From everything I have heard of some amazing obscenely expensive systems, right down to just above average systems, I have found the totality of the small ‘lesser’ adjustments to make the biggest difference, so long as the basic componentry is not average. It shocked me at first, because like almost how we all started, the primary components appeared to be most important. Your observation must be printed in gold before any other thing said in all audio forums... It is also my experience i summarized in 7 words: Dont upgrade anything before embedding rightfuly everything.... I will only add that my experiments are there only for inspiration in others... You are right and i know that it is not all people who can experiment in a dedicated audio room with non-esthetical devices...But my ideas can be realized many of them in a living room, and some can be replicated more esthetically by others with better craftmanship than me. The point is small cost good system can sound "relatively" like high end modulo embeddings controls... This is important for people to hear that, then, instead of throwing money or being frustrated, they can became more creative and less conditioned by the false dogmas circulating in marketing and audio reviews... Thanks kevn for you astute mind reading me and kindness toward me.... 😌 |
A good track for holographics, which i refer to as all three dimensions of the soundstage, "bubbles" by yosi horikawa does quite well to hear system resolution - in the best systems ive heard, the effect not only occupies the entire frame in front, it extends beyond the sides of the speakers, and every sound effect is distinct and tangible in relation to how far away, how high or low, and how much centre, left or right they are. Some of the sounds are at ceiling level. It is mesmerising.
Thanks very good suggestion indeed... And it does exactly which you describe.... But i knew already that my audio system was good thanks to my embeddings controls... 😁 But a feed back can help because the composer is interesting by itself... My best to you.... |
The electrical embeddings dimension of the audio system implicate all electrical locations in the house, it is why new audio sockets and power cord among other things will work together for the better to lower the noise floor... I use my own device at low cost to reach the same goal... (Adding the 2 methods would certainly be better tough ) All this tells me is that you never addressed the acoustics if these were the biggest changes. But yes acoustical embeddings control are also one very important key, perhaps the more important but not the only one tough....Acoustical controls and treatment cannot replace, and give in S.Q. by itself only, what the electrical grid controls and the mechanical controls will add together in their own dimension to the global S.Q.... Then dont forget even the mechanical vibrations and resonance controls of your audio system they will improve imaging, timbre and stage too... I can hear what you hear relatively speaking with very low cost solutions....If i had the money i will do also your change(audio socket+power cord) adding these to my devices... But i am very satisfied at peanuts costs then....😊 Can hear to the walls of the recording venues, hear the air around and behind the players/singers, much more 3D and much clearer, more focused bass. My best to all.... |
So if you have a grid of 12, and they are not synchronized with each other, then how do you know they are not all cancelling each other out? they are all connected by copper very thin cable in ONE grid...Then they are synchronized in some way....my ears tell me that... Of course, it is not like there are any components on that PCB to tune the magnetic coil to anywhere near 7.83Hz ... not that there would be any efficiency as an antenna even if there was. I never presume that this cheap design will be of high quality and i never presume that this will produce the EXACT constant famous Schumann frequencies... But who will modify for experiment a costly very good product? But at 10 bucks it does not take Einstein to try an experiment.... I tried and i modified them.... I am not an engineer but i have a measuring apparatus that is very powerful... My standard ordinary ears... The audible effect produced by this cheap and bad engineering chinese piece was very effective... With my modifications... Buyer beware. Your mileage may vary. Then your caution for a peanuts cost product used for a simple experiment is superfluous...Buy 2 and try them before crying wolf when you see a mouse... Of course I am sure the little, near useless antenna on those units will totally dominate over the much much higher power 60Hz that surrounds you ..... I forgot to say yes this ridiculous piece dominate the noise level better with my modification tough ...Then your knowledge veil you some other unknown facts... But the history of science is full of some who know and prove that plane cannot fly .... You are very more knowledgeable than me in audio... I never doubt that...But you lack humility...You are not knowleadgeable in all subjects neither me... I know nothing in audio.... It is the reason WHY i created without preconception and without fear my own audio system with ONLY very low cost devices like these chinese junk or with my homemade creation... Guess what? my ears are so happy that i will never need to upgrade... It is by no means the best system... I am not a fool.... But for his price it is the best i ever listen to.... Then.... I will repeat this audio truth i myself experience completely: Electronic design components, the worst one or the best one, are always subordinated for their optimal working to the 3 same mechanical, electrical and acoustical constraints... ( i must ban the word embeddings people are afraid of this word) Nobody can change this fundamental fact that will help them to reach an optimal working level for any system.... And controls devices that work in this 3 dimensions DONT need to cost more than peanuts... It is my experience after my 2 years experiments... « Reality dont wait for explanation-Groucho Marx By the way nevermind our arguing i wish you the best.... |
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For the Schuman generators, i use a grid of 12...😁
Nobody had try what i recommended already... Use them with a thin small golden plate +herkimer diamond on top of the caps or the USB power connector...(Golden plate=shungite plate+copper tape on the external side)
That will increase their power, adding more meat to the bone-tone+envelope with the golden plate and adding more air(better decay) with the Herkimer diamond....
