Esoteric DV-50: Any cdp's Significantly better?

First of all, thanks for all the responses that I got. I really appreciate the candor, comparative analysis and information from all who responded. Now, here are my final thoughts (somewhat long winded but I believe necessary) and I invite all who responded before (as well as any newcomers to this thread) to chip in and ad their rebuttals:

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!

Last night (8 hours) I did an extensive AB comparison between the DV 50 and the Electrocompaniet EMC SE 1 UP (has the full monty of upgrades available)and again the DV 50 wins. The attributes of the Electro are it sounds more analog, has a slightly wider sound stage, has deeper bass and seemed to have a more quieter background (at least initially) than the DV 50. I was quite impressed with my inital listening sessions (and I'm still impressed) with this awesome player.

However, after prolonged listening sessions and comparisions I began to really pinpoint the reasons for those differences. First of all, the DV 50 is extremely transparent...not only to the music but to other componenets in the chain. This is an important distinction to make as they are not the same thing. (More on that in another forum)! But the DV 50 is ever so slightly warm.. the Electro is very warm. One of the "perceived" benefits of warmth is most audiophiles associate it with a "more analog sound". But warmth at the loss of transparency is not a benefit to me and that was definitely the case here.There is a thin layer of "haze" on the Electro that doesn't allow the music to cut through as well as the DV 50. This haze is a lack of absolute transparency.

I've also noticed that many so called "analog sounding players" achieve that affect by pushing the soundstage behind the plane of the speakers which gives a more laid back presentation and the perception of more soundstage depth. In truth, what this does is reduce some of the detail that would normally be in the listeners face and "opens up the soundstage" by the old adage "less is more". The perception is the noise floor and background is quieter...but it only sounds quieter because notes, dynamics, details that would normally be upfront are being heard to a lesser degree. In reality musical detail that was recorded on the disk is being minimized by the player's perspective. Notes and harmonics between notes don't cut through the soundstage as cleanly on the Electro. The DV 50 is also morre truthful in timbre accuracy. I noticed for example the brush used on the ride symbols in jazz music is more distinct and separated than on the Electro. The brush sounds different (as it should) on different cymbals with the DV 50 whereas with the Electro its all homogenized into one sound.

Another drawback is that you lose the sense of immediacy and urgency that can come across with artists who are known for that. Ray Charles and Rod Stewart are two artists who come to mind that consistently sing music that beneifts from a sense of immediacy (Joe Cocker on "You are so beautiful to me" ) is anotherexample. But the point I'm trying to make here is on these types of songs I want a "front row perspective" to be able to feel the raw emotion. That's what the DV 50 does. The Electro gives you a 3rd or 4th row perspective that, while maybe sounding more analog it errs on the side of reducing detail by making it less noticeable..even though the disk may have been recorded otherwise.

Forall you Electro owners, please note I never said your unit was less detailed...it in fact has plenty of detail. I only said that detail is less pronounced and shifted back in the soundstage so it doesn't draw as much atention to itself. As an audio purist I want to hear the music the way it was recoreded..not the way an audio company wants me to hear it. I've heard enough of the DV 50 now (and compared it to enough players) to know that it is a very transparent player.

The bottom line between the two players...the DV 50 is more transparent, has a tigher, more detailed bass (Electro bass goes a touch deeper),is more dynamic and is more detailed. The Electro has a wider soundstage, warmer sound, better bass depth and may be more pleasing to some audiophiles ears because it is less of its less "forward" perspective. I like the DV-50 better and so does Stereophile (Class A+ rating), Soundstage and many other reviewers.

Now, in response to those who added their comments to my original e-mail:

Reb 1208- I respect your opinion but there's no way the DV 50 is over the top in dynamis and bass. There's also no way its not transparent. Earlier I made a point about the DV 50 also being transparent to the rest of the components in your system and it sounds like you may have other links in your chain that may exacerbate or react aggressively with the DV 50. Also, there is nothing "sub-par" about the redbook performance of this player. Its a great cd player.

Drhst20 & Springbok- Thanks for your feedback. You both have had the benefit of listening to other cd players that costs multiples of what the DV 50 costs. That's where I'm headed as I beleive the only way to really know how good a component is to to judge it against the very, very best and then see whatconcessions/trade-offs have been made in regards to price vs. performance. I hope to get my hand on some $10,000 plus cd players in the near future.

Sinsosin- I agree with you that there are a number of different players that may outperform the DV 50 in one or two areas but overall the 50 is still superior. I haven't even begun to experiment with power cords or isolation/vibration control units.

711 Smilin- There's a saying in in the computer world "garbage in garbage out". Denon is known to use very cheap parts in their players and the 2900 (or 2910) is no exception. These are decidely mid-fi players and its hard for me to believe that they can be modded to come anywhere near the performance of the DV 50.

Even if you change the dac, op amps, capacitors, resistors, power supply, etc there's still the issue of cheap PCB boards, poor circuit paths and most importantly a cheap transport to begin with. I know mods are all the rage right now but it reminds me of friends of mine in high school who would go to the gym and workout but instead of taking a shower afterwards they would dry the sweat off and put on cologne to hide the stink. You can only hide it for so long! The denon's are cheaply built to begin with. And I was struck by the fact that in cd playback the 2200 sounded better than the 2900. I ab'ed both of them extensively about a year ago. The 2200 is a $600 retail player and it sounded better (in cd playback) than a $1,000 player.

I live in the Chicago area and it seems so do you. I'd love to bring my DV 50 to your place (or vice versa) for a face off. Are you upt to it?

By the way, all of my listening tests on the DV 50 were done with the filter in the middle (FIR) position. Not only do I find this setting to sound more natural, it does the least upsampling which tends to keep the bass tighter and not over exaggerate certain frequencies. Vocals sound more focused and natural. I've noticed with some upsampling players that decay and attack of notes can sound exaggerated and the same holds true for treble detail (like symbols, bells, etc). This is less so on the DV 50 but can still be heard depending upon the music.

Again, thank you everyone and please add your comments. Let's keep this thread going!

AVGURU

Rex,

I don't think I said the DV 50 was the "best" anywhere in my thread. I just pointed out the players that I've compared it to and IMHO I think it sounds better than those. You ask why I even bothered to ask for opinions? I did because I wanted to know if anyone else had compared their DV 50 to the players I listed (or players in the same price range as the DV 50 or those I listed) and if so what conclusions did they come to. Its very possible that my ears are prejudiced after owning one for 6 months. Or maybe I'm hearing things that others don't.

I find it very interesting that everyone whose responded to my thread keeps pointing to players that are twice the price of the DV 50...or they mention dac/transport combo's that are really expensive. I explicitly put a disclaimer in my original thread that I HAD NOT LISTENED NOR COMPARED THE DV 50 TO DAC/TRANSPORT COMBO'S as its not a fair comparision. Of course, a Levinson, Goldmund or DCS Verdi Stack combo will handily beat the DV 50. We all know that. I was looking for another player (not necessarily a universal) in the same price range of the DV 50 which is signficantly better.

So far, from the responses that I've received it doesn't seem that anyone has any suggestions. I have yet to hear anyone come to the defense of any of the players I've mentioned. And keep in mind these players are not chopped liver...these are great players, especially the Ayre CX 7, the Arcam CD 33T and the Electrocompaniet. It just so happens that everyone participating in this thread seems to be fortunate enough to either have the funds or the means to realistically set their sights on the best of the best in terms redbook playback. For the average audiophile (such as myself) even purchasing the DV 50 at $5,500 is a stretch.

So right now, based on the limited responses I've received, it seems that there are no other players (either stand alone or universal)in the $5,550 price range or less that equal the DV 50 in redbook performance. If that's not the case, I'm open to suggestions. I don't know about you guys, but I'm finding regular redbook cd playback to be exciting and there are a bunch of cd's that are really well recorded out there that sound absolutely gorgeous when played on some of the top digital front ends. It goes to show that cd's came out before their time (recording lables were more interested in lowering their costs and fattening the bottom line) than improving the sound of music. Its only been in the past 6-8 years that digital playback technology has been able to develop to a level that it can now really exploit and showcase the virtues of cd's.

I am quickly losing my interest in SACD and DVD-A and I could easily live with a top-notch redbook player and just buy a cheap universal like a Pioneer or Denon when i'm in that rare mood to hear an SACD or DVD-A disc. I really feel that when cd is done right (both in the recording and playback) it gives up very little to SACD if anything at all. SACD is too hit or miss..some discs are very good and others are just average. I have both Norah Jones and Diana Krall's latest cd's in both redbook and SACD and I hands down prefer the redbook version on both. I even listened to the SACD versions of both on the Krell SACD Standard and Classe Omega and still prefered the redbook version. Both of those listening sessions were done at a dealer, not my home.

Any redbook cd player suggestions please let me know.

AVGURU

TVAD,

I've already sent 711 Smilin and e-mail and I'm hoping we can do a face-off this upcomming weekend. As I said before, I will gladly eat humble pie and give proper respect to the Denon if in fact it is better than the DV 50. At the lower price you mention I can finance the purchase of the 2900 100% from the proceeds of selling my DV 50.

My only request is that 711 have a pre/pro with balanced inputs. That's how the DV 50 sounds best. If not, I will galdly bring my Anthem D1 Statement.

Tvad, thanks for your responses and I will definitely keep you posted of the results. I know you are sitting back smugly waiting for me to eat crow (which i will galdy do since I can save $2,000 in the process) but I doubt very seriously the 2900 is on the level of the DV 50. One thing I've noticed about 6 Moons reviews is that they beat around the bush alot in terms of performance issues. (Too much editoralizing and not enough getting to the point). Also, I like technical measurements and detailed analysis (similar to what Atkinson of Stereophile does) or plain talk like Michelson of Soundsstage. 6 Moons provides neither.

AVGURU

TVAD,

When I wrote that line I was actually laughing! Don't take me so seriously. I get a kick out of these type of discussions and it would be unfortunate if you pulled out of our thread! I value your feedback tremendously...so much so that after your second e-mail prodding me to consider the Denon I contacted 711, we have correponded and and we will be getting together soon.

It's always diffcult when you're communicating by word to convey your true feelings or give someone an accurate impression of who you are. But trust me I look at this as a way to have fun and hopfelly get educated at the same time. I guess I come accross as to some as very pro-Esoteric but that's only because I HAVE AB'ED the DV 50 to an impressive list of gear. It's not like I'm going out on a limb blindly without doing any of my homework. However, I'll gladly concede that I've certainly haven't heard everything out there (nobody can).

Yes, I'm a little opinionated but not hard headed. Stick with me, TVAD. I'd like to e-mail you when I finish our comparision test. To any others out there reading this who think I'm "brainwashed" by Esoteric I apologize!

AVGURU

Hey guys,

Thanks for keeping this thread alive! People are starting to bring up a lot of good points and mentioning a lot of good cd players. Before I address individual comments I'd
like to give out some valuable information that everyone will find helpful:

www.amusicdirect.com is an audiophile store that carrys a wide selection of audiophile cd's. However, many people don't know they are authorized dealers for Marantz, McCormack and Esoteric to name a few. They have a 30 day return policy on anything you buy. So those of you interested in the DV 50, McCormack UDP-1 or the very new Marantz SA 11 (replacing the 14) can order one, do a home demo and if not satisfied return it and get a full refund. You're only responsible for shipping charges. Marantz just came out with the DV 9500 (replacing their universal DV 8400) and the audio quality is supposed to be vastly superior to the 8400. It retails for $2,000. I have not heard it.

There's also www.usedcables.com. You can check out any interconnect or speaker cable for a small deposit. They also carry Esoteric and you can get a free home demo.

