Hi Gsm18439,
Moving from those amps to a 300b made that much of a diference in driving your Zu Defs?
Regards, |
Phil,
It`s both refreshing and informative reading you contributions to this long but interesting thread. i found your exchanges with glory quite telling, you were coherent,reasoned and mature. You did`nt denirgrate his system as he did yours(he came off as loutish and childish). You gave your honest impression of the ASR Emitter without insulting him or questioning his judgement(it`s always to each their own). I`m glad that`s over.
Your preference for SET amplifiers mirrors my experiences and conclusions. There is no absolute best amplifier, all topologies and genres have some degree of trade offs(no exceptions). What the good SET amps do better(IMO)natural presentation(not canned), tone,harmonics/overtones and simply more convincing realism is most compelling and persuasive for me. SET amplifiers won`t please everyone. Others will be happier with solid state,OTL,class D or what ever.There`re numerous paths to excellent sound.SET just does it better for me.
Regarding balanced AC transformes,I use the BPT-BP 3.5 Signature Plus(over the last 3 years)and I`d give it the highest recommendation. My entire system is plugged into it without any downside, it will only improved your already excellent system.Phil are you familiar with the Takasuki 300b tubes? I replaced my Shuguang BT tubes(very good) with the japanese 300b, it`s a 'stunning' upgrade from an already high level tube.
Best Regards, |
Meant Takatsuki notTakasuki. |
Agear,
If you can`t appreciate the difference in manner between Phil and glory, that speaks for it self. No one is acting as an"overlord" we`re all expressing opinions(that will differ) on an open forum. So someone with Zu speakers did`nt like a SET amp,big deal, choose what you like that`s all. I`m sure some have rejected SS amps with Zu or other brands, does that mean all SS amps
are substandard? If you prefer SS that`s your call,nothing more or less.I suspect it`s you who needs to read posts more carefully. |
Hi Glory,
The obvious has been stated severl times in this thread,choose what you like best, plain and simple. Glory you`ve found ultimate satisfaction with theASR Emitter SS amplifier and prefer it(by a wide margin) over any tube(SET or OTL) amp in your system. Others would share your choice, that`s absolutely fine.
Phil auditioned the ASR Emitter and found it lacking compared to his SET amps in the qualities he considers vital. There are those who would reach the same conclusion as he. What on earth is the big deal with pure subjective preferences.
There are enough varieties of amplifer types available to please anyone, Pick what you find to be better and just be done with it. Why does it matter it others agree or not with your choice? |
Agear,
It does seem that some Zu models could be very special speakers. The fact that the Definitions can please both SS and SET owners at the very least suggests exceptional versatility. At RMAF 2011 I wanted to hear the Zu but they were blasting the music'so loud' I just did`nt bother with their room. It would be nice to hear them in phil`s or glory`s system. |
Glory,
your response is very strange,wetting pants? angry SET uwners? What are you talking about? It was 'clearly stated that we as listeners are going to have different opinions and taste. Why would your view of SET amps upset me(it does`nt) or other owners, or affect my joy with them(it does`nt). If you`re as happy with the ASR amp as I`m with my SET then you`re doing great. You do come off as a bit immature with your responses.Why does this have to be an either/or situation with something as simple as amplifier chioce,good lord! |
Spiritofmusic,
Congratulations! I believe you are going to be very happy with them. |
Phil,
It`s been very interesting and informative reading your detailed description of the DEF. MK IV. Have you heard the 12" PHY driver in the Tonian Classic12.1 or say the Ocellia speakers, are they similar(minimal/no crossover design) in sound?
Thanks, |
German boxers,
The Clayton class A amplifiers are about as good as it gets for very high level SS amps(regardless of price). Your example reminds me of my former Symphonic Line ownership.Some people will just prefer tubes to SS and vice versa of course.In your case OTL seems to fit your desires, for phil and myself SET is preferred. I`m not sure how glory`s experiences will impact your own 25 years in this hobby any more or less than phil`s or anyone else for that matter.(I`d assume by now you know what works for you). For every person who`s migrated from say low power tubes to finally settle with high power SS, there`re just as many who went in the opposite direction to their ultimate satisfaction.
Glory selected the ASR Emitter over all previous tube amp types in his system. On the other hand phil rejected the ASR in favor of his Audion SET. Simple point, it`s pure subjective decision making. There`s no ultimate superior amplifier just many individual preferences. Thank goodness we have such a varied pool of amplifier types to choose from.I like the OTL amps I`ve heard but I just like SET even more so, you may be the reverse.
A good tube amp(particularly SET) in my personal experience sounds more like the 'real thing'. At lease for me SS amps in general tend to remind me I`m listening to a 'stereo system' and are less convincing as providing that 'live' feel and presence.But hey that`s just me. I wish you the best.
Regards, |
Phil,
Thanks for your reply,
My Coincident SET amp and speaker are fabulous together as would be expected with the same designer. I find your experience with the DEF MK IV. very interesting and I`m attracted to well implemented simplicity.In general simple designs sound better to me than the complex designed components.The crossoverless speaker should in theory sound pure and have natural tone. I`d really like to hear this speaker one day.The Frankenstein very easily drives my 3 way(2 xover speaker) it should be able to drive the even simpler DEF IV. |
Germanboxers,
I understand your point,the Melody 300b SET could just be a mediocre SET amp. There`re so many 300b amplifiers available in the marketplace and at all levels,from sublime performance to poorly implemented.As expected transformer,power supply and parts quality can make or break a SET(or any amp for that matter). Gon member Morganc for example uses my amp with his Zu speaker and seems to love it(there`re certainly other upper quality SET choices), Phil makes a very strong case for high quality 845 based amps. It`s great to have viable choices. That 3-D magic you seek is certainly there with my Takatsuki-300b tubed Frankenstein/Coincident speaker(in abundance). I have no doubt that this is also very possible with your speakers.
