Zu continue to amaze. Just got back from ESCO a modded Zu 103 cart. Within SECONDS of the stylus dropping in the groove, I'm in analogue Heaven.
Sean and the guys are engineering geniuses to take the humble 103 and boost it's performance to make it work right at home with what I believe are spkrs performing right at the apex of what's possible.
Had been considering the Straingauge cart, but not so sure now, really believe synergy may be everything. |
I'm right in 'the zone' listening to the ESCO modded Zu 103 cart on my tt thru the Def4s. It so outperforms the 4x more expensive, and more celebrated, Transfiguration Orpheus, that it's beyond a joke.
An amazing synergy is going on between these two components, maybe no surprise since Sean and the Zu team voiced the 4s specifically around the strengths of the Zu 103.
It's no coincidence that the most difficult components to get right in an analogue based audio system are the transducers (ie cart and spkrs). They hold the key to the 'flavour' of the system, and it's so easy to get their choice wrong. Thus it's great that both these components have a deliberate similarity in tone and feel.
So any tt users who are running the 4s, do yourself a favour and get the Zu 103, and even better still get the ESCO modification, you won't be sorry. |
The Def 4s continue to impress. My Hovlands are really synergising nicely, and feeling so attached to these components for 7 years now, I'm deciding not to go ahead with any amp upgrade. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
My opinion of the 4s escalates. Each day I feel it brings something new to the listening experience. Digital has never sounded so expressive, and the synergy of the spkrs with Zu's own 103 cart (augmented by ESCCo mods) really is bringing out the best in analogue too.
It's really refreshing to find an audio product where a revision brings a whole set of improvements rather than just a new name and inflated price for little in return.
Really feel at it's price point it's without peer, and sure it would give spkrs 2-3x the price a real run for their money.
All those Wilson/Magico/YG etc. purchasers are really missing a trick by not trying these beauties! |
Hey, am I the only one to keep the Def4 thread alive? A note to Phil esp., I've just got back the Uk based Expert Stylus And Cartidge Company (ESCCo) modded Zu 103 cart with unique Paratrace stylus and White Sapphire cantilever.
Rest assured Phil, imho ALL the positives of the stock Zu 103 are retained, with some distinct improvements - a much more lithe bass, but esp. a taming of the stridency in the treble that it was always a little close to on many discs.
In a lot of ways the improvements parallel the Def2 to 4 upgrade, ie the DNA of the Zu 103 is all present esp. supreme tonality and involvement, with a slightly less 'hot' balance, and a smoother, more extended, somewhat more transparent overall sound.
If you have a spare Zu 103, give ESCCo a spin, I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
Btw, will follow your cap comparison on the Druid V thread. Can you confirm that since the Druid V and Def 4s use the same Radian 850, any preference on the Druid V will be replicated on the Def 4s? |
Has anyone heard the Def4, or Druid5/Subs compared to the Sanders Sound Systems 10C? Very curious as I have the Sanders, but am contemplating a simpler system. |
Glory has. Email him. The Sanders stuff is spectacular IMO. |
I ordered Def Mk2's in May 2011........after six long months of delays caused by "new upgrades", one of the first production pairs of Def Mk3's arrived at my doorstep in Nov. 2011. My Mk3's have been used exclusively with Cary 2a3 SE monoblocks, a Cary SLP 50B preamp, a BAT VK-D5SE CD player, and well matched cables throughout.
Having lived with Def 3's for well over a year now, I can say that they are the most satisfying speakers I have owned in my 40 plus years in the audio hobby. Like most music lovers who have been around for awhile, many speakers, including, but not limited to, Klipschorns, Spendors, Magnepans, Shahinian's, Soliloquy's, Vandersteens, and most recently Azzolina Audio Grande Sfera's have spent significant time in my home. Though the Def 3's rarely fool me into thinking live music is being performed in my dedicated listening room they way the Grande Sfera's (read Lowther) did, and though the efficiency of the cornerhorns along with their effortless bass production with Altec 515B woofers is not matched, and though they cannot image nor provide the enormous sound stage of the Grande Sfera's, and though the sparkly grey finish doesn't meet the wife acceptance factor the way the small LS3/5A's finished in specially ordered teak did, they consistently please me more often on a wide range of musical styles than all the previously named speakers I have owned.
