Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

" I'm not a bass-head at all and much prefer high quality bass. "
This is a statement I see often and actually kind of why I made this thread. Do big subwoofers just automatically mean someone is a bass head and the bass they are getting is of poor quality?  Many people here said that a well designed large subwoofer is not inferior or slower than a small subwoofer. Do you disagree with that sentiment?

"- Besides, I don't think there's much if any available music or HT source material that has content below about 20 Hz."Another statement I see often. Pipe organs can go below 20 hz and I find frequencies below 20 hz provide an incredible sense of space, scale, growl of the organ that I really love. Also lots of my EDM/techno/ambient goes below 20 hz. So I think there is value there.

Tim would you go for 4x rel 812, swarm or dual rs2 / s7012?

@b_limo  which rel are you using?
@millercarbon so you would do rel 6 pack 812s over say dual JTR RS2 or S7201 ?

Thanks guys lots to think about.

@bdp24  or maybe quad 18s?

John I like your approach. I infact may go dual RS2s as well. But I might go ported just to maximize the low end extension especially for movies with the captivator 4000.

Or sealed S7201 or ported TV42Ipal.
But I think im settled on going for big subs.
Another approach would be 4x 18 spread around my space for a smoother response.

How SVS fixed it... 

"The turning point for the 16-Ultra Series subwoofers involved several key innovations. The first was an 8-inch edge wound voice coil, the largest ever deployed in a consumer subwoofer. The massive voice coil girth allows the woofer to exert complete control over the 16-inch Ultra driver and remain accurate and distortion-free with pinpoint speed in transients, even at reference playback levels. Four of the heaviest toroidal ferrite magnets ever used in a subwoofer generate unprecedented levels of magnetic force and machined motor elements produce astounding levels of low frequency output with minimal distortion. The cone material consists of a premium fiberglass resin composite that moves extreme amounts of air and sonic energy without ever flexing or losing control."

Wow check this out from SVS... they seem to believe in the big subwoofers = potentially more distortion due to lack of control principle.

"Acoustically, subwoofers with 15-, 18- and 20-inch drivers are more susceptible to boominess and distortion compared to subwoofers with 10-, 12- or 13-inch drivers because the pistonic movement of such a large surface area is harder to control. Poorly designed big subwoofer drivers with inadequate motors don’t produce accurate bass and struggle to start and stop on a dime. This results in low frequency output that can sound smeared, boomy or bloated and detract from the convincingness of an audio experience.

It’s even possible for a subwoofer with a 10- or 12-inch driver to outperform a subwoofer with a larger driver if the motor magnets in the smaller subwoofer can generate greater force and exert better control over the driver. It’s also the reason why a subwoofer’s driver size can be overrated when determining the overall performance. Put simply, a big driver is harder to control, and offers no guarantee of greater SPLs or deeper bass than a small subwoofer."
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/strengths-and-pitfalls-of-big-subwoofer-drivers

Lol I like that phusis. I guess the only downside is if the large subwoofer doesn't have a motor powerful enough to control the driver as well as a smaller sub.

Maybe thats why the main guy at Rel keeps talking about the 'vertical component to bass'. Maybe thats why people love rel 6 packs.

Phusis ya I am thinking quad 18s spread around the room or maybe go insane with quad TV42 ipal or  PSA S72Ipal LOL.

Has anyone directly compared Rel offerings to JTR, PSA or Rhythmik and specifically to the 18 inch subs of the last 3 companies to smaller rel subs? What was the difference in speed and resolution in the bass?

Wanted to revisit this thread. I am getting arguments from the guys on our sonic visions discord about how only bassheads like subs and its like added ketchup to some kind of gourmet food.
My question is this: Is it possible for someone who enjoys high fidelity music (someone who enjoys music with good imaging, soundstage, dynamics, microdetails etc.... who is not simply looking to rock out and bob there head aggressively to the music as the ground shakes) to enjoy a system with well integrated subwoofers more than one without them?

Millercarbon I am 100% on board with DBA.
So you think mixing ported for lower frequency and sealed for higher frequencies makes sense? Also I have 2 subs connected via RCA from my preamp. How would I connect another two?
Also do you like Denis Foleys approach of having the various subwoofers are different levels vertically? He feels then you get a more even vertical response in the room.