Now, to answer your questions:

Guidocorona, the Krell SACD player is decidely different from the rest of Krell's cd players..which normally exhibit strong bass, agressive and forward presentation with gobs of detail. The SACD standard is smooth, analog sounding and very even handed across the total frequency range. Some will find its presentation more to their liking than teh DV 50. I felt it was boring and mechanical. All the elements were there but it didn't excite me. But that's my peronsal opinion.

I keep hearing such great things about the Audio Rsearch CD III and the AudioMeca Research Mephisto II and I would LOVE TO HEAR THESE TWO. Both of these players have been around for a while and have a strong and loyal customer base. I believe these two players are at the very top of the list of the best players out there and they probably outperform the DV-50. But I haven't heard them to confirm.

Ggil, The McCormack UDP-1 lives up to the hype in terms of its redbook performance. Very nice, transparent, good soundstage, fine detail..probably on the level of the Arcam CD 33T or the Ayre Cx-7..both of which I feel are excellent cd players. However, the DVD-A, SACD and especially the DVD-Video is not on the same level as the redbook cd playback..which is a shame since SACD has the potential to consistently outperform redbook. My feeling is if you're going to pay for a universal player you should get one that stives to be great for all forms of playback.

Bye the way, I should add no one ever talks about the video on the DV-50 but it is also outstanding. The new version (DV-50S) is suppose to be even better on video due to an improved video dac and DVI output.

Manineiac & Russell, I've heard very, very good things about the Lector and the Naim cd players but have yet to hear them. However, I'm starting to see a trend where players that utilize seperate power supplies (seperate from the transport chasis) seem to have outstanding performance. Naim, Lector, Resolution Audio, Shiguraki Flatfish, etc all fall in this category. I'm thinking all of these players probably are at least equal to the DV 50...the Lector more musical and the Resolution Audio better detail, soundstage..just better. But to what degree I'm not sure.

Remember, when I started this thread I was looking for a player that significantly beats the pants off the DV 50 in terms of redbook performance. Two members feel the modded Denon 2900 from Exemplar does. I will find out shortly. But if all the players above only beat the DV 50 by a 5-10% margin it 's not worth losing DVD-A, SACD and DVD-Video playback for a small increase in redbook performance. SACD playback on the DV-50 is even better than redbook.

I'm thinking the Resolution Audio, Lector, Audio Rsearch and Memphisto maybe the players that siginificantly improve upon my DV 50 in redbook. Next week I hope to get a chance to listen to the daddy of all cd players...the Reimyo CDP 777 that retails for $14,000. many people believe this is the best cd player period in the market...However those who own Meitner gear and DCS Verdi gear may beg to differ. I'd also love to demo a high end Levinson cd player as I'm sure it will DEFINITELY give me a significant improvement over the DV-50...but the price of all these units is very steep.

Sim Audio just introduced a new universal called the Orbiter that retails new for $6,500. I have a lot of respect for Sim Audio and the pictures of it are stunning. Anyone heard a demo of this player?

Finally, many of the people that I've corresponded or talked that were not overly impressed with the DV 50 DID NOT DEMO IT THROUGH THE BALANCED OUTPUTS. I (as did Stereophile and Soundstage) found the balanced performance to be vastly superior to the RCA analog out performance. So, if you do not own a pre/pro with balanced inputs you will not have heard the DV 50 at its full potential. Esoteric makes it clear in their brochure that the DV 50 is a fully balanced design and needs to be operated balanced.

It's amazing to me how many people can spend $5,500 on a cd player but match it up with receivers or cheaper pre/pro's that don't have balanced inputs. Good components need to be matched with other components of like quality to realize their full potential! I personally would not buy a Lector Cd player if I did not have a pre/pro with balanced inputs...nor would I use it with a reciever...even a very high end one. It doesn't make sense to me.

Again, comments/suggestions wanted and appreciated..as well as thoughts on the new Sim Audio Orbiter!

AVGURU

Reb 1208,

I heard the Marantz SA 11 at an authorized dealer. I requested to hear it out of the balanced outputs as have most of their customers (The dealers words exactly). I "assume" he compensated for the inverted polarity by reversing the cables around. It's a simple thing to do. He was using a $1,800 Audioquest Sky balanced interconnect. I doubt very seriously that he has been demoing this unit balanced to all of his customers incorrectly. But I will ask him and since I plan on demoing the X01 again next Monday or Teusday I will ask for another demo on the SA 11.

You know, you really need to tone down your rhetoric a little bit and have an open mind. I readily admit that when I started this thread I was extremely pro-dvd 50 and didn't want to listen to others in regards to modded units. Admittedly, I'm still pro dvd-50...but I think everyone on this thread would now agree that they've seen me do a 360 degree turnaround. I've pretty much admitted to everyone that the modded Denon's are superior.

Conversely, your first comments on this thread indicated how anti- DVD 50 you were (and still are). Comments like "over the top dynamics" , "poor bass" and "a home theater piece trying to cram high end cd playback down your throat" let everyone know how you felt about this unit. As Sean indicated, to state that this player is not a high end cd player after all of the published glowing professional reviews (I count at least 10, many of which are international),numerous posts on audiogon, audioasylum, etc and consumer praises is absolutely ludicrous. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your unit (or maybe your dealer) or maybe you lost money when you re-sold your unit...I don't know.

Recently we haven't even heard from until you saw my comments regarding the Marantz SA 11...an item I guess you now own. I didn't even know you owned one (you never mentioned it on the thread) but for some reason you took my comments about your unit personally and started jumping all over the DV 50 again. Nothing that I say on this thread should be construed as being personal. I'm just trying to report the facts.

Now that I know you own the SA 11 (and vociferously praise its performance) I totally understand why you don't like the DV 50. They are at totally opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of voicing, sound characteristcs, timbre, presentation, etc. They're not even close. I described the sound of the Marantz very accurately. They try to re-create an analog sound by being overly warm, soft on dynamics and details and a laid back, less forward presentation. Absolutely no sparkle on the high end and soft,deep bass on the low end. Addtionally, Marantz has never been known for having a "highly transparent" sound. When I say that, I mean in comparision to the very best cd players, amps, etc.

There is nothing wrong with you prefering the sound of the Marantz. Many people do and that's why they're a very successfull company. But the modded Denons', Meitners, Esoteric's Reimkyo's, Burmeisters, etc are pushing the envelope trying to set new standards and levels of performance in digital cd playback. The Marantz SA 11 is nothing more than Marantz's attempt to improve on their highly sucessful SA 14 (vers. 1 & 2). It is by no means a "revoluntionary product" or a "statement piece", nor is it even the best in its class.

The DV 50 has revolutionized the industry by providing a level of performance for a universal player that was not thought possible only 2-3 years ago. As a result, other mfg's are now bringing new universal players to the market in droves trying to duplicate the success of the DV 50. The other mfg's I mentioned before have done the same (at one time or another) in their respective categories. More importantly, these level of achievements are so advanced and superior that years later the majority of their competitors still have not been able develop a product or introduce new technology that is either equal or significantly better.

The Marantz SA 11 is a good player...but on the level of the players we are talking about here. Last night I went to google and did a serarch on Esoteric DV 50. I found at least three reviews where the Marantz SA 14 was one of a list of players compared to the DV 50. In each case, the reviewers comments were "not even close". Again, the SA 11 is only slightly better than the SA 14.

Reb 1208, enjoy the music! I'm actually envious of you because you've found audio nirvana in a cd player and are now able to just sit down and enjoy the music. I, on the other hand, rue the day I started this thread and opened my mind to hear the Denon modded players. I've been miserable ever since and can no longer take solitude in the fact the DV 50 outperforms all others in its class. It doesn't...not by a long shot!

AVGURU

711,

I am definitely looking forward to hearing the Denon at my home. If in fact it sounds better than my Esoteric DV-50 (I'm talking redbook here) then bye-bye DV 50. I love my DV 50 for redbook but I'm looking for something that's a bit warmer and more musicalwithout sacrificing the incredible detail, resolution and transparency I enjoy from the DV 50.

I am going to miss running things balanced, however. The Exemplar modded Denon does not have balanced outputs. Despite what many people say about balanced only "appearing" to sound better because its louder, I know better. Balanced (short and long runs) brings blacker and quieter backgrounds, increased soundstage depth (not width) and deeper bass. I've proved it time and time again.

We will run the Exemplar Denon 2 ways...analog out and digital out. Analog out will put to test the quality of the analog output stages, op amps and internal dac of the Exemplar to see how it compares to the DV 50.

Then we will go digital out to my Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro..which has state of the art digital processing and automatically upsamples any incomming digital signal to 24/192. By switchingback and forth between digital and analog via the Anthem remote we will be able to hear which unit has the better dac...the Exemplar-Denon or the Anthem.

Interconnects (both balanced and rca) will be the incredible Nirvanna Audio SX and for digital we will use Kimber D-60 and Tributaries top of the line silver digital. I will use stock power cords and disconnect my line conditioners so we will hear the componenents "au naturale" with no outside colorations.

Rest of the system will include the Cary Cinema 5 amp (5 x 225)and B&W N803's. All speaker cables are AZ Satori Shotgun.

This ought to be fun. Let's get it on!

AVGURU

Guidocorona,

You bring up some good points.I actually have two stock cords for the DV 50 so I will use one of them on the DV 50 and the other on the Exemplar Denon. My rationale here is the stock cord for the Esoteric is at least as good as the Denon's and probably better. So they should be on equal footing.

I really do want to hear the traits of each player without the added benefit of power conditioners and after market chords. I agree that after the "stock comparisions" it would be nice to add after market cords to each to see how they affect the performance of each player. The problem is invariably one cord will probably affect or benefit one player more than another. I have yet to see a power cord affect two different cd players in the exact same manner...though I will prefice this statement by saying I've only used a total of five different after market power chords in my system. So there maybe others out there that are consistent from player to player.

Sinosin,

You and I have talked and we both have a love for (and have aggressively defended) the playback of the DV-50. It is a tremendous player (especially in its price range) and I highly recomnmend it.

However, this evening I had the pleasure of finally getting a first hand audition of the new XO1. I'm here to tell you (and you know how loyal I've been to the DV 50) that it is in a totally different league than the DV-50. I AB'ed the two units side by side.

First of all, I know you love SACD. In SACD this player is simply awesome. The air, sense of space around instruments, floating highs, breathiness of vocals, expansive soundstage, etc is just breathtaking. It was like I heard SACD for the first time...I'm not kidding. It was better than vinyl.

Regarding redbook, this also blows away the DV-50. I now realize the DV 50 has slightly excessive (maybe a better word is overly aggressive) dynamics and the sound is somewhat forward and highly energetic with loads of detail. The DV 50 has balls and doesn't try to hide it. It runs full out in a sprint and shows you everything it has. I loved this sound (especially the transparency and detail) until I heard thew XO1 tonight. I regret auditioning this player as now I want one.

In comparison, the XO1 is a much smoother and more even handed player. It takes you on a gently undulating ride on the waves of the water. Even when large dynamic swings in the music occurs it never loses its compusure. Wheareas the DV 50 might startle you with these swings, the X01 presents them in all their glory but on an even keel.

The soundstage is slightly wider but the presentation is less forward than the DV 50. Detail is abundant but its not waving its hand saying "here I am" like the DV 50. I listen to a lot of jazz and what I really noticed is that symbols, brushes on symbols, bells and other percussive detail are not as exaggerated or upfront. The DV 50 tends to spotlight these sounds and bring them too far forward in the soundstage. The XO1 provides the same detail but it doesn't unnaturally highlight it like the DV 50 can. Transients have more snap and are quicker. The bass has even more impact and slam than the DV 50 but with a touch more definition. Its a highly evolved and sophisticated sounding player.

