Acoustic Signature. My bad. Z. |
Hey guys, I think the 12 is coming back because the advantages remain but BECAUSE the disadvantages, some of them, have been overcome. I just got an SME 312 and an LP sounds the same all the way across. It is lighter and stiffer than what I was using. Same TT, same cart, new long arm, HUGE improvement. Only variable here is tonearn wire. SME is inexpensive copper, still much beter overall. Can't wait for a retail version of 312S! Z. |
Raul, Please read my response again. Slowly. I changed one component. The only proper way to evaluate a new addition. I could hear the geometry change with my other arm. If you have your Lustre set up properly, you will hear it too. This 312 is light years ahead of our beloved 801. In addition to the geometry, it is quieter, faster, and more detailed. I suppose you could say the 312 matches my cart better, I am not using a 25 year old cart with my 25 year old arm! Z. |
Pryso, The original question was why the 12s are back. I thought I answered fairly well in my first response. Perhaps only five years ago a 12 inch arm would NOT have shown this dramatic an improvement. Again, (slowly) I think that many former disadvantages to the 12 have been eliminated. Materials research and manufacturing capabilities have not stood still. As far as I know the laws of physics have. Z. |
Thomas, Thanks for breaking the ice on the looks issue. Perhaps how absolutely beautiful this thing looks has an effect as well! Visually stunning piece of work. I'm going to go back and just look at it now! Z. |
No sweat Pryso. The original question, which seems to be so quickly forgotten in some of these forums was why the sudden popularity. Technology and mat'ls are why the disadvantages can more easily be eliminated. I can hear the geometry change with most "short" arms. The technology now exists and is affordable to hang the cart way out there like never before. SME thinks enough of the improvement to build a 20/ series table just for this length arm(s) When was the last time SME latched on to a fad or a marketing scheme? Z. |
Raul, I see you have some vintage gear. Things have changed in the last 25 years. ALOT! Please re-read the original question. SLOWLY. You admit in your first response that you can't answer the question. THANK YOU. Please allow folks who perhaps can, the chance. Changing the topic does not help the member who posted the question. Z. |
Raul, Even after Downunder explains HIS question to you SLOWLY, why do you refuse to stay on topic? Do you still prefer drum brakes and carburetors as well? Ignoring, or not having a basic grasp of the laws of physics won't make them go away. Perhaps having a garage sale and purchasing something from THIS CENTURY might change your mind. If you have some romantic attachment to obsolete/vintage gear, that is cool. And your perogative. I have some myself, I keep it to remind myself of times when I did not know any better and couldn't afford anything better. You may have your own reasons for clinging to the past. You do however, look really ridiculous trying to convince the OP that it is HE and not YOU who does not understand HIS(!) question, or any of the answers. There are many elementary books and classes to help you with the basic science that is being discussed here. Keeping abreast of current materials research and manufacturing tecniques may prove more difficult. There is however, no voodoo or magic involved in answering the OP. Please read, SLOWLY, and perhaps several times, the article by MR. SME, a gentleman who has forgotten more than you or I will EVER know about vinyl playback that discusses material relevant to the focus of this forum question. This may take you several days to digest, if you have trouble with any of the big words, I'm sure there are many members willing to help you. Myself included. Good reading! Z. |
Raul, There will be no miscommunication once you cough up this list! Have you finished the reading I assigned yet? Did you learn anything? Do you have any questions, or do you remain the only one with ALL the answers? How did any of us ever get along without you and your vast experience with ancient hi-fi?
Halcro, you give Acoustic Solid FAR too much credit! I'll put a Scout(!) up against their top piece. The US importer provides speaker cable margin on this line. At retail. Which is so unrealistic, words fail me as to how I might draw a comparison. Fishing line, tied in a KNOT for a belt!
NO, that can't be audible!