The Def 3's do all of the important things really well, even if they don't take top prize in any one performance category. They are so good overall that I have no choice but to award them with the best of show trophy in my small audio world! And award goes to Sean for stellar communication throughout the ordering and build process, and for providing tremendous personal sevice and support following delivery! |
2a3nut, I was wondering, given all that has been said about the Def 4s, if they will ever fit into your music equation? |
I'm back to listening to my Def4s with Quads and a Valvet preamp. The Quads are still fantastic amps. I think 6sn7 + KT88 is one of the best combos for Zu that I've heard. |
Warren, I have pondered that very question a number of times over the past year or so. The real problem is that my audio blood has been infected by the Lowther bug.
I recently had the opportunity to spend an entire week at my daughter and son-law's home where I became reacquainted with my Lowther based Azzolina Audio Grande Sfera's. On small scale acoustic music, Lowthers are fully capable of tricking one into thinking that a live performance is occurring in the living room. The ability of Lowthers to resolve the very finest details and to get instrument and voice timbre exactly right is something that Zu's new nano drivers simply cannot do.....in fact, the nano's are not even close. On the other hand this extremely high resolution ability is the very thing that drove me to the Definitions; Lowthers make poorly recorded music sound really bad, and in many cases, intolerable. Definitons, in contrast, sound really good on most all recordings. Currently I am tossing around the idea of a Lowther project, and will likely go that direction prior to taking the next step up the Zu chain. |
2a3nut,
Lowthers, and other full range drivers are amazing in their ability to tease out detail and perk up music. For me, almost all implementations I've heard were just too rough and peaky and seemed to "shout" too much for my taste (I still like the speaker). The most interesting Lowthers were the ones with the field coil magnet structure. The best implementation I heard of Lowther drivers was a three-way system made by Horning--a modified Lowther driver was used as a wideband midrange driver.
For full range drivers, I prefer Feastrix drivers. They have the same sort of issues with peaky response and poor bass, but, not nearly as much so as Lowthers. Unfortunately, they are WAY more expensive than Lowthers. A really interesting newcomer to the full range game is the Taiwanese firm Tang Band. I heard a few speakers using their full range driver, both in full range speakers and as midrange/tweeters in two-way designs. They manage to deliver the kind of dynamics and liveliness of full range drivers with surprisingly natural tonal balance. The Tang Band speakers are also MUCH cheaper than the competition.
I recently heard a system that uses an old Western Electric 756 full range driver as a woofer midrange in a two way design. This was a quite nice sounding system whose primary weakness was a lack of deep bass. |
Larry,
I always enjoy reading your well informed input and opinions. Have you heard the PHY drivers and in partic ular the 12 inch version?
Regards, |
Chrles1dad,
I don't think I've heard PHY drivers. If you have, I am interested in what you think. I find that you provide a lot of interesting and well informed comments in this forum as well. |
Thanks Larry,
No I''ve not heard them but always read good comments about them.Given your vast exposure I thought you might have had the opportunity.
Regards, |
Another "full range" speaker that I heard that really blew me away (don't know why I forgot about them until now) is a circa 1940 Jensen field driver (13" cone, built in tube power supply). I heard a system that uses this driver crossed over to a tweeter at, I believe, 8 khz (all but the highest octave being reproduced by the Jensen driver). This is the best overall sound I have heard from a full range or nearly full range single driver system. There was very little of the midrange peakiness of full range drivers--the sound was rich and warm and good with even large symphonic works (a problem for other full range drivers like the Lowthers), and bass was surprisingly decent. It is VERY unfortunate that this is an extremely rare speaker and there have been no successful attempts at cloning this driver. |
Charles, just spoken to Sean at Zu. Their top option for cap upgrade to the Def 4s tweeter is the Duelund VSF Black Cu. He's not familiar with the CAST and hasn't experimented with it. So the Black VSF is where I'm going. |
Spirito, since my Def 4s are under construction and Sean says their top option for cap upgrade to the tweeter is the Duelund VSF Black Cu, isn't that something I should have him install? Why o why doesn't he install that cap fro the get-go? $$? Why are you seeking a cap upgrade, and how did you figure out it was a cap you needed? |
Spirit,
The VSF Black is the model just below the CAST and is thought to be one of the finest capacitors available. I think you`ll be very pleased with your results.The quality of cap matters a lot in terms of maximizing sound. If it did`nt, Zu would`nt bother with offering higher level upgrades.