This increase the aura of the sound...
It seem i have too much ideas....People are afraid to expriment at low cost....Too risky to loose their face...They prefer to loose their money with costly product....It is a good thing nobody can hear my system :cost 100 peanuts butter jar....🤐🙃
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Electronic design components, the worst one or the best one, are always subordinated for their optimal working to mechanical, electrical and acoustical constraints( i must ban the word embeddings people are afraid of this word)
Nobody can change this fundamental fact that will help them to reach an optimal working level for any system....
Happy New Year and God give you the best sound of your life because music is what we have the more similar to heaven....For the time being.... |
More than anything it’s the room. A balance between diffusion surface and volume, reflection and absorbtion is decisive... No room is similar even with the same form and the same number of doors and windows at the same place... Why? Because the acoustical properties of the furnitures and walls and ceilings and of the floor can be different between these 2 similar rooms... Then even with same geometry and topology. the acoustical content that constitute the building room and furnitures will act dramatically... In my room the soundstage and imaging and even timbre perception was increased greatly by the right balance between reflection, absorption and diffusion... Just one tip to make you smile but it work: sound waves hate empty corner... I replace 4 of my 5 ceiling corners with polyedral flowing shape...i use five cents materials... Results: increase in the perception particularlyof high frequencies and more refine sound all across the scale...My room was already heavily controls tough....it is just an example of what can work in a specific room... In acoustic small change can made great improvement... |
So, while room treatment may help and equipment rack placement may help, you can get to this level of imaging without it. Interesting... I believe you because all room are different and dont need the same level of treatment, and some Audio system are already synergetically and by itself already very high S.Q. then i belive you... BUT it is not true for most of people at all....In most case acoustical treatment and controls are necessary....Beside that except for lucky buyers, most very good system cost high price... My speakers paid 50 bucks are very good but not on the level of your ATC for example... But guess what, my S.Q. is probably near you, i listen to a soundstage holographic with perfect imaging, natural timbre with audible decay,bass i feel in my stomach, and the sound is filling my entire room at low volume ...Then all situation are different...Thanks to my homemade embeddings device... Without that compared to your ATC probably my speakers are way under in S.Q. term... We cannot deduce that all costly system will be good without the need of any embeddings controls at all and will not need specific acoustical controls nor electrical or mechanical controls either...The general rule for most small room and audio system is they probably badly need all treatment and all possible controls... By the way i apologize to say that downright but you probably dont know what your own system is able to do more with a complete implementation of mechanical,electrical and acoustical controls...Perhaps your system even if you are satisfied is not working, unbeknownst to you, at his better level possible... Most people unsatisfied or not, are not conscious at all of what are the really true high potential level of their audio system, what it is able to give when working in optimal controlled conditions... This is the ONLY experience and certainty i have acquire at the end of my journey...I called that embeddings controls in the 3 dimension of audio.... Happy New Year... |
Biggest jump up I had in creating a large soundstage was HFT’s from Synergistic Research. I already speak about resonators in acoustic controls.... But instead paying big money i bought copper lure for fishing line among others things for few cent and try different size of other copper little bells with success... Other active device controls would do marvel also at peanuts costs... I use it to ionize my air room and the effect is astounding, on par at least with my active Schumann generators grid (10 bucks by pieces) Sometimes i think that placebo effect work by pricing the object costly and waiting for selling it...It is way evident with costly acoustical materials...If somewthing work it is NOT because his brand name is costly sometimes....i never bought specialized acoustic materials but chose by listening experiments with completely cheap one and my room is like a costly hall soundwise.... 😁 |
Millercarbon is right about the EXACT angle necessary to position speakers.... That is mandatory...