The other two areas that it excels in is a richer, fuller sound (I noted pianos sound more richer and life like) and space. The space around instruments was incredible. With the DV 50, sometimes instruments on densely packed musical passages (i.e 5 or more instruments playing at the same time) fight with each other for space within the soundstage. A saxaphone may have a hard time breathing and showcasing its full tonal and timbral traits because the piano, guitar, bass and strings are all playing loudly at the same time. The XO1 easily allows each instrument to "breathe" through the musical mix.

The funny thing is the DV 50 is still a great redbook and SACD player and if I had never heard the X01 I wouldn't have noticed the above "weaknesses" of the DV 50.

Now, here's the killer that I know will drive you over the edge...the XO1 sounds 2-3 times better with SACD's than with redbook! With the DV 50 sometimes a very well recorded cd can equal the sonics of an SACD. Not with the XO1. The SACD playback is consistently much better than the redbook. Its quite magical!

Since you're not particularly fond of DVD-A (I am) it appears this is the player for you. You can always find a very good yet cheap stand alone dvd player. My next goal is to audition a UX-1...but after hearing the XO1 (and noting the reviews state the XO1 is slightly better than the UX1) I may also be willing to forgo DVD-A and DVD-Video in exchange for the lovely sweet sound of cd's and SACD on the XO1.

I highly recommend you audition one!

AVGURU

Well, fellow audiophiles..its been a rough day today. Rough because my trusty Esoteric DV-50 did not fare as well as I would have hoped against either modded Denon 3910...the Exemplar and the APL.

Before I go into details about the test results...let me just say that the majority of audiophiles are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to buying audio equipment. First of all, most of us (due to a lack of time and access) will only audition a very small fraction of what's out there before we make our buying decision. Secondly, we are heavily influenced by reviews..whether we want to admit it or not. Finally, the mfg's love to get us excited with their technical marketing talk regarding specifications, measurements, new technology, the latest chips/dac sets and all the R&D they've put into their latest model.

Its this last area which really bothers me because over the years I felt like I've built up enough technical knowledge to be able to decipher between what improvments/features are just "bells and whistles" and which ones are really important. For example, I've been taught (or led to believe) over the years that a superior transport, superior build quality (in terms of limiting chasis vibration and resonances)and upsampling means a lot in terms of performance.

The DV-50 transport (while not their famed VRDS one) is still clearly superior to the off the shelf one denon uses (either Pioneer or Philips). The 3910's build quality, while decent, is nowhere on the level of the DV-50's. Finally the DV-50 upsamples to some ungodly frequency rate (1,700) while the Denon (even with the mods) doesn't upsample at all.

Additionally, I've never been enamored with DIY products or professional modders. My attitude has always been "why waste time modding a cheaply built unit when you can just buy a high quality player from the get-go?" Also, how can a modder improve on a product that a company like TEAC-ESOTERIC (known for their formidible engineering prowess and enormous R&D budget)spent considerable time designing and developing? So my logical conclusion was that even with mods the 3910 can't possibly come close to the performance of the DV-50? Makes sense, right? WRONG!! DEAD WRONG!! In fact, both units (APL & Exemplar) actually surpase (rather handily I might add) the performance of the DV-50. Let's get to the test results.

The DV-50 was connected to my Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro balanced. The APL and Exemplar modded Denons were connected via their analog out RCA's. Interconnects used were Nirvanna SX Ltds and AZ Matrix reference II's. Power cords were stock. No line conditioners were used.

Let me first say that the choice of interconnects used wouldn't have mattered one bit! I could have used a $400 interconnect on the Denon units and a $2,000 interconnect on the DV-50 and the Denon's still would have won. That's because the sonic characteristics and improvements with the Denon's are unique to the player..not the accessories. That was very obvious. But for those of you who want to know I did use Nirvanna's on both players during my first round of tests.

From the first few notes played by either unit (Exemplar or APL) the differences were readily discernable and not small in magnitude. The Denon's sound was airy with more space between instruments and a wider soundstage. There was also more soundstage depth. More importantly, the Denon's consistently achieved a two dimensional and in some cases three dimensional soundstage. The DV-50 was always a one dimensional sound. With the Denons, the soundstage was properly layered from front to back...with vocals out front and guitars, keyboards, bass and drums all occupying their own separate and distinct layers one behind the other. With the DV 50, sometimes the drums and other instruments would try to share the front stage with the vocalist.

Detail retrieval (at least to my ears) was about the same. In compariosn to the Exemplar, the DV 50 had more bass slam lsam and weight but the Exemplar had better definition. I've always thought the DV 50 was a little heavy handed in the way it reproduces bass so the Exemplar was a nice change. The APL Denon had equal slam and impact in the bass but its texture was decidely softer, whic led to a more analog sound.

Speaking of analog, both Denon's had a slightly warmer sound but this did not come at the expense of a loss of transparency or high end extension..both of which are normal trade-offs for warmth. In fact, both units had a more extended and definitely less digital high's than the DV-50. Additionally, I would say both units seem to have a small degree of added transparency over the DV-50 because the backgrounds were quieter (the old adage "less is more" definitely applies here). I don't know if this means the noise floor of the Denon's were lower than the DV-50, but it seemed you can hear deeper into the soundstage with the Denon's than the Esoteric.

Turning to SACD (we only evaluated 2 channel)the magnitude of the performance differences were even larger with the Denon's easily besting the DV-50 in all of the above areas including detail. Some of SACD the discs we listened to on the Denon's actually sounded very close to vinyl.

To summarize, despite all of the individual sonic improvments brought forth by the Modded Denon's, it was the sum of all of these characterisitics that led to the most satisfying listening session I've ever had in my music room. The biggest difference was the two and three diminsionality that I spoke of earlier. The Denon's were just consistently more involving, engaging and musical. I also noted that I was tapping my foot and nodding my head more (even to ballads) than I was with the DV-50. There seemed to be added PRAT and I'm not astute enough to pinpoint why...it just had better rhythm and pace.

I'm not going to get into a discussion as to which modded Denon (the Exemplar or APL) was the better unit. But I will unequivocally tell you that both units are superior to the DV 50 in redbook and SACD. It pains me to say that but it is the truth.

The DV 50 is still a great unit and if you read the list of other high end players that it beat in my AB tests (part of my earlier thread) you will see that it is in a league of its own. However, if you are unwilling to accept any compromises and hope to achieve the performance levels of players twice the price of the DV 50 then auditioning either modded Denon is a great place to start!

AVGURU

Guidocorona,

That is the $1,000,000 question. Are the modded Denon's on par(or even surpass)the mighty X01? I'm not ready to answer that yet as I need to hear a head to head comparision. I won't make the mistake of under-estimating the modded Denon's again. And in all fairness, when I auditioned the X01 it was being played on $1,800 audioquest speaker cables, Legacy Whisper speakers (about 200 lbs each) and the amplification was the new Marantz Special edition 2 channel amps (I think model number was the 7SE or something like that). Also, the matching preamp. Each amp retails for $7,000 and the pre-amp is $7,500. More importantly, they had a seperate amp on each speaker. It was a decidely high dollar set-up. That's why its important I hear it on my sytem. I am trying to arrange for a home demo this week but I'm not sure if they're willing to let me do that. We'll see.

However, the X01 left a very strong impression with me and I can tell you some of the differences between the sound of the two units:

- In SACD the X01 was extremely impressive...not just great but almost out of this world. Detail retrieval in SACD was phenomenal.

- The redbook playback was extemely smooth and refined with a tightly focused soundstage and pinpoint imaging. The sound was much fuller than the DV 50.

- Bass was TIGHT with slam.

- The X01 is not a warm player hence it does not sound analog in redbook like the modded Denon's can. (SACD is another story). Its not cold or bright either...its playback is all about the truth.

-It was airier than the DV 50 but I want to say not quite as airy as the Denon's. It seems to me the Denon's put more air around the instruments while the X01 emphasizes space. They are not the same but its hard to describe in words.
The Denon has a slightly wider soundstage.

A key improvement over the DV 50 is soundstage depth and layering. But the Denon's excelled at this also.

The Denon may have slightly better dynmaics.

The PRAT factor on the Denon's were very good. I don't remember concerning the X01. However, I was surpised recently to find out that PRAT is not just a function of the cd player but also the pre-pro and amp. For example,
when I paired my DV 50 with the Bel Canto pre-pro it had an extremely transparent and dynamic sound but the pace was slow. When I replaced the BC with the Anthem D1, I lost a little of the dynamics and transparency but the pace and rhythm was much better and more aggressive...like comparing a marching band to a military "fast walk" exercise. So its hard to say which unit has better PRAT.

Both the denon's and the XO1 have a very refined and sophisticated sound. You can hear they are high end units.

To sum it as up, the Denon's (especially the APL) is like water coming out of a shower head...a wide, sweeping spray that is soft, airy, gentle and never harsh with extended highs and not as extended lows. Also has great dynamics.

The X01 (as I remember it in redbook) is like a high pressure waterhose. The soundstage is extremely focused and organized and every instrument has its proper place. It images extremely well. Dynamic swings are certainly heard and felt but never allowed to grab your attention to the point they take away from the musical flow. Instruments are timbrally correct and tonally rich but never "lush" like the Denon APL. If the disc is recorded poorly you will hear it more with the XO1 than either Denon.

Whereas the Denon's place a warmth and romanticism to the vocals that make you feel you can reach out and touch the singer...the X01 gives greater insight into the vocals...its like you've heard the words before but "never really heard them" until you listen through the X01.

Again, this is what I "remember" hearing but I need a refresher in the form of a direct face off. Should I get a chance to do that the results will be posted here.

AVGURU

OK CORRAL SHOOT-OUT RESULTS

The long awaited results are here...but unfortunately I must report that the dealer sold the demo UX-1 they had on the floor a couple of days before we arrived. That was a HUGE disappointment as I really wanted to face off the DV-50 against the UX-1. Oh well, the show goes on!

Before I start lets give a quick glimpse into the demo system:

Sonus Faber Cremona speakers
Hovland 2 channel sold state amp (no model #)
Thor tube pre-amp (no model #)
All cabling/interconnects by Cabasso/XLO
Stock power cords/no line conditioning
Theta Compli universal player/Audio Research cdp MK III (it was the latest version) Esoteric DV 50 Denon Exemplar 3910

This was the first auditon session (second followed at 711's house):

DV 50 vs. Theta Compli (CD/SACD)

Listeners: AVGURU,Jactoy, Audiophile friend of Jactoy, Dealer

No comparision..not even close. Theta sounded lifeless/mechanical. More importantly, it didn't sound like
a high end end player. Dealer explained that the Compli was really set up to be used as a transport with the Gen V or Gen VIII dac's. In that configuration it is a deadly combo that may have no equal! Compli was only slightly better in SACD than CD. Listening results were unamimous

DV 50 vs. Audio Research CD MK III

Listeners: AVGURU, JACTOY, Audiophile friedn of Jactoy, Dealer

I've heard the AR was supposed to be a great standalone cd player but again fared poorly against the DV 50. AR had a trmendously open and wide soundsatage and a warm, analog sound. The soundstage actually curled around and enveloped you. However, inside the soundstage there was nothing there. Poor imaging, no center imaging, detail was fuzzy, definitely not 2 dimensional. Everyone agreed the DV 50 was better.

Exemplar 3910 vs. DV 50 (CD/SACD)

Listeners: Jactoy, AVGURU, Audiophile friend of Jactoy,711,
Dealer

Again, the Exemplar threw a wider, more dynamic soundstage with living, breathing images that were at minimum 2 dimensional. Also surpised at the detail of the Exemplar as it was marginally more detailed ( a hard feat to accomplish against the DV 50). More air. It all adds up to a more musical presentation.

All were in agreement except for the dealer who felt the Exemplar had a "tin can" sound compard to the DV 50. We wrote it off as the dealer not being used to hearing anything remotely as "musical" on his showroom floor as the Exemplar.