Regards, |
Warrenh, first off, you're going to be SO stoked with your 4s (and I suspect your wife may be just a little pleased too)! Despite my original reservations that the tweeter wasn't a night and day upgrade in the 4s over the 2s, I've done a 180 on this - in fact the higher frequencies are to die for. But, it took a LOT of adjusting to get the 4s to sound of their best, incl. from the tweeter. Hence, I wasn't at all feeling I was missing anything. But Charles has put the cat amongst the pigeons in expressly stating that a cap upgrade will extend the sq of the higher frequencies further. At the likely price of c.$1000, it seems like a no brainer to squeeze out maybe a last 5% of performance. If I was going down an amp upgrade, I would hold off on this, but I'm really happy with my Hovland amp/Def 4s synergy, and so this is the logical road to go down to improve performance envelope further (save for possible Zu Event power cords/replacement of stock spikes). |
Thanks Charles, decision to go down VSF Black Cu in motion, waiting on Zu's Sean and my UK dealer to liase to do upgrade. My Hovland amps are really hitting the sweet spot via the Def 4s, no upgrade needed here, so this is a no brainer to squeeze out another 5%. Feels strange to know that my system has gone up a quantum leap and is not wanting in any way. After this change, thus I'm rapidly reaching the end point of system building. |
The Def 4s were a very tough sell, but possible. If I knew about the caps in advance, I would have added that to the price from the getgo. Now, with all new kitchen applicances etc; this ain't happening. It's embarrassing to complain. High class situations. It would not be fair. Figuring the cost of caps and shipping to and from the Hamptons--major $$. I like your "stoked" line. Plain ole Def 4s should do me fine. |
Warrenh,
I understand your point.It seems the capacitor upgrade option should have been mentioned at the time you ordered your speakers.
Regards, |
I think that the cap upgrades are a recent addition to the Zu lineup based on my conversation with Sean a few weeks ago. And just to throw out the details of the rest of my conversation with Sean, he said that the Audyn True Copper caps were very near the level of the Dueland and the cost is about 1/10th of the Dueland. I've heard that from several reliable sources so if any of you want to upgrade to 95% of the Dueland at $30 per cap, try out the German Audyn True Copper Caps. Btw there is no US distributor. You have to order directly from Germany. |
Morganc,
Sean is entitled to his opinion and I respect that.Perhaps for his specific application this could be an acurate statement.
I`ll say this, there are numerous people on this site who have extensive experience with many of the highly regarded capacitors(at their expense). They would say there`re certainly good value to be found in some less costly caps that deliver true bang for the buck.I don`t believe that the 30.00 capacitor(though very good) is that close in performance to the Duelund VSF or CAST(maybe it`s close to the Duelund Alexander).I `ve use V-Caps(TFTF and OIMP) and Soni Platinum and they were quite good.The Duelund is just in a different class of performance.The CAST installed in my speaker and DAC provided stunning improvement(no hyperbole).This is one of those cases where more money actually yields more sound quality(this is`nt always true in High End audio products).Just my opinion with all due respect.
Regards, |
Interestingly the Zu Druid V to be reviewed in 6 Moons is having Duelund capacitors installed.I don`t know if this is due to insistence by the reviewer or was the suggestion of Zu.I wonder if Zu recommended the Audyn copper capacitor.