Raul, How is that list coming, buddy? Z. |
Raul, We are waiting for this list of "crappy" 12s. Although I doubt there is much risk of any of us picking up any of these crappy/vintage/obsolete throwaways, you owe us an answer. I see looking at your system pics a very real reason you may be having so much trouble making accurate comparisons that might lead to actually improving your system. Any first-year engineering student would understand the negative effects of having more than one tonearm mounted. You essentially have four antennae picking up room energy, at four different freqs and feeding all these resonant freqs into your phono stage. In the form of distortion! Take all that junk off and have a listen. You can thank me in the morning! Z. |
Raul, while everybody appreciates your enthusiasm, it sure does seem to be difficult to get you to benefit from more knowledgeable members. You posted that only the manufacturers could answer the OP. I suggest you do call or write to Tri Mai. Mr. Triplanar, as I'm sure you know. This gentleman is perhaps one of the nicest, most affable, most knowledgeable folks I know in the business. He could most certainly explain the differences that have lead to dramatic improvements to a tonearm you claim is no better now than 20 years ago. Will you believe him? Next, I suggest a phone call to Mr. George Merrill. I'm sure that name rings a bell? He would be happy to talk to you. There may not be another person on the planet who is more qualified to help you get the most from your vintage equipment. He can also explain why, and which components have come the farthest in the last thirty years. The average age of most of your system. I look forward to hearing from you after the conversations! Z. |
Dear speedy, I have been collecting lps for about 30 years. At last count I had over 6000. I quit counting some time ago... I still have the turntable I bought before I bought my first lp. It would be my pleasure to point you to the shelves and say "pick which ever you want" and we will play them. First, on my 30-some year old turntable, that looks and performs better than new, and was "state of the art" 30-some years ago. Then we will play it on something quite new, though SEVERAL rungs down from SOTA. You can tell me/us which one made the music more enjoyable for you. I think I know the answer, and if I'm wrong, you can HAVE the new turntable! How's that? |
Dear, And I do mean Dear Sirspeedy, I have been in agreement with you all the way through this thread. I too am in it for the music. I offered an answer to the OP early on, and a member with almost no logic or science to support it, offered advice that if followed, would make us all look bad. I responded again, and started getting tons of mail from members (that I had never had contact with!) cheering me on. This gentleman has a system that sounds like, well, Halcro put it best, "second rate". I can almost give the guy credit for being so stubborn, but he is so far off base... In a contest between this fellow and the world (which it seems to be) I'm bettin' on the world. Know what I mean? Anyway, if my house was on fire, I'd get as many LPs as I could FIRST, and leave the gear. Most of which is, arguably, SOTA. BTW, that was a 15,000 dollar turntable you just let get away! You can still come over, any time. Z. |
Sirspeedy, we agree once again. Openmindedness (is that a word?) is at the crux of this forum. Halcro puts it so perfectly. I, as an example, continue to listen to some old lps. It is the rare exception, rather than THE RULE, that the old ones sound better than the latest crop. The thing is, neither you nor I are in a position to "decree" that old stuff "unfortunately" is so much better than the current SOTA. Or that only new is good. SO WE DON'T! Our community is "blighted" by any member who opposes this common sense approach. Like I said, my mail box is full to overflowing. At retail, I have in excess of 100k just in cabling in my system. You better believe that I tried VERY hard to take a different perspective, to stand back, to ask, not answer, before opening my wallet this wide. Then I tried again! (MY wife) You and I Sir, we get it. As does most of the membership. Our mission, should we choose to accept it (we must) is to spread, even if just a little, this common sense, this perspective, this openmindedness (once again), this willingness to listen and (maybe) learn. You can still come over any time... Z. |
Sir, I have done more than my share of similar demos. I use a slightly different tactic: I start with their mp3 then play a CD, then the same mat'l on SACD. By this time there are several pools of drool to wipe up. THEN, the same mat'l on vinyl. I love to watch the head scratching, the audible questioning of their own sanity, and the inevitable "what is behind the curtain?" kids that just can't quite believe it. Big fun, you're fighting the good fight! We may actually be getting somewhere with "you know who" !! I see in the last response a glimmer of hope, "one way/road". Perhaps, there is another/several? Yippee!!! Pretty soon, we may see an aknowledgement that even perfectly executed 25 year old drum brakes are, in deed "second rate". I will not hold my breath for "I am/was wrong". But you Sir, can come over any time. Z. |
My Dearest Sir Mr. Porter Sir, Sir is short for Sirspeedy, Sir. Although this gentleman commands the respect, I call him Sir mostly because he agrees with me! We aren't facing down any criminals, just attempting to convince another gentleman to remove his head from way too deep inside of his you-know-what. So that he might be better able to hear the voice of reason. Can I borrow the 312S, Sir? Z. |