NOTE: IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT ANY UNIT THE DV 50 BEAT THE EXEMPLAR DEMOLISHED! NO NEED FOR COMPARISIONS TO THOSE UNITS.

2ND LISTENING SESSION AT 711'S HOUSE

Listeners: AVGURU, JACTOY, 711

System Set-up:

Klipsch Cornwall Speakers
Tube Amps (forget name)
Exemplar 3910, APL 3910, APL 1000, Sony XA9000ES/Dan Wright
All cd players were direct to the amp/ no pre-pro
Power cord- Virtual Dynamics Nite I
No Power conditioning
Generic interconnects/speaker wire

Exemplar 3910 vs. APL 3910 (CD/SACD)

Tough call and the preference varies from song to song. But in the end the APL was consistently better sounding on most cd's than the Exemplar. Both units threw 2 & 3 dimensional soundstages. The Exemplar was slightly more transparent and detailed whereas the APL was more musical and engaging. The Exemplar was slightly more extended in the highs while the APL had the better and more detailed mid-range. Bass was solid on both units with detail and slam about equal. Results/conclusions were unamimous.

Sony XA900ES (Dan Wright) vs. APL and Exemplar 3910

This was the biggest surpise of the night. The Sony gave the most musical presnetation I personally have ever heard. Soundstage was routinely 3 dimensional, palapable and believable. Dianne Schure sounded like we were at a night club listening to her. What this player really excells at is space. Each musician on the soundstage has his own open and airy space to perform. No instrument/performanceis ever crowded or drowned out by another. When an instrumentalist solo's its as if the whole soundstage opens up for them to their thing (just like in a real concert where the other players will tone down their part and just add minor support) and then when that soloist finishes another hole in the soundstage opens up and another soloist takes the spotlight.

The other characteristic it excelled at was a full bodied, harmonically rich sound where you routinely heard 2nd and heard harmonics naturally roll off and decay into one another. The full harmonics of each instrument were easily displayed.

Finally the speed of transients as well as PRAT semed to be very good. We played some very fast jazz pieces (full bands with qucik horn sections and super tight rhythm sections) and the Sony just loved that stuff.

The Exemplar (and especially the APL) shared a lot of the same traits ..air, dynamics, bass impact, detail, three dimensionality, etc but in the areas of tonal richness, speed and spacing the Sony was superior. The APL took a little longer to warm and in all fairness as our session neared its end the APL started toclose the gap in terms of the degree of separation in these three areas. But it wss also clear to me that even with more time the APL would not have closed the gap to the point where the differences were miniscule.

Some may prefer the Exemplar or APL over the Sony as there were times where it sounded more accurate in absolute terms. But with a sound this musical it is very easy to
eschew any thoughts of accuracy and just enjoy the damn music!

It's time for me to go to bed. I will wrap up and summarize our listening sessions tomorrow. I have some interesting and rather favorable comments, observations and also some concerns about modded units and in particular the units that were demoed today.

AVGURU

711,

Friday would be a great day! However, the way most dealers work with home demo's is they like you to come on a Saturday evening (close to closing time) and then return it Teusday morning (most dealers are closed on Sunday's and Mondays). That way they can have the unit on the floor during showroom hours. I completely understand that.

In this case (because of the price) the dealer wants to charge my credit card $13,000 and then credit me when when I return the unit. Which is very unfortunate because I can go to two other dealers in this area and take anything I want home (regardless of price) with just my Drivers license and a copy of my credit card without having it run. And in any case, my credit card limit is about 2/3rd's of what they want and I'm certainly not going to the bank and pull out $13,000 out of one of my IRA's just to demo a cd player. That doesn't make sense.

So we'll see. If it doesn't work out its just a matter of time before one of my other dealers in the area (one of who is an Esoteric dealer) orders a demo unit. I've learned that when it comes to this hobby patience is definitely a virtue...otherwise you can really get screwed!

AVGURU

Guido,

That's an excellent idea and I will pose that question to 711. If the mountain won't come to you then sometimes you have to go to the mountain!

In the meantime I have some very good news! I found another dealer in my area that has both a DV 50 and a UX-1 on the showroom floor. He is more than happy to allow me to do a face off between both players. He's already told me that the UX-1 is considerably better than the DV-50 in both redbook and SACD but now I will get a chance to hear it for myself.

I actually spoke with Marc Michelson yesterday by phone (he reviewed both the X01 and UX-1 for Soundstage) and he told me that if he had to rank redbook performance of the three players that the X01 would be a 100, the UX-1 an 80 and the DV 50 about a 60. A 20% improvement in the redbook performance over the DV 50 is still quite substantial and would bring it closer to the modded Denon's. It depends on what areas the improvements lie in. But as far as producing two and three dimensional soundstages its going to be hard to beat the Denon's. I must admit that although the X01 offers better CD and SACD playback than the UX-1 I'm still torn between the two as the UX1 plays all formats and my system does double duty as both a 2 channel and HT set-up.

I'm also excited because this same dealer carries the Audio Research CD MK III (latest model) which is supposed to be a killer redbook only player and has many great reviews. It also has tubes like the modded Denon's so it shoudl give me a sound " at least in the same category...if not the sonic equal" of the modded denon's. Of course, I will AB the redbook playback of the AR against the DV 50. The dealer has already told me that the UX1 is a better redbook player than the AR unit. If that's the case it says a lot about the UX1. However, I don't know if its true as I found the Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP to provide better redbook than the DV 50 (despite my initial listening tests that led me to believe otherwise).

Tomorrow will be a GREAT DAY as I plan on doing all of my listening tests then. 711, if you want to go out to Morton Grove with me tomorrow (and bring your modded denon's) let me know. However, if you wish to just wait and make the ultimate comparision against X01 we can do that this weekend downtown.

Boy, being an audiophile is a great hobby!!

AVGURU

Jmpwme,

I looked long and hard at the Goldmund universal 18D. Actually, I think there is a higher one called the Eidos or something like that. There are definitely two models..I don't know if you're looking at the mid-level one or the
top of the line unit. I never did listen to it and the one dealer we have in my area doesn't carry that model.

Goldmund makes excellent gear and their amps and dac's are some of the worlds finest. Unfortunately, they pissed off a lot of dealers around 6 years ago by suddenly and totally pulling out of the U.S. market without advance notice or warning. Dealers were left with no technical/repair support and were stuck with units they couldn't unload. Over the past 2 years Goildmund has been making their way back into the U.S. market (with a new distributor at the helm)but it will take some time to make delaers forget.

There's a guy on this site (Audiogon)called Satellite to the Stars. He's a Goldmund dealer and a stand up guy so he should tell you the truth about comparisions with other units. He'll also give you a hell of a deal and may let you demo at home. He's located in NY.

Irish 65-

I love Ayre products and have been keeping a close watch on the new Ayre universal (CX5). I have very fond memories of the CX 7 cd player I used to own and it gave the DV 50 a serious run for its money before ultimately falling in an AB test. I still have never heard a cd player do bass better than the Ayre. Ayre is saying this new unit will have cd playback on the level of their current flagship the DX 7. My only concerns are:

1. This is the first SACD player Ayre has ever made.

2. No video so not a true universal (minor complaint)

3. No multi-channel capability for SACD or DVD-A.

My dealer will have one by this weekend and I will be sure to audition it. Interestingly enough, Ayre has an Esoteric X01 in their engineering department which they use for comparision purposes. If they go after a sonic prowess on the level or higher than the X01 then things could get very interesting.

711 has contacted me and we're all set for face off tomorrow. The problem is we're expecting 4-6 inches of snow tomorro and that will pose serious traffic issues for me.

I'keep everyone posted!

Hey guys,

Bad weather in Chicago forced the cancellation of this much anticipated showdown. It will resume this Saturday and A'gon member Jactoy will join us. Always good to have another set of ears!!

711 is under the impression that his modded Denon's will slay any and all contenders including those 3-5 times the price of his units. While I admire his confidence and readily concede the superiority of his unit over the ones we've already demoed, I am not ready to make or accept such a broad conclusion. This contest will continue through next Monday, where we will in that time frame go head to head with the Audio Research CD MK III (also a tube unit),the Esoteric UX-1, a Sony 9000ES modded by Dan Wright, the new Marantz SA 11 and finally the mighty, mighty Esoteric X01. The showdown with the Marantz and X01 probably won't happen until Monday.

Although 711 won't believe it till he hears it, his unit will definitely fall to the X01 in SACD playback. As I reported earlier in this post, the X01 produced the most beautiful and breath taking SACD playback I have ever heard, including 711's modded Denon's which I've already heard in SACD. The only thing in question will be whether or not the X01 will be as good as (or even superior to) the Denon's in redbook.

Please note we will be conducting these tests on some of the finest equipment in the world. Saturday's test will be conducted using Sonus Faber Cremona's and Proac's while amplification will be Krell and Levinson. Monday's test will be on Legacy Whispers with top of the line Marantz separates and Mono blocks. There will be no excuses in regards to associated equipment!

By the way, I've received e-mails from some of you who assumed that since I described the 3910''s sound like a "shower" compared to the X01 as a "high pressure water hose" that I prefered the 3910. Not true! Each player has its own perspective and only a head to head showdown will reveal which player is more musical. And I stress that "musicality" will be the final benchmark. That's what we all are striving for.

Also, I need to stress again that the DV 50 is one hell of a player (I'm listening to it now)and the detail and transparency is phenomenal. However, in the end it is just not as musically satisfying and engaging as the modded Denon's. I'm fortunate because if I never heard the Denon's I would have gone on assuming that nothing in the DV 50's price range can compete. I would have been believing a lie!

If the Denon's clearly illustrate their superiority in head to head battles against all of the above then and and only then will I end this madness and concede the modded Denon's to be one of the best cdp's in the world. At that point I will also put my DV 50 up for sale.

Soon the truth will be known! Buckle up in the saddle, brethren and prepare for one hell of a ride. Final destination is Audio Nirvana! Yeehaaa!!

AVGURU

Mgottlieb,

Your comments about mfg voicing are dead on and accurate. I have heard many players that were overall clearly superior to another player not play a particular song as well as the lesser player. Some songs benefit from a sweeter, softer perspective while other songs benefit from a more analytical and focused perspective.

This actually happened a couple of times when 711 and I were going head to head with the APL and Exemplar 3910. There were songs where the APL sounded more musical but not as accurate or dynamic as the Exemplar.

To be honest, I'm not sure if its even fair to compare a tubed unit to a 100% solid state unit. It seems to me some of the sonic traits of tubes (warmth, airiness) can never be duplicated TO THE SAME DEGREE on solid state gear. It's already a given that the Denon's (both of which incorporate tubes) are going to sound warmer than the X01 which is not a warm player to begin with.

In my listening tests I wil try to take this into account and focus on other performance areas in making my decision.

MGotlieb, since you currently own the X01 how would you describe its sonic traits as it relates to redbook? Overall, do you like the redbook playback of the X01 better than the redbook on the Omega? Please explain in detail.

AVGURU

MGottlieb,

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. Its funny, you mention that the X01 was much more forward in its presentation than the Classe Omega. When I compared the DV 50 against the X01 I found the the DV 50 was much more forward than the X01! So the Omega's presentation must really be set back a foot or two behind the plane of the speakers! Very interesting. Did you like this "further back perspective" of the Omega?

My personal preference is for a less forward soundstage and that's one of the reasons why I prefer the X01 over the DV 50. Sounds like the Omega was a great redbook player also. Wish I had gooten a chance to hear it.

The one thing I'd really like to hear your comments on regarding the X01 in redbook is soundstage layering and the dimensionality of the images. I know you use the X01 more as a transport for redbook (through the Meitner) but perhaps you have enough listening experience with the X01 directly in redbook to comment.

