Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

Mike and Del I thank you both for the opportunity to share your impressions with us all. I can't say I'm surprised by the outcome. I have heard too many wonderful comments about the Tenors to think otherwise. Hope to hear someday, maybe the shootout in Seattle?

I would also recommend to other Berning owners to upgrade their input tubes to the Brimar and GE's, the improvement is not subtle. The music seems to somehow escape from the transducer into the room quite magically. It is a significant improvement that can't be overstated.

Is not "World Class" a debatable issue or is it absolute? Absolutes seem to work best in a religious context and I sure sense a lot of that in this hobby. To each his own.

To my way of thinking the Berning is "world class" just by virtue of such a product existing, not by anything absolute. Can anyone answer if they heard any product at its absolute best? Truth be told, it can probably always get better, at least perceptably so.

I recently had a epiphany of sorts involving a friend's very familiar vintage system. A major transformation in musical involvement was realized by changing out ONE set of interconnect cables. This simple change did more than my Berning amp did in the same system without the cable swap. I couldn't believe it so I went over a few days later and heard the same thing.

Of the absolute "among the best" what is the absolute best? Let your ears guide you Luke. For as you travel this path ye shall one day realize that it is a never ending journey and nothing is absolute excepting ye shall keep searching.

"The Tenor amplifiers currently stand alone on top of the market, given the proper speaker. The Lamm's and Atma-sphere are next if more power or a transformer is needed".

Jtinn - You better clarify that statement or we'll end up with the ss guys over here and it may really get ugly :)

Hi Hififarm

How heavy and where are these amps on your site? All I could find was a pre-amp at a modest 16K. I'm sure the heavy hitters and the rest of us are curious. It seems you have taken the lead in the search with such a statement.

I thought this started out as a friendly comparison between an over achieving 4.5k amp and the Tenors. Maybe a "best amp in the whole wide world" thread should be started before it gets too far off track and the ss guys DO show up!

Mkb001 - "Why can't Berning guys think that the ZH270 is in the same league or class as the Tenors given the "total match and system"?

This isn't as important as to convey to folks what a great product the Berning is. If I paid 20K for an amp, I'm not too sure I would want it compared to one at 1/4 the price, would you? It seems Mike's system was assembled with great care and love with the ultimate goal of serving the music to the highest level that reproduced audio is capable of.
Cutting edge, State of the Art, Edge of the Art whatever definition you want to use. When you listen you just know something is more right than what you are typically accustomed to. The commnents above from all tell us this. I would just love to hear it period. Price isn't the issue, enjoyment is. We have made it an issue and tried to quantify price with performance=enjoyment. My system is a fraction of Mike's and although I may ultimately enjoy his more, I still enjoy mine as it too serves the music.

Nothing about the Berning has been diminished by this comparison and the outcome. Quite to the contrary, its reputation should grow especially when more get a chance to hear it first hand and make up their own mind. The fact that this design has elicited enough attention for it to be compared to a 20K amp in a complimentary system should be enough for readers that haven't heard either to sit up and take note of this great product. It is how I came to be a Berning owner and I stand firm about that choice.

Jtinn -The real point is if an amp is expensive to produce and it doesn't sound good at its price or below, it is a poor design and it will eventually fail in the market. It may last long enough to be sold to the unwitting deep-pocketed few, that's all. The deep-pocketed discerning music lover will recognize its real value.

As Twl notes above, fewer parts, less tubes and a radically new design can correlate to great sound at less cost, can't it? Better even than the competition and maybe even better than products considerably more. Can't this be true? Does it not ever happen in audio? This is what great design is all about especially when it also offers new levels of convenience, features and dependability.

Since you haven't listened to the zh270 in your reference, how can you be so certain that it isn't better than the run of the mill 4.5K - 5K amp? It doesn't have an output transformer that always gets in the way of the music. Most 5K tube amps have one and they ring, aren't nearly as clear and certainly don't have the bass performance of the Berning. The Berning has the true performance of an OTL. Other than the Atmas-pheres name another that competes? The Wrights are also great but they are specialty amps designed for low powered applications. Have you actually heard the zh270? You haven't made that clear. Since I truly value your opinion, I would be interested in the details.

Why did Harvey Rosenberg and Dick Olsher gush over this amp if it wasn't as good as it is? They didn't qualify it's sound with price. There seems to be a wide-ranging consensus that it has a reference quality midrange. There is greater debate over its performance at the frequency extremes but this seems to vary with the load.

According to one of your competitors in an above post, it gets much better than the Tenors. Well, one thing is for certain, it gets much more expensive. Question - Is the Vandersteen 5, at 11K, a world class speaker or is it just a great speaker at its price? Don't need an answer, I already know that opinions do vary.

As Mike notes above and as you have also noted in other threads, deep pockets allow a greater range of choices. To me the very best designs are the ones that make great sounding products that work in a wide range of applications and compete with the higher priced competition. In addition they are within financial reach of a large group. I believe the Berning is in that category of product. 20K + amplifiers should be easier to design to sound good simply because they have to make less compromises. The fact that some don't means those designers' should find a new line of work because there are many that can and do.

I hope the Tenors and all the rest of these products are at the show in NYC in May, I look forward to hearing first hand.