Sir Albert,
(oohh! I like that!) Sir can always be used to great effect. Apparently, not good enough to land me a 312s, however. The Alka-Seltzer link reminds me of a song...(hey, you have your show, Sir) I won't rest now until I dig it out. Is it STYX? "Too much time on my hands". Mr Porter Sir, don't you think time would be better served disassembling and carefully packing the 312? We, Sir, are also dealing with a very serious matter here in this thread; A gentleman with perhaps 10k total investment, along with HUNDREDS of hours of wasted time, claims his system approach is the ONLY way to go, and further Sir, that it performs better than what you and I have achieved COMBINED! Alright Sir, I should leave you be. Remember: righty tighty, lefty loosy! Tracking # ? Z. |
Okay, This ought to be good! Please tell me what I am missing here. I can't find a drum anywhere. My '67 XKE had discs. (poorly executed) That was, by my math, at least 40 years ago. That's "19"67... Let's check in shall we; this IS 2008, right? A Nissan Sentra has discs. A Hyundai has discs. My BICYCLE has discs... Back to fifth grade science again; metal expands as temp increases, with me so far? Drums GROW when used, (the whole idea behind brakes!) The shoes get FARTHER from the drum the more they are used. Becoming ineffective. (opposite of the whole idea behind brakes) Ever wonder why those runouts are built on the DOWNHILL side of the road? Got any idea how they slow a FREIGHT TRAIN down? An Airplane? You are just messing with me, right? Discs are bound by the same physics (sorry, it's true) they also GROW when hot, getting CLOSER to the pads. Becoming MORE effective. You are laughing, aren't you? Same goes for carburetors too, right? Blows fuel injection away, when it's done right? How about you rattle off a few examples where that applies! If you are still using a quill pen and an Abucus, how did you access this thread? OH NO, not utilizing modern technology! NNNOOOO!!!!! Z. |
Mr E, Back when your cars had drums (I think they were actually called Horseless Carriages, right?) the vehicle didn't last 60,000 miles, come on! Your perception of increased stopping power is correct. As power increased, and traction improved (or are you in the bias ply camp too?) wear, temporarily increased. Ancient history. Lighter weight, not so sure... Certainly not today. (Think ceramic) You posted from a computer, yes? The "good old days" really weren't, were they... Z. |
Sir, Perhaps there will come a time when we disagree, this is not it. I too appreciate the enthusiasm and passion of this other member. Once again, it's the REFUSAL to accept that anything newer can be better. We have enough challenge (fun?) convincing the next gen that Vinyl is our highest resolution source (not now, tape guys!) without someone who obviously has no idea what current SOTA is, preaching his ideas as ALL THERE IS. THAT is the problem here. Read the posts. Seven hundred and fifty some "answers" and no questions... Very telling. Sure, you and I might know what to take with a grain of salt, but someone might actually believe the guy! My turn to go a bit off topic; if your grandson was walking across an intersection in the rain and the light goes yellow, do you want the guy with SOTA drum brakes to be in the vicinity? Or the guy with ABS, all other things being equal? The guy with the drums can preach all he wants, nobody is listening, they haven't been for twenty years or so. This "other" member could have listeners and the junk he claims is SOTA can be obtained. CHEAP. Worse yet, installed and used! Point is if a newbee stopped there, the 99 dollar "Best Buy" uni will sound better. And we have lost another one. Not to mention, now my 45's cost 60+ bucks not 50+. These forums are a great place for folks wanting to share a better idea, or an OPTION, not a revisionist history class. |
Inept, Show me the brakes. Seriously, I did finish 5th grade. Actually went a little bit further, let's just keep that between you and I. For at least my benefit, please demonstrate the criterea you use to make your diagnosis of my current malady. Any cars, planes, boats(!), trains, motorcycles, or any other thing that rotates, and is slowed or stopped by the use of drums? That was built in THIS CENTURY? I put the boat in there just in case you think they have "brakes" by ANY classical definition. My boat TRAILER does in fact have disc brakes on one axle. I missed the dynamics part, where was that? I swear I don't remember expounding on vehicle dynamics. I was saving that for another post! Can you cure this malady? Can you fix any of the other things that are wrong with me? Shall I make you a list? |
Inept, I always liked: "If you think education is expensive, try paying for ignorance" Is that a "malady" as well?
Sir, the grandson thing was a rheto... something question. I can't spell it. It is too dynamic a word for me! Z. |
Yes Mr. Onhwy Sir, it does, along with this rather large, and quite powerful electric motor(s) that is used to slow the vehicle. I know you knew that, was that a test? And I promise to try to be more positive in the future. You Sir,(not you Sir, Onhwy) are one of our community's greatest assets. Please keep an eye on me. I don't always take my medicine...
Now Sir, that's what you are getting for now, Speedy for short just doesn't sit well with me. Selfish? Sirspeedy takes too long. Unless that is your wish Sir. LMK. OH, and Please knock it off with the PC thing about who cares, this is important! Darnit! (you are an asset too) I haven't left you out! Feel better? Plus, you can come over any time.