When I talk about soundstage layering I'm refering to how the musicians line up on the soundstage in terms of imaging and depth. For example, with the modded Denon's you can clearly "hear" that the vocalist is up front, the saxophone player is slightly to the right and a foot behind her, the keyboard player is behind her and to the left slightly behind the saxophone player, and the drums are the furthest back. One thing I don't like with the DV 50 is that the brushes on snare drums sysmbols seem to share the front of the stage with the vocalist. In a real life jazz concert the brushes would sound further back.

Also, the modded denon's have a sense of palpability where it seems you can reach out and touch the vocalist. Let me re-phrase that, not only can you reach out and touch her but the voice feels "human" and the emotion is there. When I heard the X01 what I felt I heard was a greater "insight" (i.e tonal inflections, timbre, etc) into the vocal but not necessarily a sense of palpability. You can hear the air and breathiness but only as another sound rather than a sense of emotion.

Regarding the two and three dimenisonality, as you know we live in a three dimensional world where images (and especially sound) have a front, back and side. I never hear more than a one dimensional view from the DV 50 and unforunately I wasn't listening for that quality when I demoed the X01. Dimensionality in some ways goes hand in hand with soundstage layering, but it also speaks to the "full-bodiness" of the images on the soundstage.

Finally, what is it (in terms of sonic characteristics) about DVD-A playback on the 50 that you found so much more appealing than on the UX1? You keep mentioning how great DVD-A sounds on the DV-50. I will have to listen to some more discs. I don't listen to a lot of DVD-A.

In short, in your opinion do you ever feel a sense of palpability, three deminsionality of images, proper soundstage layering and more importantly "emotion" when you listen to the X01 in redbook? These are the areas where (at least upon first listen) the modded Denon's excel ion comparision to the Esoteric. maybe its a function of the tubes, I don't know. Do you ever (or consistently) hear these characteristics when you listen to your turntable?

MGottlieb, sorry for the long question but it will be my last one to you as soon we will be able to hear the X01 again (directly against the denon's). I wanted to get your impressions because you have one hell of a set-up in terms of both analog and digital. More importantly, as a regular listener to "live" classical music at Carnegie hall you are much more in touch with how music "should sound" from different seating perspectives than any of us are!

AVGURU

Pscialli,

The Marantz SA 11 was smoked on redbook by both the DV 50 and the X01. Wasn't even close. On SACD, it was 80% of the DV 50 and maybe 40% of the X01. It only took 1 minute to hear the differences and after about 5 minutes we cut off the SA 11. And that was through the Marantz's balanced outputs (yes, the SA 11 has balanced outputs).

The Esoteric players are in another league. I previously owned several Marantz units (DV 12S1, SA 12S1 and the DV 8400) and I know the Marantz "house sound" very well. All of their players are very warm, not very detailed, deep but soft bass, average dynamics, decent size soundstage with a laid back presentation (not forward). All of these characteristics are the exact opposite of the Esoteric pieces, which are extremely detailed with loads of dynamics, forward presentation and deep, powewful and detailed bass.

Had we compared the Marantz against other players in its s class I believe it would have done very well. But not against the Esoterics.

Just like the DV 8400 was no competition for the SA 14 (vers. 1 & 2), I'm sure the new DV 9500 is no competition for the SA 11. The SA 14 are SA 11 are Marantz's attempt to provide their very best audio performance in a cd player. And both signficantly improve on the performance of the 8400 and 9500. I don't need to hear the 9500 to know the SA 11 is a big improvement.

Regarding the Musical Fidelity buffer stage, when you get to cd playback on this level there is very little a $399 tube output can do for you. I use to own the MF Tri-Vista 21 dac combined with the Sony XA 777ES. It was a very good dac/ transport combination but not on the level of the DV 50. I owned both at the same time and faced them off on several occassions). So if the Tri-Vista 21 can't equal or outperfrom the DV 50 there's no way their output buffer stage can.

However, I believe it would work well on a cheaper mid-fi product like the Denon 2900 or something like that.

By the way, I have to add that the Marantz SA 11 is one beautiful looking cd player. I even like the gold color as its understated and not over done.

Hope that helps!

AVGURU

Daltonlanny,

SACD is first, CD 2nd (but a very well recorded cd can give SACD playback on the DV 50 a run for its money, DVD Audio 3rd and DVD-Video last.

However, MGotlieb may disagree with me as he feels the DVD-Audio playback on the DV 50 is exceptional.

AVGURU

Reb,

That's your opinion...and it goes against the grain of 95% of the reviewers and the numerous awards that the DV 50 has received. Obviously, you're the lone person out there whose smarter than everyone else and knows audio better than than anyone.

If you love your inverted polarity SA 11 that's fine. The SA 11 is only "slighty better" than the SA 14 IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE DV 50 IN REDBOOK PERFORMANCE..AND IN SACD ITS CLOSER BUT STILL NOT EQUAL.

Anytime you're prepared to do what I have done here..get a much of people whih different units and go head to head to see which is better and then bring us results that's fine. From the begginning you've been down on the DV 50 and that's fine.

Why don't you take your inverted polarity SA 11 and go head to head with other players its equal or better? And by the way, there is nothing neutral or tranparent about the SA 11 or any Marantz cd player that has ever been made. Their signatureound has always been warm and colored. If that's more analog to you then fine. But analog doesn't bring warmth at the expense of detail and transparency. It's obvious that's the sound you like because the Dv 50 is the exact opposite of that. So you never should have bought a DV 50 in the first place!

Next you're going to tell me the DV 9500 is as good as the DV 50 to, right?

OK!!

AVGURU

Alex,

Denon uses their famed ALU processing (an arithmetic logarithm) to "interpolate" a word length of 24 bits from a standard 16 bit redbook cd. They've been using this technology for the last 10 years in everything from their recievers to their dvd players to their cd players.

This is a proprietary process that Denon has developed. Other more "hi-fi" companies such as Ayre, Cary, Arcam etc accomplish the same feat through a different process that I'm not technical enough to explain. But the results speak for themselves and I don't think most people reading this post feel that Denon's sound is anywhere close to the performance levels of the companies mentioned above. And to be honest, there are great 1 bit cd players on the market today that sound incredibly good. So I'm not even sure if interpolating data to a larger bit stream is critical to obtaining great sound.

Regarding upsampling (atually there's no such thing and it should be referred to as oversampling)your comment "there's no theoretical or practical advantadge to upsampling the cd" is not true. While Denon may have come to this decision after reviewing the overall design and performance criteria of their units, there are many other companies (including Marantz which is now owned by Denon) that are very high on the concept and use it with regularity. Ayre, Arcam, Cary, Musical Fidelity, Esoteric, etc are but a few of the companies that routinely use oversampling in their cd players and with GREAT RESULTS! All of the above companies are much more highly respected than Denon when it comes to their engineering design and "know how".

I agree that oversampling is not always necessary to achieve good sounding cd playback. But I just want to make it clear to everyone reading your comments that was a decision Denon made and reasons could be varied...anywhere from cost concerns to the design of their unit not being compatible with oversampling. You will note that on Esoterics's UX1 player they decided not provide all of the oversampling options available on the DV 50. One of the primary reasons for this was the design of their transport made it unnecessary to do so.

Regarding the DV-50's transport being the same as the Pioneers, please do not understate the importance/impact of adding the clamping mechanism...which reduces jitter and allows the laser mechanism to track the disc in a more linear and accurate fashion. In my mind this modification alone puts the Esoteric transport on a higher level above the Pioneer. Furthermore, the laser tracking mechansim and the laser wavelengths (which are adjustable) help by determining how far the player is capable of digging in to the "cd pits" and obtaining the recorded information.

As you know, many laser tracking mechanisms travel on a thin wire that in itself is subject to vibration. The better companies such as Esoteric do not use this method..or they use a better version. In my mind the outer housing,laser mechansim, etc are all part of the transport and in this regard the Esoteric does have a better transport than the Denon. You are free to disagree as I'm sure you will.

Regarding comparing the DSP (Digital Surround processing)chips in both units that really doesn't concern me as I'm much more interested in analog audio performance (op amps, DAC's and their associated filtering processes) than I am with digital processing..most of which is associated with video and digital processing speed. Is the Denon the better DVD player? Probably.

Do I care? NO!

Is HDCD a nice feature to have? Maybe to some but not to me since the in my listening tests the use of the three oversampling filters can bring a level of resolution to cd's that's better than HDCD.

Alex, 711 has given me several extended listening auditions of your units and I think they sound incredible..much better than the DV 50 in terms of musicality. And if you are successful in bringing the DV 50 to a level of performance on par with your APL 3910 I will gladly be one of your next customers requesting an upgrade. But I just had to respond to your comments and imho the build quality, transport and overall engineering found in the DV 50 is on a much higher level than the 3910. To be able to use the lesser Denon platform and take it to a level of performance that surpasses the DV 50 is high praise indeed and a testament to your modding skills!

Keep up the good work!

AVGURU

Jactoy,

Thanks for adding needed detail about the dealers set-up. Regarding the Thor mono's, remember we disconnected those and did the majority of our listening with the Hovland Amp. Is that correct? Also, how much did the Thor pre-amp cost? I don't remember. Finally, sorry about the spelling of the cables/interconnects.

You are correct that they had many room treatments (echo busters, bass traps and others). So you can say the listening tests were were under almost ideal room treatment conditions.

Jactoy, please feel free to add any comments you may have regarding the listening tests. People on this forum are probably tired of just hearing my comments/observations!

AVGURU

Reb 1208,

Thanks for the info. I didn't know about the three filters or the noise shaper. The dealer should have told me about that. Since the DV 50 has similar filters which I do change on a regular basis (depending on the type of music played) I understand the importance of using these correctly. The Marantz may be one of those machines that needs to be taken home for a demo to properly evaluate its performance. Ideally, all equipment should be taken home if possible but some units need it more than others to make a proper assessment.

When I go back to the dealer this week I will give it a more detailed listen, double check the polarity issue and play with the filters.

Regarding the DV 50, I've never experienced the sound changes you describe after the unit stays on for a considerable length of time. When my dealer sold me the DV 50 he did tell me from his own persnonal experience (and Tac's recommendation) is that the DV 50 be given 200 hours of break-in time in EACH FORMAT! I don't know if you were able to do that.

Anyway, I'm just glad we're talking civilly again as I consider you a valuable assest towards my search for digital nirvana audio and I value your input. If you feel the Marantz equals your turn table rig in terms of openess on the top end then that says alot. Are you talking in SACD or CD playback? Also, how do you like the Marantz in SACD? Is the Marantz still breaking in or are you past the break-in period?

Please keep me and this forum posted regarding your findings and successes!

AVGURU

Tbab,

I have no poblem doing another audition at your place in Elgin. The only Dali dealer in the Chicago area is in Elgin (I forget the name of the audio store). I've been dying to hear some Dali speakers. They consistently receive killer reviews!

Before I come I'd like to know the components in your system (speakers, amps, etc) so I can prepare myself accordingly.

AVGURU

1Markr,

I thought I did lay out both the similarities and differences in my lenghty shoot-out results. If there is something specifically you are looking for or I missed please e-mail me with your phone number and we can discuss by phone.

Regarding the Audio Aero, I believe 711 has had that unit in his sytem for comparision purposes and both the the Exemplar and APL modified 3910 were better. Which is a really strong statement considering the AA Capitole is supposed to be one of the best standalone players (in terms of musicality)on the market.

I wish everyone could hear the APL & Exemplar Exemplar Denon's as well as the Modwright Sony's because its the musicality that's just amazing. A lot of us on Audiogon have very nice high end cd players and systems which reveal loads of detail, transparency, soundstage, imaging, etc but none of that means ANYTHING until you hear the modded Sony and APL play music!

Before I started this forum (I'm embarrassed to say this) I didn't really understand what 2 two and three dimensional music was. Terms like holographic I just took for granted...thinking since I had very high end the equipment the sound I was hearing must be holographic.