Regards, |
Zu recommend the ClarityMR over the Audyn with the DruidV but the Duelund wins.
Would upgrading the cap to Duelund in the Def 4 without upgrading the 2 resistors be of benefit as they are between the Cap and Radian? If it was me then Duelund resistors would be used throughout. |
Naggots, as far as I can tell from my dealer, Zu supply a network ie not just cap, but in conjunction with the 2 resistors etc. I suspect (although not sure) they'll be all Duelund. |
Hi Naggots,
If Zu recommened the Clarity MR capacitor over the Audyn how can the Audyn be '95%' of the Duelund?
My gut feeling is both the Clarity MR and Audyn likely represent excellent value per their cost.The Duelund is simply a higher tier performer and that`s what your paying for.
Regards, |
Spirit,
If you`re getting a network package with Duelund VSF capapcitors I can`t imagine why it would`nt also include the Duelund resistors(it only seems logical).
Regards, |
The network is a cap and 2 resistors with Event cabling.
I agree that Audyn and Clarity MR are 95% of Duelund but at 10% of the cost....... I quizzed Sean over them and he said to stick with Clarity unless going to Duelund....... In the DruidV
My point is however....... $500 cap linked to a $10 resistor before the tweeter...... The upgraded networks do not have Duelund resistors.
I'm not saying it doesn't sound good but it could sound better using $50 worth of resistors. |
95% of Duelund? I wonder about that. Well it`s all a matter of various opinions like most things.I do agree if going to the expense of Duelund caps may as well get their resistors(which are cheap compared to the capacitors).Naggots, you make a good point, the supplied non Duelund resistors could sound reaaly good as a total package.Interesting situation.
Regards, |
Dave - how do you manage to place the Def4's on the Sistrum sp-101 stand? Is there a stable and large enough surface on the bottom plinth to allow placement on the 3 spikes? It seems it could be a bit unhealthy for the sub if its misplaced or knocked off the spikes? Am I missing something?
Thanks. |
Germanboxers,
I don't know if you are asking me but my name is Dave and I own the Def 4's on Sistrum Sp-101's so here goes. It's actually very simple. You place the stand where you want it and adjust the 3 feet so they will be in an appropriate place when you set the speaker on it. Also, you place the coupling discs on the spikes and hold them to the stand with a piece of tape. I just grab the speaker in a bear hug and set it on the coupled spikes. They are very stable on the stands. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to do and the improvement will slap you in the face on the very first note. Look at Charles1dad's system thread. He articulated the improvements nicely. Every component I own is on Sistrum stands and would definitely recommend starting with your speakers if possible as that was the most dramatic impact. If you want more info you can reach me at dschwegman at gmail dot com. |
Hi Dave - yeah I was directing the question to you...we've spoke before re. Def4's and other system building/tweaking subjects about 9 months ago.
My admittedly neorotic concern is that when I bear-hug the Def's and set them on the spikes my aim is off and the spike comes in contact with the surround of the sub driver. Or, a too aggressive bump or shove (for positioning) causes the speaker to slide slightly on the spikes and punctures the sub surround. Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly how open (and vulnerable) the sub driver is or how much flat usable space is on the bottom plinth?
Thanks,
Jordan |
Oops..."neorotic" was a spell error and not a reference to new eroticism. ;-). Please replace with "neurotic" |
No worries about either one. Even if the spike gets between the grates on the sub(coupling disc falls off), the spike is sufficiently wide that it is stopped on the aluminum plinth before it gets close to the driver.