Alright, where is this guy with my brake lesson? This Mr. Inept Innovations character? (isn't that one of those oxymoron things?)I want to learn! And whatever happened to the discussion of 12 inch tonearms? And how much better vintage/obsolete arms perform in comparison? Z. |
Onhwy, I had this feeling... I checked, the Prius has discs up front. I KNEW IT!! Just has to, it was/is after all, built in this century! Gotcha! Z. |
Gidday Mate! Yeah, I had to let that one go... Mr Halcro has helped me too much. The Linn should be night and day to the 3. Mr. Halcro waits for the one he can hit out of the park. The new rig will be the last, I bet. And there's NO WAY anybody goes back from a Raven. Had to let that by as well... Hey, do you ever buy LPs with MUSIC on them? Z. |
Sir, I promised the first member that mailed me privately "huge entertainment value". I intend to deliver on that promise. I am now going to attempt to defuse(?) a little criticism. A pre-emptive sort of clarification, if you will. Read my lips, "there is nothing wrong with enjoying a system built to a budget. New or used. Oh yeah, and mis-matched stuff sounds bad." There. New SOTA stuff however, outperforms old SOTA stuff. Period.
Inept, You are so far out in left field on this one buddy. EVERY E brake I have ever seen is cable actuated. On rear disc cars, it is a seperate little set of pucks, NO DRUMS. Please do not try to tell us that four wheel disc vehicles also have drums at the rear? I'm going clear back to my Jag. I put vented 13" GM rotors and Wilwood 4 piston calipers up front. Driver adjustable bias control, and spent more time under the rear of that automobile than I care to remember, trying to achieve something/anything that would resemble brakes. The only thing that did work, for a short time, 'till the diff or calipers puked oil/fluid all over them were the E brakes. The seperate, cable actuated set of mini-calipers, of the NON DRUM configuration. I just know you're kidding, or there is a camera here somewhere. You CAN"T be serious!?!
Now, does anybody want to (whatever Sir called it) about 12 inch tonearms? It seems like a lifetime ago I was wanting to share the improvement I heard going from a 9 that I have been tweaking on for years to a 12. Right out of the box. I still have some playing to do. Anyone? Z. |
Inept, Please proof your last sentence and repost. Lack of clairvoyance is unfortunately, also one of my maladies. Also, you don't HAVE to address me as Dr.Z. Mr.Z. Or Sir Z. will suffice. I am flattered. If there is a camera here you can see me blushing right now, yes? One last thing, I do seem to remember one or two vehicles with a disc (that is to say a disc of the non drum variety) E brake on the driveshaft. Quite common on Hot Rods at the tranny end. Porsche did it on the 924/944/928 cars, if memory serves. When can we start on vehicle dynamics? Really one of my favorite subjects! Z. |
Thomas, Yes I believe it is. You correctly suggest when employing as close to The Scientific Method as possible, one can A-B for oneself. I give credit to the engineers and designers to have done at least some of that for me. Reduced tracking error is a gimme. Materials and measuring tools, costruction techniques and equipment that were not available or affordable just a few moments ago, allow the theory to be realized in the form of product we can employ for more accurate reproduction. Competition for market share helps us pesky end users more able to afford this new advantage. Plus they look killer, remember? Z |
Well, I've heard it said "ignorance is bliss". I have also heard and experienced much bliss down Mexico way. Great place to "get away" from "modern technology" Lots of history to "discover" there as well. There is nothing wrong with enjoying history. I quite encourage it. Having knowledge of the past protects one from repeating the mistakes of the past. Without an in depth knowledge of history, we would be unable to ducument our progress to the current day. I am sure most would agree Black and White photography actually brings something to the art. No one would use it however, to "recreate" an accurate depiction of the subject matter, outside a black and white world. One would employ modern technology to accomplish that. The higher (newer) the technology employed , combined with the expertise at exploiting that technology, the closer to the original the result will appear. Some folks prefer a paint brush to recreate the picture they "see". Very few painters however, would try to convince anyone their art could be mistaken for the real subject matter. Or that paint and canvas is "unfortunately" all there is. Unless perhaps they were "cut off their ear nuts"! Z. |
Toys? Antiques? Artifacts from a previous generation? Physical evidence that proves just how far we have come with our hobby/avocation?