Now that I've really heard it I can never go back to music without it!

AVGURU

Garymd,

711's sytem sounds very good. I had never heard or seen Cornwalls before (but I've seen them discussed favorably on Audiogon) and therefore I was pleasantly surpised by the sound. I must tell you however that 711 has had these speakers modded to the tune of about $1,200 so they are not OEM anymore.

My impressions: Dynamic as hell, easy to drive, play loud and the hoarn loaded tweeter doesn't miss any frequencies including those heard by dogs! Also very good bass response and mid-range but the tweeters and dynamics are definitely the strong points. The Center fill imaging was also very impressive. They are definitely full sounding even though they are not shaped like a traditional floor-stander (they are wide like a rectange but maybe only 25 inches tall. Some of the bass drum and low end orchestral sounds we were getting were phenomenal. Mfg's love to exaggerate the low end response of their speakers but I would say these can get down to a realistic 30 HZ at a reasonable volume before starting to roll off.

Regarding the VRD tubed power amps, I had never heard those either. But what was amazing to me was even though we were using a tubed cd player and tube amps the sound was never overyly warm or syrupy, there was plenty of dynamics and the system cranked out some very high db's without a hiccup or any sense of strain. Plus transparency was very good, which I believe to be a function of both the cd player and the amp.

Mid-range clarity was also a strong point and that is where I think they really excelled. I felt there were times where the bass control could have been a little tighter. It was good but didn't put a "chokehold" (in terms of control) on the bass like some of the Krell or Levension amps I've heard.

711 does not have an ideal room configuration which makes the sound we heard even more amazing. I'm sure 711 can fill you in on better details than I.

AVGURU

Alex,

Thanks for your comments. I am not going to get into a long theoretical and technical disertation with you on the merits of oversampling vs. "resampling", nor am I going to debate who makes the best Analog DSP Chip, nor am I going to debate the superiority of who has the better transport.

But I will say this:

Oversampling or re-sampling is widely used by many consumer electronics companies involved in musical equipment manufacturing and musical reproduction. Keyboard companies like Yamaha, Korg and Roland use oversampling to produce better and more realistic piano, drum and orchestral sounds on their keyboards. Audio companies like Ayre, Cary, Esoteric, Arcam use oversampling to produce better sounding, higher fidelity equipment audio equipment.

True, whether this is better or not is subjective based based on the preferences of the listener. But to my ears and millions of other consumers who are buying these products, resampling offers major improvements that are audibly discernable and desirable. To my ears, oversampling (when done correctly) is a pleasant enhancement that brings about a sense of higher fidelity and a more realistic sound. I agree with you that it does not (using your words) "improve the sound of the cd" which I think is more aptly put as "improve the music recorded on the cd" but it DOES offer the potential of making what's already there much more pleasureable, richer in tonal texuture and increasing the detail presented. Oversampling doesn't always sound better but I find I prefer it much more than I don't prefer it.

It just makes sense that the more you take an original waveform and sample it "over and over again" you increase the resolution, detail and fullness of the original waveform. In the case of the high rez formats like SACD and DVD-A, they theoretically have the ability to actually reach these higher sampling rates/frequency. So audio mfg's have started incorporating DAC's that can interpolate a 16 bit word length to 24 bit and then re-sample it 192,000 times per second in an attempt to re-create these higher frequency rates that are an inherent part of these formats.

Anytime you re-sample a waveform this many times (and that fast) there will be errors in the reproduction of the 0's and 1's that represent the digital information. This is commonly known as jitter...or better yet timing jitter errors. And you are right, some of that information CAN BE LOST in the re-sample process.

However, the trick to resampling is in the post filtering process that attempts to re-create the lost information. On the really high end units this filtering process is quite sophisticated, occurs in mulitple stages, substantially reducing and virtually eliminating these errors to the point where they have little effect on the music we hear.

Regarding the Analog DSP, whether or not one chip is better (whatever that means) is really irrevelant. The selection of a particular chip by a manufacturer is usually determined by need, functionality and design criteria rather than what's the best out there. If a particular chip can do DSD conversion for SACD and offer the best bass management it may be construed as being the best chip. But if the mfg wants to convert the DSD stream to PCM (or better yet if the player doesn't offer SACD)or if the mfg decides not to offer extensive bass management features, then using the best most expensive chip is not important and does not add any improvements to the functionality of his unit.

At the price point of the DV 50 I'm sure the engineers could have "afforded" to incorporate the Analog Devices chip of the 2900. And I hope you're not trying to suggest that Denon uses better quality parts for their machine vs. the Esoteric because THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT TRUE. DENON IS A MARKETING COMPANY STRICTLY THINKING ABOUT MOVING LARGE NUMBERS OF WIDGETS, MAINTAINING OR INCREASING THEIR MARKET SHARE AND MAKING THE HIGHEST PROFIT POSSIBLE. IF THERE'S ANY COMPANY OUT THERE THAT DOES "REALLY GOOD MARKETING" AS YOU PUT IT IT IS DENON. My guess is that Esoteric did not use the chip because there was no performance advantage in using it.

Yes, I was referring to the top lens of the laser transport when I was talking about the thin wires. Thank you for your correction as I was writing very fast. However, you will find when you receive the DV 50 that it does not use the thin wire in the same configuration as 99% of the other units on the market. I stand by my original comments. And I am confused as to how you know this for a fact when you've never modded a DV 50 before? Mfg's routinely use Pioneer and Philips transports and modify them for their own use.

Anyway, I've enjoyed our dialogue on the issues above and I graciously "bow out"asI don't want to turn this thread into something other than what it was meant. I am anxious to see what you can do with the DV 50 in terms of modifications. When do you think you will have an idea of what improvements (if any) you can add? If I can make a suggestion, please look at the 5.1 channel analog outs as a start. The rca's are of average quality and the dac's are nowhere near the same quality of the 2 channel dac's.
The improvements alone would substantially increase the multi-channel performance of this unit.

AVGURU

Steve,

I beg to differ that I don't understand "the technical aspects of digital audio". I am very confident in what I do know. And as I told Alex I'm not going to engage in any more technical chatter as it takes this thread away from its intended purpose. Alex has offered to submit to me additional information and pictures to justify his position.
We have ended our differences and I look forward to hearing his conclusions on whether or not he can use the DV 50 as a platform for one of his re-designs.

I'll just keep my "wild tales" to myself. Please make sure you do the same as I've never heard from you before nor has your name appeared on this thread previous to this. Your comments are unsolicited and very unnecessary at this point. If you are not bringing anything positive or worthwhile to the table don't bring anything at all!

AVGURU

irishdog,

When is the McIntosh universal scheduled to be released? Also, do you know what price point they're targeting? Will it include video?

AVGURU

Henryhk,

I have heard extremely positive and great things about the Meitner combo (dac and transport). I have no doubt it is some of the finest digital gear in the world and totally crushes the DV 50. I've heard the SACD playback in particular is just amazing.

You are right that I don't want to go to a dac/tranport combo anymore. I prefer a one box solution. At this point 711 and I are arranging to obtain for demo purposes an X01. We will then do another demo going head to head with the X01 vs. the APL 3910...in addition to the new APL 3910 with Alex's modifed clock. We will probably add the modwright Sony to the mix also.

At that point I will be ready to make my buying decision based on the results of that shoot-out. From everything I've read from the reviews and people's comments the X01's performance is very close (at least 90%) to that of the Meitner gear. So, if the APL or Modwright gear is significantly better (by better I mean more musical)than the X01 I would expect that its also better than the Meitner gear. That may be a flawed "assumption" but in my mind its a logical conclusion. Plus, we are having a very difficult time finding a dealer who has a demo unit that they would allow us to take home for a "demo".

I suspect that I'm going to have a very hard time finding any solid state gear (Meitner, Esoteric or otherwise) that matches the musicality of tubed gear like the Exemplar and APL 3910's or the modwright Sony. There may be intrinsic qualities of tubes that add a touch of magic and warmth that no solid state equipment can match. That's what I hope to find out by comparing the two units.

I want the Esoteric equipment to win as I love everything about the technology, tranpsort and build quality behind it. Plus I can get a great deal on the price.

But in my "heart of hearts" I already know neither the Meitner nor the Esoteric is going to be as musical as the Modded players. It's hard to explain but once you hear three dimensional music with real imagages you can touch and feel and a soundstage that is palpable and lifelike..its awfully hard to accept anything less! Alec, John and Dan are doing some amzaing things with these modded units.

AVGURU

Bearman3,

I'd be interested in knowing what specific "improvements" you heard in the Tucker 2900 vs. the DV 50? In what areas did you think the modded 2900 was stronger? Where was it weaker (if any areas)?

Just curious to know if your hearing observations are similar to what we heard when comparing the 3910 to the DV 50. By the way, do you own the DV 50? Where did you do your listening comparision?

AVGURU

Bearman3,

Thanks for your response. My listening session with the 3910 was similar to yours with the 2900...only the sonic differences were of a greater magnitude. I really just wanted to compare notes and make sure what I am hearing is what others (outside of us crazy Chicago guys) are also hearing.

AVGURU

Due to a hectic work schedule and family committments I couldn't keep up my end of the deal to pick up the X01 on behalf of 711 Smillin. Sorry guys as 711 went though all the time and trouble to purchase the unit. We were to have a long and glorious shoot-out this evening between the APL, Exemplar and X01. Would have been better than 4th of July fireworks!

Tonight was the best night for all involved since 711 has a host of business committments that will keep him busy all of next week. Same with me.

We will have to reschedule this grand event for another day...but please be assured it will happen! The quest for the best and most musical digital cdp must (and will) go on!

AVGURU

Fellow Audiophiles:

I am looking to wrap up my search for the ultimate, most musical cdp or universal in the next three weeks. As such, I left work early today and had a glorious four hour listening session with our beloved Esoteric X01. This was my second session with the X01 (the first one was 1 hour) and I just needed to verify in my mind what I thought I previously heard. I also took a second long listen to the Marantz SA 11 as I promised Reb 1208 I would. I'll report on that unit in a separate thread. First, a list of the music played:

Jacintha- Autumn Leaves
Norah Jones-Come go away with me (SACD)
Mighty Sam Mclain- Give it up to Love (JVC XRCD)
Ray Charles- Genius Loves Company- Concord Jazz SACD
Ana Caram- Blue Bossa- Chesky SACD
Diana Schuur- Music Is My Life-Atlantic HDCD
Marilyn Scott-NightCap- Prana Records
Isaac Hayes -Hot Buttered Soul-MFSL Gold Recording SACD
Art of the Ballad- Maple Shade Records
Madeline Peyroux- Careless Love-Rounder Records
Cassandra Wilson- Traveling Miles-Blue Note
Diana Krall- The Girl in the Other Room-Verve-SACD

The Equipment:

Speakers-Legacy Whispers
Pre-amp- Marantz 7SA ( $6,000)
Amps: 300 Watt Marantz 9SA ($7,500 each)
Esoteric X01
Black Diamond isolation Trey (not platform)
Top Gun Power Cord
Audioquest Sky and Harmonic Truth (switched back and forth)
No power conditioning

As you can see, the music selection was very extensive and varied. I have to give special mention to Ray Charles, Art of the Ballad, Marilyn Scott and Isaac Hayes and Jancintha. Rahy Charles SCAD is one of the most airiest, spacious and well recorded SACD's I've ever heard. Jacintha's voice is absolutely heavenly.

Marilyn Scott is a real stunner and is somewhat under the radar. I found it at Borders hidden behind bigger names. An unbelievable recording! Anybody whose heard a Maple Shade Recording knows they go for a very raw, live sound with well placed mikes and very little effects other than ambiance from the recording venue. This was also a stunner and sounded better than SACD..so real I could reach out and touch it.

