passages, then '60s and '70s rock (and not in gussied-up new mixes, either: old Fleetwood Mac, old live Cream). From CD to CD, tonal balance seemed oddly right--neutral, accurate were the words that kept coming to mind...

I don't know who David Moran is.
Is he a respectable reviewer?
Can I believe him?
Is the Sensible Sound a reasonable publication?

Macrojack,
Thanks for the links you provided. In general, the consensus of what you sent seems remarkably positive. It makes me wonder why Audiophiles don’t pay more attention to these speakers. If these speakers are as good as these reviewers/listners say, it would seem that they would be wildly popular with those interested in High End.

Here are some quotes from the links you sent me:
David Ranada from Sound and Vision:

It can play very loud, very clean, it has a very smooth tonal quality free of major colorations and resonances…B&O’s BeoLab 5 is the best speaker I’ve heard in some time, and it embodies extremely important technical innovations that deserve further exploitation.

HomeTheaterForum.com

To find that the only audio publication I have ever respected has given a B&O product such a glowing review - heck, more than a glowing review - floors me.
[He is referring to The Audio Critic which he quotes:] … “the overall sound was superb, as transparent, defined, and alive as I have ever heard out of any speaker”

From your link I went to Peter Aczel’s review in The Audio Critic.
Here is the link:http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=6&blogId=1
Quotes from that review:

“the speaker that makes my dream come true in every detail, bar none. I can hardly believe it. Amazing. Speakers will never be the same again.

Bang & Olufsen really did it this time. The Danish firm whose philosophy always seemed to be cosmetics (“Dansk design”) first, engineering second, has leapfrogged the whole speaker industry with an engineering design so advanced and so imaginative that it leaves everyone else in the dust

The most obvious difference between the measured response of the BeoLab 5 and that of any other speaker is the complete absence of high-frequency rolloff at any angle off axis horizontally

The Adaptive Bass Control alone, once activated, produced obviously superior results. The low-frequency response was utterly smooth, effortless, powerful, without the slightest lumpiness, and extending all the way down to dc—or so it seemed. Unbelievable bass. The wide horizontal dispersion of the frequencies above 500 Hz also resulted in a unique listening experience—you can sit anywhere in the room with these speakers, as long as they are somewhere in front of you. The aiming of the midrange and tweeter has become totally uncritical. That alone is worth the price of admission.

It is interesting that speakers this good and this innovative have never been reviewed in the two dominant Audiophile magazines in the USA: Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. Could that fact that B&O never advertises in those magazines have anything to do with that?

Shardone,
If you would be willing to audition these speakers I would be grateful. Then you can tell me if in the "real world" you can hear the design flaw you have detected.

B&O can only be auditioned at B&O stores. Their website lists them. Here is a link: http://www.bang-olufsen.com
On the left hand side of the home page is a a link called "Store Locator"

Shardone,
Thanks much for your VERY thoughtful observations! If I can summarize to make sure I understand, you are saying that for the Beolab 5 speakers:
1. The Bass was very good.
2. There was some "flanging" in the higher frequencies.
3. There was a lack of precise imaging.
4. There was a very wide area for optimal listening horizontally, but not vertically.
5. You perceived something missing in the lower mid range

I'm a relative newcomer to high-end HiFi and I don't know all the terminology, but I think I understand most of what you said. However, I didn't know what "flanging" is, but I looked it up in Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest. He said "In the early days of multitrack recording experimenters were constantly developing new, different and distinctive sounds. Phasing and flanging were popular words among these experimenters." In his glossary he defines flanging as ""The term applied to the use of comb filters to obtain special sound effects."

Is that what you mean by flanging?

I too went to hear the speaker yesterday. Unlike your listening space, mine (at the B&O store in Kanas City) was in a heavily acoustically treated dedicated listening room. My only observation was that it may have been too "dead" since it was optimized for demonstrating home theater equipment.

I listened for a couple hours and was deeply impressed with the natural and unstrained sound coming from the speakers. I tried listening in many positions in the room, high and low as well as way off to the side and it remained excellent to my novice ears.

With me was an experienced audiophile friend. He has a pair of Wilson Sophia speakers at home. He was not impressed. He described the sound as "analytical" "dry" and "lacking certain timbral nuances." He too shared your opinion about the lack of precise imaging. However I tried as hard as I could to hear it with my eyes closed and could not perceive it. And I tried this with two other speaker systems.

I wonder about the "dip somewhere between 400 and 1 Khz" that you heard. Could that have been a function of the room? The reviews I have read have not commented on that and testing does not reveal that.

Marty and Shardone,
Thanks for the ongoing discussion! It helps educate me before I spend a large amount of money.

The biggest concern with these innovative speakers that you both share is the missing soundstage. I gather you are referring to the lack of the illusion of the musicians laid out properly in space in front of you. I wonder if that flaw is the price one pays for the benefits of the Acoustic Lens technology? This technology allows for a much wider “Sweet Spot” but perhaps the sweet spot we get isn’t as sweet as it would be in a more conventional speaker.