Sir, I believe Linears are/have benefitted from SOTA mat'ls and such as well. I'm saving my allowance as we speak. I am having difficulty with one decision: I could have many low value/quality tonearms and cartridges, or I could invest in one or two New High Performance arms and cartridges. Is your son going to many "crappy" med. schools or just a couple that are the best he/you could access? HHMMMM.... Z. |
Halcro, If it's alright with you, I will just forward my thoughts to you in synopsis form. And let you eloquentize them. Your prose sir, and your (I need a word to put here) are well, really good. SOTA, if you will. Z |
Sir, I can get the wood for you, direct from Italy,if you ever find anything you prefer. The POINT is, you know it could be better, you don't decree that "unfortunately today system is nobueno". Or the sillier(?) "you could try it!" Your mind is not closed shut, and buried up your you-know-what. Savvy? You agree that such an attitude is mui peligroso. You have no need to feel simperwensa. Si? Z. |
Mr. D, Let me have some fun! My taste is all over the map. Good production = heavy rotation at the Z house. Mr Halcro, I believe Rega owned several price points in the past. They are a price point line. The prime reason I think Acoustic Solid is uncompetitive today is that they use Rega arms way too far up the line. Having a little trouble on the suspended issue, however. Another design where things have come a LONG way. A brand new Linn may sound similar to one from 1985 but I have a VYGER here, that for the money, has been a real eye opener. PLUS, it will accommodate a 12. The new MS tables are pretty wonderful as well. Regardless of price. I could go on... The HRX has little real competition at it's price point. IMO. You should see how many are used at CES. Plus it can use the 12. We are going to see more 12s fellas, it is better on paper, and getting easier to build with lower mass, shorter "moment" etc... can't wait! Z. |
Sir, Speakers truly are a subjective matter. As you can see, I just sold a pair of 20 year old speakers that I liked VERY much. There is old and then there is old; I had ADS speakers in my CAR (!) 20 years ago! The brand had, by this time become obsolete/uncompetitive in the home use market and for a few brief moments they were SOTA in car stereo. The last dying gasp, so to speak. No need to defend Avalon, they are certainly in the top 10? Any company that just survives 20 years in hi-fi is a testament to consumer acceptance. Happy listening! Z. |
Downunder, Are you one of the very few lucky listeners to have purchased the MJ Thriller reissue? I would recommend this to everyone but with production so limited, there can only be so many winners here! HA! I crack myself up sometimes... Hey, have you guys heard the one about the guy who found 18 old tonearms floating down the gutter? I try to bang my own head against the wall as few times as possible before realizing a headache is coming on. Seriously, Down, you wouldn't be willing to PDF me that hi-fi + article would ya? Z. |
Downunder, I know you were away, you missed some entertaining stuff. I too have gennies, plus a Mastersound half speed or two. This new one is way good. I had to open another sealed original to check in with myself. There is info on the new one I have not heard before. Serious!
Swampy, how about we count how many Yamahas are out there vs. Strats. Or, as an option, how many 300 year old trees we could cut down and send to Yamaha? Can you say supply and demand? You sir, might want to read a little more. You might also want to go price a new SOTA piano some day (!) vs used. I picked disc vs drum knowing (silly me) there was nobody left on the planet clueless enough to actually prefer them. There is indeed a compromise to cost no object items; THE COST. Perhaps this is why you eschew them? There is a tremendous amount of genuine progress regarding material(s) one can use to make stuff going on, at this moment. News on the subject is easy to find, just look. "You could try it!" This research would, however, cut in on forum pontificating time. Another compromise?
Salectric picked just one example where you are also in the wrong camp with this "always" idea. The world was always flat too, until it wasn't. Was it flat UNTIL it was accidently circumnavigated? I wonder? I am glad we are gathering up all the non-technical here. I can do one on one, but I like to reach whole groups if at all possible. To be continued... Z. |
Not bad Sir, not bad. One must hear live music, however. One must. Playing, better yet. Wouldn't hurt to see how much anything reinforced just the tiniest bit is compressed, gated, distorted (deliberately) and otherwise messed with. Reproducing THAT sound is a goal for the room as well. Analog is in the tweaks, yes it is. We agree again. I can't quite afford to have the 'Stones play in my Great Room, so I do try to keep current and expose myself to a variety (but not that gawdawful stuff Down buys!) to better assist in my quest for the next best thing. (my run-on) Keeping ones head ABOVE the sand and out of ones you-know-what can be a tremendous advantage as well. "You can try it!" Z. |
Swampy, Rather than have you think I am a xe... big words... Since it is you who hasn't been reading, let me quote someone with more credibility than I. This gentleman speaks (spoke) to the crux of this thread: "He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave." William Drummond 1585-1649 Please read this, perhaps several times, and get back to me. Happy listening! Z. |
