shadorne, i see what you are saying, i've read a lot of your posts on this topic, just two unversed to put 2 and 2 together. it just seemed like the speaker was able to do more spls when it was clipping (no noticeable harshness or distortion). it does seem like a delicate little driver but compared to some others, it doesn't seem all that cheap. but within its limits it still sounds very nice for what it is. thanks, this has all helped me feel less in the dark. |
thanks for the responses (rafael: thanks, the article was very interesting but a bit past my technical grasp of audiophilia and not quite to the point, but thanks, very useful for me overall though). it seems strange i would get no distortion, then clipping, and the clipping doesn't sound "very bad" shadorne, as i thought it would. it sounds like "nothing," like more of a momentary cut off, like the skipping of a record (it's not the cd player). anyway, i can accept that this is how the clipping manifests itself. but is this (about 93-4 db sustained average @ 1 meter per speaker, with peaks around 96-7) about the loudness i can expect from 15 digital watts and a 94 db efficient speaker? i've seen in other threads how loudness levels can be calculated with these parameters. it is really pretty loud and sounds very good but the speakers seem like they could go somewhat louder. the volume nob on the amp is barely over 1/4 of its travel!
anyway, thanks again guys |
thanks again raphael, i think i see your point in that what makes the amp clip is a complex of the factors you mentioned, i.e., durations of peak voltage and current, heat dissipation, etc. trends audio sends no reference material with their cheap little amps, i could find out i suppose but i am keeping the speakers anyway as they seem the better product, so i will as tekton about these parameters and amp suggestions. i might buy a cheap 30 watt creek 4230 amp to see how that works.
i just thought this simple design w/fostex 167e drivers would already have some pretty well known good low wattage amp matches. i was also trying to find out if the peaks i was getting were reasonable for that type of speaker, i.e., how much louder can i really expect to go regardless of how well the amp matches. thank you though for your patient clarification.
pauly, yes the clipping sets in around 97 db peaks, around 94 db average. btw, i was not perceiving or expecting any particular degree of quantitative change in my measures.
thanks again guys |
thanks everyone, i'm in touch with the speaker manufacturer and working on an amp solution. johnk, fyi, to repeat the speakers never sound hard or poor or even distorted before clipping, they sound very good and then they begin cutting off and back on which i can only assume is clipping as it only happens at these higher volumes....from the sound, i am fairly certain they can play somewhat (not a lot)louder. obviously the question doesn't have the clearest of answers. i think it depends on the particulars of the amp, but i guess few have experience with the Trends 10.1 amp. |
"My numbers were supposed to be based on the general rule of 6db increments, not 3db, and for that, it obviously doesn't make sense that the amp is clipping." joelv
not sure why it doesn't make sense, could you elaborate for the technically challenged. thanks again for your help and no worries about your mistake, whatever it was : ) |
thank you again joelv, i must say that of everything written so far, and most all of it very useful, yours seems like the best answer to my original question, which is essentially: is this clipping to be expected, and you seem to be saying that it does not appear to be. although i'm about the last to know, my impression is that you are probably correct.
i've emailed both the amp distributor and speaker manufacturer...it may take some time but i will at least get some sort of straight forward response from them both and relay them to you. thanks thanks |
shadorne, you're absolutely right, don/t worry, i really love the speaker for what it is, i guess i'm really just trying to find that final volume margin of good sound from them, i know i'm very close, maybe already there, always looking past the horizon perhaps.
still, i would like to have enough headroom with an amp to hear some distortion from the speaker before the amp clips, i can't say why though, since i wouldn't listen to it distorting, i just want to make sure the amp is not the limiting factor in quality output (and also simply trying to understand the system's interrelationships), maybe i just have too much time on my hands : )
thanks
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fwiw, eric alexander of tekton told me that he felt the amp is likely malfunctioning, as he said the speaker should go substantially louder with 15 watts, even 10 should be more than enough for peaks over 100dbs. i don't know if he is going on any more than the rated wpc or if he knows more about the Trends 10.1 t-amp. i've also contacted the amp distributor and will see what they have to say. i wish i could simply measure its output. |
fyi, after much back and forth and many many opinions, it turns out the trends t-amp was faulty, though the exact problem remains indeterminate. audiomagus went above and beyond to try and determine the problem, even though they could not reproduce it on their bench. so they just sent me a a new one, even though i've had it well past the warranty period. anyway, this one works exactly as it should: it plays much louder with the volume knob going up well past 12:00 rather than the 9:00 on the old one. it really sounds very very good for the money. i KNEW those speakers would play much louder and i KNEW the amp must be faulty...oh ye of little faith ;) most of all, audiomagus really worked with me in real time over the computer to put in some quality time. i was very surprised considering what a modest purchase it was. well worth the effort from both a product and customer service standpoint. i hope they continue to prosper and encourage everyone to check out their small selection of gear...it is unusual stuff but this amp is exactly what i needed. thanks for everyone's help. |