Being new to High End Audio, I can’t say that I’ve developed my skills at detecting the soundstage yet; but it must greatly enhance the sense of “being there.” To help accomplish this, do Audiophiles always try to sit at precisely the right spot when they are doing active listening?

You both also complained about “congestion/compression” and “congested/cluttered in upper midrange”. Please help me understand. I’m guessing that you mean that in parts of the music the differences between instruments might blur, which makes it hard to differentiate or even identify the instruments?

Funny that you should end the last post by writing “I want to hear the sound as close as possible to what is on the source...additional colorations, no matter how pleasing, are something I try to avoid.” I spent a couple hours in the afternoon listening to the B&W 800Ds in a very fine listening room. The words that kept coming to my mind were “natural” and “real”. Perhaps those are the speakers I will buy…

But I remain deeply interested in the Beolab 5s. One variable that has undoubtedly had a big impact on all of our listening experiences was poor listening rooms. It would seem to me that the ideal next step would be to get the Beolab 5s and the B&W800Ds into my listening room at home, preferably at the same time for some extended A:B comparisons.

Is that a reasonable next step?

Shadorne
About the B&W 800D speakers you wrote:
“Yes do buy these over the Beolab - far better, IMHO. This is a fine speaker. A bit hard to drive but with the right SS amplification they will sing….this is an absolutely outstanding speaker. World class.”
I am tempted, and I don’t mind buying a powerful amp to drive them.
At the store they were using the 400 Watt Classe CA-M400 Monoblock Power Amplifiers. I have to admit I liked the way they looked and looks matter to me as much as the sound.

However, we are doubling the price here. The Beolab 5s are listed as $18,000. On the other hand, the B&W 800Ds list for $23,000 and if I go with the Classé amp and matching preamp (the Classé CP-500) that would come to $37,500. I can accept that if the sound truly is much better. I need to go back and listen again, but I on my first try the B&W speakers sounded more natural; more real.

I would like to hear the Wilson Watt Puppy 8 speakers and the Revel Ultima2 speakers. Other suggestions? I already tried the Vandersteen Model Five speakers and found the bass response oddly “boomy.”

Marty,
“this speaker would require an in-home demo and a large listening room. I don't know if B&O would accommodate such a request.”
B&O has already said yes to my request for an in home demo, even though I live 2.5 hours from them on a farm in the middle of Missouri. There will have to be some sort of payment if I don’t buy the system. Same with the B&W dealer.

“BTW, I can't state with confidence that the Beolab 5 doesn't image (soundstage) well.”
I wonder what others would say about this. I went back to David Ranada’s review in Sound & Vision: “it can produce good stereo imaging from a very wide listening area and extremely good imaging when heard from a prime listening position.”

Does anyone else have experience with this speakers imaging qualities?

Johnk,
" Will advancements in dig amps and DSP make it primitive in the near future?"
I'm guessing that if it sounds wonderful today, that it will continue to sound wonderful for a few decades regardless of how much digital amps and DSP improves.

However, I agree with your concern that about how well they might respond to a voltage spike. These are remarkably compact and complicated speakers. A lot is inside there and I expect repairs would be expensive.

Onhwy61,
“The Beolab narrows your choices down to a single digital source component.. For most audiophiles this would completely eliminate the Beolab from consideration since part of the fun of being an audiophile is working out the system synergy issues!”
Then I’ll probably never be an Audiophile. I LOVE the idea of simplicity. I want the system to sound and look as good as I can get. Then I plan to hold on to it for a few decades.

“Audiophiles like big hulking speakers and 100lb. amplifiers dominating a room. Is that what you want?”
Actually, I think it looks pretty cool. However, we will see what my wife says when she sees the 400 watt amps sitting next to each of the B&W 800Ds.

“If you go to a concert hall you won't hear pinpoint imaging, but a more diffuse type of sound.”
Interesting point. Are you saying that the kind of sound stage that Shadorne is looking for is artificial if the goal is to reproduce a live musical experience?

Thanks for the suggestions of Meridian equipment, I’ll see if I can find a dealer who has some.

Oxia
“To place an omni speaker three feet from a corner where the side-wall is made of a highly reflective material like glass is nothing short of a disaster.”
I’m not sure if it matters, but I don’t believe the Beolab 5s would properly be called an omni directional speaker since the speaker covers only 180-degrees.

As Paul Messenger wrote in Ultraaudio:
“The Beolab 5’s elliptical reflectors are shaped to cover a 180-degree semicircle horizontally, and to restrict the vertical "window." Nearly all of a driver’s output is thus directed forward, reducing the proportion of room-reflected sound the listener hears, effectively increasing the efficiency in the listening zone, and creating a speaker whose output is substantially independent of proximity to the rear wall. Because the Beolab 5 effectively has its own built-in "rear wall," it is immune from reflection-induced colorations caused by the actual room wall behind it.”

Well, I have picked my speakers, and they are not the Beolab 5s.
I love the idea of the B&O speakers, but on careful listening, I have to say that the B&W 800D speakers appeal to me more.

Granted, with proper amplification they are about twice the price of B&Os Beolab 5 speakers. But they are more appealing to me. I've already ordered them.

But in time if B&O stays with their innovative thinking I think they will get it right.