Regarding stability, I have given them a good shove and they are very stable. It would take quite the push to knock them over. 150 lbs on a tripod is a stable platform. |
I'm aiming to put one Symposium Acoustics Rollerblock Jr module at each corner of the two spkrs, and place them on Svelte Shelves. My Symposium Isis rack has been fantastic at isolating my main components, and I'm hoping I'll get a similar level of performance with my Zu Def 4 spkrs. |
Thanks David...your explanation was helpful. I can't seem to find any images of the bottom of the Def 4's, but what I can see of the sub/plinth from the side it looks like there would be plenty of space in the corners for the 2 spike end, but that the single spike side would necessarily not be in a corner and have considerably less area...think circle circumscribing the inside of a square; the corners of the square have spare area, whereas the midpoint of the side would be touching the circle (very close anyway). Is this correct? |
German,
Go on the Zu website and click on the Def 4 "Gallery". Scroll through and you will see images of the bottom. |
Markpao - thanks. It does confirm what I expected...not alot of room for the 3rd spike. Oh wait...there's an aluminum "grating" on the bottom. Is that correct? That would alleviate a fair amount of concern.
Thanks. |
German,
Yes that is the aluminum plinth base. As Dave mentions, there is no way you can damage the actual woofer or its surround. The worse that can happen is one of the spikes gets in between the grates, but I don't believe it will go as far as reaching the woofer.
Dave,
I am also considering the Sistrum platform. I know you mentioned that the speaker is still stable on it. But just how stable? I mean if someone (large) accidentally knocked into it (say on a 45 deg. anngle), will it topple over? I just have this worry about something this tall sitting on 3 feet. A big heavy amp no problem. |
It's stable...not as stable as 4 spikes on the ground but it's stable. It would take a significant attempt or accident to get it to fall. I had a big "oafy" dog and you nieces around them all the time and never gave it a second thought. Star Sound is not in the business of making stands that cause you to destroy your equipment. Remember that there are coupling discs on between the spikes and the bottoms of your speakers which greatly enhances the contact area and stability. If I thought they were in any way a hazard I would never even mention them for fear I would be partially responsible for destroyed speakers. |
I am a very big fan of Starsound and my rig is atop Sistrum stands 'cept my amp. I would put my Def IVs (on the way) on SP 101s in a jiff, but I'm tapped. I replaced my Def 1.5 with Audiopoints. In fact I never used Zu's spikes. The Sp-101s will be a major tweak to look forward to when the time and wife align with the stars. They are a gorgeous looking piece of speaker stand, as well. |
Dave,
Did you have your Def 2s on those Sistrums as well? I'm intrigued by what you have to say about them.
In the past I've noticed different footers could really shift tonal balance of the components placed on top of them, did you notice this at all or were they 'neutral' in their effect, so to speak?
Fred |
Fred,
The Sistrum's were purchased after the Def 4's so no experience with them and previous models. Chalresidad has a good descriptionof the Sistrum efects and I concur with his statements. The difference is anything but subtle. I haven't noticed any significant tonal balance shift with the Sistrums...Quite an improvement in my system.
D |
Schw06, how about some system pics homebrew? That would help people visualize this.... |
As you wish Andrew. I've posted photos of my system for everyone that is concerned about the stability of the Definitions on the Sistrum SP-101's. When you see the photos, it's much easier to understand why it is a very stable platform. |
SchwO6, how (by yourself?) did you position your Defs on these babies? You can't slide them once they are atop the SPs. This is some serious weight you have to hold while ,forget about just getting then to properly sit on the SPs, but how do you adjust (turn in out,forward/back) the speaker placement. I cannot imagine this not being done without a posse of three? |
It's actually very easy. You place the coupling disc on the spikes and secure it to the sides of the spike with a piece of tape. Then, just give the Defs a bear hug and set them on the spikes with the discs. It's a remarkable stable platform. Once on the spikes with the discs, you can pivot them with ease to change toe in. It's actually a lot easier than trying to adjust the toe in with the 4 spikes. |
I, too, am intrigued to listen to my prototype Pre-One preamp and ZH-230 amplifier through a pair of Def IVs. Unfortunately, here in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota I am having trouble trouble finding a dealer or speaker owner where I could audition these electronics on Def IVs. I hate to think I have to order speakers to do this. The sad truth is I may have to cross the Def IVs off the list if I am unable to audition them. I was not bowled over by the Druids I heard at Axpona 2014 so I am even more anxious to really put the Def IVs through a listening session in which I am familiar with the upstream components.
John |