Happy New Year.... |
Source can make a big difference: I was comparing two CD players. For sure source is important... But between all dac or cd players, half of them will sound wrong and the other half relatively good (it is a way of speaking i dont know the exact number). It is the same thing for speakers and amplifiers.... It is very important to chose our basic element in the good half section of possible relatively good component.... BUT when this choice is done, the main reason for the lack of information in S.Q term are the uncontrolled mechanical vibrations and also the electrical noise floor which is too high all along the house and mainly because of the room and bad acoustic cause a bad timing of the sound wave reflection and mingling and reverberation and echoing... These reason are the main problem if the components are well chosen to begins with and are on the right section of the audio products offered in the market... In a word source count, but embeddings controls count on par with it .... |
A piano in a room has depth. How BIG is the church and how big is the room? Once you can sense that, you know your can be happy about your system’s ability to reproduce depth.
The answer to the OP: Phase. Do phase well (especially out of phase information) and you get "depth." Very good remarks... I concluded that my acoustic treatment and control were right when i was able to hear this difference between the relative size of different recording live location, being it a small room or a church, i will add with the same perfect imaging in the 2 case... Doing phase right for me was by listening experiments installing different acoustic devices or surfaces to make the waves timing with one another.... That ask for some balance between reflective, absorbing and diffusive surface....But also using resonators of different size.... |
From that I concluded that sometimes electronics do matter for sound stage even in the solid state category.
Electronic design quality always matter but most of the times way less than good controls of mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimension.... |
Interconnect and cables CANNOT make a big difference only a small one...
You cannot compare one second the combine audible effects of the decrease of the noise floor of the house and the controls of vibrations, and all the acoustical tratment and controls with the purchase of few cables, so good they could be....
It is not necessary most of the times to invest money....Just think, listen and experiment with cheap materials and very low cost electronic device... ( my schuman generators for example cost 10 bucks my grid of 12 cost a little more than peanuts then)...
I use aluminum paper with many other cheap materials for my room....
Cost 3 peanuts?
I created a polygonal shape (rectangle+triangle) with rigid and dense cardboard +aluminium paper covering it, to transform the void corners of the ceiling in polyedral convex flowing shape... The waves love that says my ears to my brain... This is only an example of how we can make the room an able tool ...
Audio forums are all about buying and buying.... I am more about listening/ thinking and listening....😊
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Any relatively good audio system will do....
Then dont spend money....
Second: All my gear is between my speakers which is bad and my speakers are not even ideally located, because one of my speakers is in a corner at few inches of the wall....
And guess what, my imaging is 3-D and the soundstage fill the room and the sound dont comes from my speakers in regular listening position or in nearfield and the timbre perception is right and natural......
Why?
In audio, good design electronics exist already for the last 60 years at least...
Then the electronic design of most relatively good audio system is probably not the culprit for your problem , because probably your electronic component are already good...And variance in quality of design count for sure, but the most important factors are 3 in numbers:
A-How much noise pollute the electrical grid of the audio room coming from the house grid...high noise floor destruct the timbre and imaging...
B-How much vibrations and also resonance affect my speakers, and even the rest of the gear? Same negative effect, these uncontrolled vibrations and untamed resonance will decrease S.Q.
C-And the very fundamental fact to add to these very 2 important one: is my room acoustic good? This factor, so much important were the others, this one is crux of the matter...
Almost no small room sound good without material passive acoustical treatment, ( you must look for a balance between absorbent surface, reflective surfaces and diffusor volumes) and no small room sound good without passive acoustical controls : Helmhotz resonators, and varied resonators in size from the 3 cm copper bell to a 5 inches copper bowl for example....
It can takes also what i called a Shumann generators grid...It is one of my active acoustical control with my last discovery, a kind of ionizer for the air...
I use other devices also, some other acoustical controls but i cannot all explain here...Go to my thread...
This is why i had depth, imaging, soundstage in almost all my many thousand recordings with some variation relative to the quality of the recording process...Contrary to the saying of some the illusion of depth is a damn real thing, like the illusion of a rainbow....But there is no pot of gold at the end of a rainbow and no real violin in my room but by god! it look like there is one....
This "illusion" contrary to the saying of some is not ONLY in the recording but MAINLY come from the acoustical setting of your room, because it is the room that make your speakers able to speak clearly or not... Not only the microphone location in the recording studio....
Sum total of all my embeddings: around 100 peanuts butter jar in Us dollars...All is cheap available material, homemade if not very low cost... I dont buy costly products...It is NOT necessary at all...This is the result of my 2 years listenings experiments...
Dont upgrade anything, think and embed everything rightly...Thinking is more fun than buying....
Happy new year...
note:
2 years ago with the same gear i own now i had the same problem perhaps worse because of the bad location of my speakers and bad location of my gear...But it was impossible for me to change that...
I worked in the 3 dimensions i speak about and 2 years after my 500 hundred dollars audio system can give lesson to much more costly one....Then have faith in your working ears and think....
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