But the best of all was (I'm still surprised) the Issac Hayes Hot buttered Soul. Only four songs on the whole album...Walk on By, By the Time I get to Phoenix, etc... This sounded just like I was at the studio when it was recorded. The most vinyl sounding SACD I have ever heard with unbelievable attack on Strings and horns and the guitar solo's burned right through the mix like I was there live! Definitely recommended. The worst of the above was Diana Krall. I love her music..and this album...but there is nothing special about the SACD version of this cd. It only sounds marginally better than the redbook version.

Now, the review:

The X01 in redbook is simply unbelievable! The soundstage is tight and extremely well focused. Unlike the DV 50 where the soundstage is a bit too forward, the bass is a little heavy handed and the dynamics are slightly over the top (See Reb 1208, we do agree on a few things!) they have reined in the X01 to compensate for those weaknesses. The sound is more laid back and noticeably less forward, the bass is even handed and doesn't over take the rest of the soundstage and the dynamics are not over done. The sound is so, so smooth and put together...nothing ever gets out of its place.

When there is a trio of horns playing in harmony at the same time you can easily pick out the timbre of each horn.
In other words, it plays as one piece but you can pick out which horn is which...unlike other cdp's I've heard where it sounds like one mass of horns jumbled together. Strings and synthethic strings well up from a backdrop of pure blackness and just swoosh into the soundstage, never overtaking the front images (unless recorded that way) but laying a foundation of warmth and texture that is just totally eveloping and absorbing.

The imaging is spot on and special mention goes to the spacing. Again, each instrument has room on the soundstage without crowding the other out. The soundstage is very wide. Also, if the recording venue has ambiance or reverb this player will pick it up beautifully. The Mapleshade recording was a good example of that.

Finally (And I want to make sure everybody gets this) the SACD playback of this unit is super, super phenomenal..the best I've ever heard. Air, huge soundstage, analog sounding on the better recorded SACD's, soundstage depth and even better timbre fecognition (you can hear the skin on the drums, on piano you can hear the hammer of the keys inside the piano..that's also true for some redbook cd's that had piano solo's). It just sounds so real!!

Now, for the weaknesses:

This unit does not sound analog so those looking for an analog sound need not apply. It sounds like a well aged, fine digital wine. Very smooth, very sophisticated but still digital. Sometimes cymbals and brushes have an extra sheen or sparkle...but what's amazing is that if you listen closely you can hear the separation of the strands on the brush as each one opens up and swipes across the symbol. Some players (and many audiophiles like this) tend to push this type of detail back further in the soundstage or mask the sound behind other instruments so it doesn't draw attention to itself. Not the X01. I'm not even sure if I would call it a "sheen" but moreso drawing out extra detail.

The bass is very tight but but still could be better defined. I've yet to hear any cd player do bass better than the Ayre CX-7. But unlike the DV 50 the slam is in proportion to the detail. The bass definitely goes deep.

One thing I should mention is that the X01 is not as airy or open as some might like. Because it brings out so much detail it tends to fill the soundstage more than other units. The old adage "less is more" definitely applies here. Other players that aren't as detailed "seem" to have a more open and airy presentation because quite simply they don't have the resolution of the X01. These players could also give one the impression that the background is blacker and the noise floor is quieter. You'd be surprised at how much is going on in a song even during a quiet interlude. The X01 does not add air to these type of passages. Some audiophiles may not like this. Where the X01 somewhat makes up for this is in its smoothness and a natural ambiance it exudes.

Finally, in my opinion the X01 is very musical..but in my listening session only sometimes made the speakers disappear (with eyes closed) and is still primarily one dimensional instead of producing two and threee dimensional images like the Exemplar, APL and Modwright Sony. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of soundstage depth, width and and height but rarely that sense of being there with living, breathing images.

I'm convinced now after listening to the APL, Exemplar and Modwright Sony that these qualities are due to the tubes. The X01 and Meitner gear may be the best digital has to offer but it just can't give you the live feeling the way tubes can.

From my recent recollection and notes from hearing the modded cdp's here are my comparisions (I have yet to do a head to head between the modded units and the X01):

X01 vs Exemplar 3910

The X01 is more detailed, smoother and even handed (less subject to dynamic swings). Imaging is better and the soundstage is tighter.

The Exemplar puts more air around the instruments (therefore sounds more open, spacing is about equal and throws two and three dimensional images on a regular baasis. But the Exemplar sometimes give an unnatural timbre to instruments and instruments can sound thin at times (occassionally, not often). I'm talking piano's and guitars.

Verdict: I like the X01 but I could easily see where others could choose the Exemplar.

X01 vs. APL

Both units are equally detailed, vocals are more upfront and life-like on the APL, tonally richer than the X01, more air, spacing is about even, APL is more dynamic. X01 is smoother, more accurate, more inner-detail, APL bass is better and is overall more dimensional and more musical.
APL has that you are there quality.

Verdict: APL is the more musical player. I could however see someone choosing the X01 as its also very musical but in a different way, just not quite as satisfying as the APL.

X01 vs. Sony Modwright (or now Denon Modwright)

The Modwright player is flat out the most musically satisfying player I have ever heard. Tonally rich, harmonics out the ying-yang, spacing is incredible...each instrument has its space and the soundstage is never crowded. (This asset is in my opinion what really sets this player apart) bass is detailed yet tonally rich with slam, instrument timbre's seem to be very accurate (i.e piano sounds like piano), vocals ar real and life-like. Great imaging!

I sometimes wonder if the Modwright is adding harmonmic textures to music that are not really there in the recording studio because I've never heard anything so harmonically and tonally rich in my life. So full, never thin. Yet due to the timbral accuracy (tenor sax sounds like tenor, alto sounds like alto, easy to differentiate different pionos i.e Yamaha vs. Bosendofer, etc) I can't say the sound is not accurate.

Verdict: Betters the X01 in almost every cagtegory. Extremely musical. I wish I could afford both..but given only one I'd go with the Sony.

Just wanted to share this with everyone. If you read my first review (in this same thread) of the X01 nothing really changed. I now feel more comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of this unit.

When you include the price differences between the X01 and the modded units the mod's are very hard to pass up!

Next Up: I'm in search of Meitner gear to audition

AVGURU

DBLD,

Continue to enjoy your DV 50S! It is a truly great player. And now with the new and improved video dac the video is on par with the high end Arcams (which I still believe are the best dvd players on the market sans the Ayre DX-7). Additonally, if you go to the earlier part of this thread you will see a list of all the superb cdp's it beat in a head to head comparision.

Keep in mind that I've only auditioned the modded players in redbood and SACD, not DVD-A or DVD-Video. I'm sure they're also good in those formats but the DV-50 is morethan likely at least as good. I personally feel the video on the DV 50S is as good as a stock 3910 (which by the way has superb video) because the 50 has better power supplies.

Member MGottlieb will agree with me that the DV 50 is superb in DVD-A. And in multi-channel SACD the Esoteric may sound better than the modded denon's. Why? Because the tube output of the Denon's only applies to the front two channels, not the surrounds. You can get the other channels modded (improved op amps/rca's upgraded, etc) but they aren't connected to the tube outputs. Again, I can't say for sure because I haven't auditioned the Modded units in mulit-channel. But I'm sure the DV 50 is at least competitive in multi-channel.

But whatever you do please don't audition the Esoteric X01 because as good as your 50 is its not even close to the X01. Yes, the price is twice the DV 50 but the X01's performance is 3 times that of the DV 50. That (as unbelievable as it sounds) makes it a good value! And as a transport the UX1 is probably a keeper for the next 10 years.

Enjoy the music!

AVGURU

Larryi,

Thanks for the referral. I think I will look into the Audionote equipment as I've never heard it but have heard good things about it. Do you have a website address where I can start my journey and find a local dealer?

AVGURU

Sinosin,

Good to see you join the thread again! Haven't heard from you for awhile. Having spoken to you by phone, knowing your set-up and respecting your audiophile knowledge, please do tell us your thoughts on what the X01 needs to take me to that "magical level" of the modded tube players? Are you thinking a tubed pre-amp?

If anyone reading this thread hasn't figured it out yet, combining the accuracy, coherency and detail of the X01 with the 3 dimensional and totally musical soundstage of the modded units would be an unbeatable combination. Although I'd have to steal from the the kids college funds it'd be worth it. I'd probably listen to music 18 hours a day!

Sinosin, please give us your thoughts!

AVGURU

MGottlieb,

Jactoy's last point is quite interesting and one I never thought to ask you myself. As the one person on this thread who has the best digital equipment on the market today...X01 as a transport and for SACD's, Meitner's top of the line DAC, DV 50 for DVD-A only and a serious turntable rig, obviously you have invested a lot of money and time choosing your equipment.

What are your thoughts on our findings that the modded players are not only competitive but in some cases can even exceed the performance of your gear? Have you listened to any of these modded players (or others) that we've demoed? Are you of the belief that they can in fact outperform your gear? Or is buying one of these units as a replacement for your digital separates not a viable option? If not, please explain why?

What aspects of your digital set-up (what sonic characteristics) are you so enamored with that you couldn't possibly think of replacng it with the modded units?

Sorry, MGottlieb but you know I have to ask you the tough questions. You basically have a set-up that offers the best of the digital world. You are the resident digital guru!

AVGURU

Aldavis,

Spoke to Teac in California this morning. The two units you mentioned will not be introduced in the U.S. for at least two years. Strictly made for the Japanese and European market. Too bad as the price points were very attractive.

I believe pictures/information on those units can be seen at www.teac.co.jp.

AVGURU

The Quest for the Best Continues!

You all will be happy to know that my local Esoteric dealer has informed me he SHOULD HAVE the UX1 in house by tomorrow evening. This is a demo unit that has already made the review rounds to several well known av mag's. As such, the unit will be well broken in. My dealer has decided to buy it as his floor demo.

Of course, yours truly will be there Saturday morning for a listen. Unlike 711, I like hearing a player in a multitiude of systems (or at least another one besides my own) so I can make sure the sonic characteristics I'm hearing are not biased or system dependent. However, I definitely agree with 711 that when it comes time to making a purchase I would never buy before auditioning in my own system.

I have spoken to Jactoy (he being the lucky owner of the glorious Wright modded Sony) and he has agreed to join me if time permits. Don't know if we will be able to directly AB his unit against the UX1 on Saturday, but if not we will do it on Wednesday when he and I both have plenty of free time to do so.

There are couple of other people in the Chicago area who are following this thread but are not really actively participating. (Mr. Northbrook, Mr. Elgin where are you)? Don't be shy...please do join us for a spot of Earl Grey tea, scones and a fantastic listening sesssion!

Be on the look-out for my shoot-out sometime next week!

AVGURU

Mgottlieb,

Thanks for your response. It was very thorough. Sorry you feel the thread is getting old. The feedback I'm getting is that its one of the best threads going with more and more people hopping on and adding their comments! Can't tell you how many phone calls I and other members have received and exchanged because of this thread.

Please don't take my remark "digital guru" seriously. I was just having fun! I only said it because it seems you have owned and currently own some of the best digital gear of anyone on the thread. When I say "best" I'm speaking in relative terms of price and the fact your gear is generally considered to be the best on the market today. I wanted to hear your opinion because you've owned some of the best gear so you have first hand knowledge of its performance.

Stay with us, MGottlieb. We need your open minded and unbiased viewpoint...as well as your constant reminders that no one really knows what sounds best or what a cd "should sound like".

AVGURU

Jactoy,

Great news! I also received an e-mail from Brian and he will join us tomorrow morning for our UX1 listening session.

AVGURU

Mgottlieb,

I forgot to ask you what you thought of the multi-channel performance of the X01 (in SACD) vs the two channel SACD performance? My experience on the DV 50 with SACD is that the multi-channel performance was far behind that of the two channel.