Subwoofers have just too many advantages.
1. You can choose the size and specs to get the best speed, power character you want.
2. Can place them in the ideal position which is usually not near the main towers
3. You can cross them so you get the right FR that you want or right effect you want... play with phase as well, delay and dial them in perfectly
4. You can have multiple in an array so you get an even response in a room
5. You can do vertical array by either stacking in a tower or just have them at different heights at different positions in the room like Denis Foley recommends for a great vertical component to the bass and vertical even-ness

I just had a mind blowing listening session. Utterly incredible resolution, imaging, spaciousness, holography. Just hard to believe things can sound much better. I don’t think my system is far off from the magico m2. And I was listening to organ music... it was great. I could sense the space and power of organ, the scale.  (This is on NS5000)

BUT THEN...
I turned on my dual 18s. HOLY SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. The soundstage grew enormously. The organ became life like in its scale... it was simply real now. I closed my eyes and I was in a massive church. The subwoofers helped capture the shape of the space and the visceral low growls as the organist played low. For the rest of my session I left my subs on (crossed at about 50-55 hz) and I realized today that I simply love subwoofers and there is no way around it. The weight, gravity and power.. scale in every song i played was mind blowing. And keep in mind the NS5000 is flat to about 25 hz so it does bass very well but the boost in the low end just adds so much to the music. The bass didn’t seem bloated or boomy either to me. It was powerful and fast still. I am sure better and maybe smaller subs might do speed better but the way my system sounds. I could absolutely live with it for life. Only thing I want to do in my new listening room is get another 2x 18s.. and im thinking sealed. Then when ill do is cross the dual 18s at maybe 60 hz and then cross my dual 18 ported at 40 hz so they can fill out the low end and provide an even bass response in the room.

I am just a subwoofer bass guy... I can’t get away from that. I am reminded by my sonja 1.3 demo how i was really disappointed by the bass. It was just utterly lacking. Other audiophiles might not like the sound in my room and prefer the Sonja bass but I love this sound. And rather than spend $500k on Goebel divin majestics... why not spend a bit more on more subwoofers... youll get all the power, impact, scale of the big goebels for a fraction of the price! I think more affordable speakers and a proper sub array is a much smarter option than dishing out millions on speakers that may give you similar bass performance and maybe not even similar. Subwoofers are the key for me for incredible low end and saving money while I am at it!


Lot of my audiophile friends criticize my love of subwoofers... at the end of the day we all have different tastes and this is mine. I doubt ill ever give up my subs. They are amazing.

Great article here talking about subwoofer speed.
" Smaller woofers sound faster than larger woofers

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that smaller units like 8's and 10's sound "tighter" and "faster" than 15's or 18's. Even bigger drivers such as 21's and 24's are supposedly worse than 15's or 18's. This can be true in some specific cases, but as a blanket statement of all drivers this is factually incorrect.

This subjective impression is often caused by factors other than the simple size of the driver. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have a lower Qts because manufacturers tend to share one motor design across many different sizes of drivers in the series. They may have the same motor on the 10" driver that they have on the 15 or 18". Unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers. Ultimately the larger driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments as the smaller driver and ends up requiring a much larger air volume for the same system "Q" and response shape. Typically the larger driver will end up in a higher "Q" undersized system with a less linear response shape that may cause it to sound more uneven or "one note". It may also end up being tuned much deeper in frequency and the increased low frequency output may also cause it to sound "slower" or "heavier". Smaller subs and those using smaller driver sizes are often not asked to go as low and will not have the same low frequency extension in their design. When comparing subs the one with more low frequency extension and output will sound quite different. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not inherently inferior sounding when compared to more efficient, highly damped drivers, but they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent response peaking and increased group delay.

Large sub drivers can be made to have the same motor to cone ratio as smaller drivers. The larger woofers also have more room for bigger suspension components and voice coils which can allow higher power handling, more excursion capability and larger mechanical clearances that simply cannot fit on an 8 or 10" driver frame. It is more expensive to make larger driver sizes in this way, but not impossible. There are a number of good examples on the market. It's just a matter of picking the right driver for the job."


https://data-bass.com/#/articles/5cbf5e7357f7140004d6d0ec?_k=o4xuea

@jon_5912  That is sort of like a rel six pack except you have different sizes and types of subs. I bet it would work well if it was properly setup.

Hey sorry to revive the thread but now i am in the future space I mentioned. Its 32 x 34 feet x 8 feet basement. I am only doing music / hifi here no HT.

I am thinking of what subs to get. I got some dual gsg audio full martys for my HT and i love them. I wanted to know if I should go that route for this space or mix and match approach with multiple different subs. Looking to buy used to save money. I am in Canada. I have been all over canuck audio mart but can't find anything that I think is a good deal.

@phusis I definitely am wrestling with this now. What if I got some 12 inch klipsch subs... maybe 4 or 6 of them and put them all over my room even at different heights. For that money I can buy 2x full marty gsg cabs with 21 inch mach 5 drivers (used pair has come up on canuck) and dual crown amps. Which would be better? I think you make a lot of good arguments.

Or if you look at something like rel for the price of even 1.5x of S812s I can get this dual 21 inch setup.

Any recommendations for an 18" sub driver good for music? I heard the pro audio drivers tend to put out more mid bass than HT focused drivers like dayton UM18s.