It seems to have nothing to do with the engineering of the disc or the surround mix because when I flipped back and forth between the two on the fly the 2 channel just always sounded better. I'm sure part of the reason for this is the manual says the dac's on the front two channels are superior to those connected to the 5.1 rca's.

Do you find the same type of disparity on the X01? I am hoping they significantly improved the mulit-channel performance over the DV-50? Regarding DVD-A, did you ever pinpoint why you felt DVD-A on the UX1 (the new universal) sounded less spectacular than the DV-50?

AVGURU

MGottlieb,

Thnaks. When I listen to the UX1 tomorrow I will bring a couple of DVD-A discs to see if its performance is on par with my DV 50.

By the way, there's supposed to be a big increase in video performance(effects both componentand DVI outputs)between the 50 and 50S. Do you use 50 for video as well as DVD-A? If so, did you consider getting your unit upgraded by Teac?

AVGURU

To All:

The information that Alex revealed about the master clock is exactly the type of information audiophiles need to know and more importantly understand. We (as audiophiles) don't stand a chance against these marketing behemoth's as they are pro's at disimenating technical information that at first glance look seems extremely impressive but later we find has very little impact on the actual performance.

We've seen this stuff over the years. I remember in the 70's when THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) was the big buzzword and everyone obsessed over what the percentage was for their unit. Then power delivery (# of watts per channel for amplifiers) was big with many people believing more Watts meant more power. We later came to find out the amperage (current)is more important than Watts. Also, mfg's can play game with wattage ratings similar to those played with THD.

Then when Sony (and now Esoteric) came out with these massive, over built transports (Sony's SCD-1 and now Esoteric's X01/UX1) we all get giddy and happy again because they'd like us to believe that their transport's are unique and sets a new level of performance that other companies can't reach.

Now power conditioners are the big thing and everybody wants a Richard Grey, PS Audio, etc.

Guys, its time to wake up, sift through the marketing bs and become a better, more informed audiophile who really knows his stuff. In my quest to find Digital Audio Nirvana I have also found it necessary to learn the electronics/technical side so I can determine what's really important. I've been reading books and talking to audio engineers who know the "real deal". Let me share my findings with you:

We found out years ago that THD is easy to manipulate through the use of negative loop feedback. Normally THD figures are given at a fixed frequency (say 2K as an example). By applying negative feedback at a fixed frequency you can lower the output impedance, raise the frquency response and at the same time lower the THD.

However, in real "life" we don't listen to music at fixed frequencies. The frequency range is quite variable. That's why Intermodulation Harmonic Distortion is much more important figure to know. Unfortunately, there is no real reliable way to measure that. So my point is THD is not a reliable figure to meausre performance.

The quality of the internal clock on a cd player is extremely important. The clock synchronizes the timing between the DAC and the transport. The more accurate the clock the more accurately the laser pick-up can read the disc at the required 44.1K frequency and the more accurately the DAC can interpet the digital information (1's and 0's)and complete the digital to analog conversion.

Although the mechanical coupling and physical build quality of the transport is important (hence the fame of TEAC's VRDS), the accuracy of the clock and the way in which it sychronizes the DAC and laser pick up is more MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. That has a direct effect on "timing jitter" in terms of delay in reading information. Though these delays are measured in pico seconds they do have a cumulative effect on the flow and musicality of the information you hear.

Power supplies are also extremely important. Mfg's love to throw around the term "we use a torroidal transformer" in our units. What's really important in a power supply is whether its a "switch mode" or "true linear power supply". A linear power supply is much more desirious and will improve the performance of the unit immensely. It also has the ability to provide "reserve power" when your system or the music demands it better than switch mode power supplies. Finally, switch modes power supplies are much noisier than linear power supplies.

Furthermore, its even better to have a power supply that's not only linear but also fully balanced. A fully balanced power supply will truncate (knock off) the asymetric part of the sine wave that produces noise from the power line. In truth, if you have high quality components (amps, cdp, pre-amps) that are fully balanced and utlize the better power supplies and transformers YOU DO NOT NEED external power conditioners. You do need surge protection. And better outlets (PS Audio/Hubbell) are helpful.

This whole industry of power conditioners came about because many mfg's (in an effort to save money and increase their profits) stop using high quality power supplies and transformers..especially on their lower end units. They've all sold us on the idea that the electricy coming off of your neighborhood transformer is dirty and noisy and can hurt the performance of your system. That is true...but the beauty of fully balanced power supplies with high quality transformers is they internally clean up the AC BEFORE it hits the internal circuitry of your unit and has a chance to degrade the audio performance. Keep in mind I'm strictly talking audio here. I don't know enough about the video side.

The point I'm trying to make here is don't ever take to much stock in the technical merits the mfg's advertise to you upfront. Worry more about what they're NOT TELLING YOU. Take time to learn about the components and parts in a cdp that are truly crucial and important and why. Guys like Alex and some of these other modders..they do know.

The sad truth is some of these higher quality parts are not even that expensive. Alex can buy a really high quality dac for $15. Or a high quality clock for $30. Which makes it even more disgusting and unacceptable as to how these mfg's can charge $3,000-$15,000 for a cdp and still not include the very highest quality parts available in the market. These modders can give you better units at much lower prices.

I'm not saying don't buy from a mfg. I still like many of the products on the market. What I am saying is do your research and find out what you're "really getting" in terms of quality of the components that really matter. The better companies will answer your questions and tell you the quality of parts used. If they can't tell you maybe you should have a modder check it within the return time frame to make sure its a quality piece. But whatever unit I by to replace my DV 50 you can be sure I'm going to be well informed in regards to exactly what did I buy. I'm tired of this "audio carousel". I want value and quality, value and quality, value and quality". It's not about how much money you spend...its about how smart you are in spending it!

Reb,

Agreed, but over the years I've gotten lazy in terms of collecting and taking care of vinyl. Lots of maintenance and lp's are expensive. Additionally, its hard to find a pre/pro with a great phono stage. My system must do double-duty for HT as well as 2 channel. Finally, as you mentioned the pricing for a really high end cartridge is ridiculous.

But Reb 1208 I may have to revisit vinyl as at least with turntables its much easier look at the internals, mechanical mechanisms, platter, etc and actually "see" some of the technology at work!

AVGURU

Jactoy and Essential,

Now that I've heard the Esoteric X01 on several occassions and have a good feel for how it sounds I would love to hear the Meitner gear. I expect the Meitner gear to sound similar but better. I'm sure it will blow away my DV 50 but I can certainly bring it. Anytime before or after the 19th is good for me!

AVGURU

Guido,

Still haven't been able to demo the X01 or UX1 directly against Jactoy's Dan Wright modded Sony, the Exemplar 3910 or the APL 3910. I don't know if we'll ever be able to demo the X01 vs. the Exemplar since I believe 711 just sold it and I'm not aware of any plans he has to obtain another one. I know he's also waiting to receive his APL 3910 with the new clock back from Alex sometime next week.

711 has indicated that he's still willing to purchase a X01 for demo purposes when time permits, however we will have to find another dealer as I don't think that particular dealer will have his demo unit much longer.

Regarding the Meitner, if Jactoy's next door neighbor is agreeable I see no reason why we won't be able to demo it against 711's and Jactoy's modded units against the Meitner at his home...but I don't know if he'd be willing to bring his unit to an Esoteric dealer to do a direct demo. That's a question I now pose to Brian at Essential Audio and Jactoy...will your associate be interested in bringing his Meitner to Qunitessence? And right now Quintessence is only scheduled to get a UX1 not an X01 so we really wouldn't be able to go up against Esoteric's best unit...although the UX1 is supposed to achieve 85-90% of the XO1's performance.

You should also know that Alex is in the process of modding a DV 50 (no tube output stage) so I'm excited to hear what that's going to sound like. Could he possibly bring it to the level of an X01? It will be interesting to hear Alex's comments about the before and after performance. It will be a couple of weeks before Alex finshes with that mod.

We'll keep you informed!!

AVGURU

711

I think everyone would prefer to hear one of Alex's latest mods...which would be the APL 3910. I think that's only fair to Alex. It's my understanding that you have already sent that unit to Alex for the upgraded clock...is that correct? Are you suggesting Jactoy or I pick up your older APL 1000 for inclusion in the shoot-out? If so, I'd prefer to wait until you get the 3910 back. When we did our last audition at your home I thought both the Exemplar and the APL 3910 were superior to the 1000.

FrankG

First of all, I think we should probably conduct the shoot-out at David's house (the guy who owns the Meitner gear). Or, over Brian's at Essential audio. I too have doubts that QA will allow us to do a massive test on their showroom floor. Plus, QA does not have an XO1 nor will they in the very near future. In the case of the Meitner (since its such an exceptional piece of gear) I'd prefer to put it up against Esoteric's very best. The UX1 is not quite at the level of the X01.

We probably could get away with taking a couple of the modded units up to QA to compare against the UX1 which (I'm keeping my fingers crossed) is supposed to arrive this week. That would be a separate, smaller shoot-out that would not draw the ire of QA. Plus, they already know I'm waiting for them to get the UX1 to compare against a couple of modded units so it shouldn't be a problem. As a matter of fact, I'm hoping we can do that this Saturday. 1Markr, Jactoy, Brian, 711, David...are you guys up to it?

Regarding single-ended vs. balanced, I agree that we should hear each player as it sound best. But the other problem we will run into is Jactoy's modded Sony sounds best going direct to the amp (bypassing the pre). My understanding from Jactoy is there's a pretty big drop-off in performance in going out from the rca's.

711's APL sounds pretty good thru the single-ended rca's (it beat my DV 50 handily in this configuration) but I think (not sure) his unit also can go direct to the amplifier and sounds better this way. In the past 711 has been so confident in his machines ability to beat others he really didn't care how it was configured so for him it may not be an issue. I don't know what configuration would be more advantageous for the Kern modded Sony. To thge owner of the Kern please let us know.

Some of you may feel differently but my system serves a dual purpose for both HT and 2 channel music. Additionally, I've already invested in a top notch pre-pro that I'm very happy with and not inclined to get rid of anytime soon. Therefore, I'm not interested in using a cdp that produces its maximum performance going direct to an amp.

Furthermore, I am a fan of multi-channel music (Jactoy's unit does not do multi-channel) and I want a unit that sounds glorious in both 2 channel and multi-channel.
I would hope that either Brian or David has a pre-pro that accepts both single ended and balanced inputs. Being a dealer I can't imagine that Brian doesn't have such a pre-pro and for that matter an amp that handles both.

I guess the point I'm making here is that its going to be very difficult to to a completely fair and apples-to-apples comparision that appeases everybody because everyone's music priorities may not be the same.

Personally, I don't feel the use of an amp with balanced inputs is that critical. For those machines that are clearly mfg'ed to sound better balanced (Esoteric and Meitner) I'm more concerned about making sure we have a pre-amp or pre-pro that has balanced inputs. The connection to the amp is of less importance (unless the amp is also fully balanced). I will also make sure the same balanced intrconnects are used for each unit.

Should Brian or David not have a pre that accepts both configurations I have no problem bring my Anthem D1 Statement pre-pro to the party. It is generally considered to be one of the most transparent and top-notch units availabletoday. It accepts balanced digital (AES/EBU),XLR, optical (Toslink), single-ended rca's, digital coaxial...basically any connection known to man! My amp (Cary Cinema 5) also has both single ended and blalanced connections and I could bring that if necessary.

1Markr

Yes, we always have a spot for serious audiophiles! Additionally, the Audio Aero is very well respected as both a stand-alone cdp and a dac and I would love to see how it fares in our shoot-out. We could audition your dac using either the Meitner or my DV 50 as the transport. The Meitner will probably be the better pairing.

AVGURU