Regards, |
Phil,
Very good advice for those who may be interested in the 300b amplifier route(strong,over built power supplies and transformers). In terms of the output tube for superior bass weight,impact as well as control/firmness and articulation= Sophia Royal Princess and the Takatsuki -TA 300b. these two do it all from bass to treble,they`re superb but very expensive unfortunately(they do deliver the performance!).Both are supreme, Takatsuki just a bit better. |
Keithr,
I believe your DEF IV and Sophia 845 SET pairing will provide you with stunning musical realism and 'natural' beautiful sound. In terms of resoulution,nuance,tone/timbre and dynamic ebb and flow you will have sublime results. I look forward to your future impressions.
Regards, |
It`s no shock that the Quad II amp outperformed more expensive amplifiers. IMO there`s a relatively weak correlation between cost and performance with a lot of current 'high end' components. The adage "you get what you pay for" has more than a few exceptons in this genre.I`m glad you trust your ears.
Regards, |
Glory,
It`s not just amplifiers, I`m referring to audio components in general. I don`t believe more money spent = better sound all the time.Developing a good home audio system requires thought,patience, careful matching and trial and error experience. Just simply buying more expensive components won`t always yield the better result,as Keithr has realized. I and I`m sure others have come to reconize this point. Spending more money certainly can result in improved performance,it just is`nt a guarantee.
Just a quick personal example, I`ve own a Symphonic Line amplifier and a 100 watt PP tube amp. Both were actually very good. My current amplifier is less expensive yet is much superior in sound,not even close.
Obviously we all have different experiences and conclusions with these subjective matters.If price and performance were that strongly related then simply buying the most costly gear you could afford would get the best sound. It does`nt work that way(not very often).To be clear I`m not dismissing the cost of better quality components,just saying it is`nt the only variable involved.
Regards, |
Markpao,
Yes the Zu is amp 'friendly' but that does`nt mean all amps will sound equally good with them. I`d think the Def IV has enough resolving ability to sort out the attributes of individual amplifiers.
Keithr has tried a fair share of amps,so for the Quad II amp to stand out reflects on it`s sonic performance even though competing with more expensive amps.The Quad is a simple circuir-straight forward design with good implementation, Often the less complex components sound bwtter. |
Or another possibility,Phil system is revealing the true character of the ASR. One perspective is as plausible as the other.For those who prefer the ASR amp why does it matter so much that some don`t hear it as you do? In phil`s system the Audion amplifier was simply better in his opinion. We have a diffence of opinions,heaven forbid. |
Keithr,
I realized quite a while ago that it`s hard to predict what combination of components will sound best to a particular listener.Your Def IV(on paper anyway) is 6 db more sensitive than my Coincident speaker and should mate even better to the lower watt amplifiers. I have a 100 watt (60 watt in triode) and a 40 watt amp(20 watt in triode) both are push-pull circuits.In my system both are bettered by an 8 watt SET.there`s no substitute for hearing amps in your own system. you are right in that YMMV 'strongly'. |
Spiritofmusic,
Will it be possible for you to actually compare these amplifiers in your system? I`d think the Audion and ASR are different enough that you`ll definitely go in one direction or the other. |
Spirit,
It seems you have built a truly excellent system,congratulations! Without question you`ll get numerous opinions regarding which power amp is better for your system.The ASR does seem to be overkill power(on paper anyway) yet I don`t doubt glory,agear or others who prefer it(why should I?). The issue is what type of sound moves you and connects you to the music you enjoy.
Depending on your ears and taste I could see any of the 3 choices working out great for you.For me given my preferences and priorities I`d buy the Audion amp in a heartbeat.But as we all know it purely personal choice as opposed to some infailiable objective rule book. Hey, just buy which ever one sounds best to your ears when the time comes. It is pointless to argue about which amp is better in absolute terms, audio is the epitome of a subjective endeavor.
Regards, |
Glory,
Validation from a reviewer is at the end of the day just another person`s opinion. You can find 'rave' reviews on any number of amplifiers(including my Coincident, just anothrer point of view). If the ASR is the best you`ve owned thus far that`s wonderful for you(and agear). The simple fact is not everyone will find the ASR compelling or particularly special(this is true of 'any'component.The short comings phil mention are relevant flaws to him and those who share the same priorities.I don`t find it hard to except that other amps do certain things in a superior fashion.
Bottom line the amplifier is a home run for you,enjoy it.If won`t please everyone so why worry about convincing others who have different sonic values? Do you feel only those who hear as you do are right and everyone else is wrong?
Agear, why stoop to snide comments about phil`s room/system and ancillary equitment? His system 'may' equal or perhaps better your own,how would you possibly know?
Regards, |
Keithr,
That`s a great plan! I`d love the opprotunity to hear what these various amplifiers have to offer.I hope you can pull this off.This would be a lot of fun.
Regards, |
Keithr, you posted 2nd post just prior to mine. Darn it! the was a excellent idea you had. |
Phil,
Thanks for your reply. Like I mentioned I asked out of pure curiosity. My 8 watt 300b works well with my 94 db speaker with multiple genres of music. So I thought 2 watts with a 100 db speaker would roughly be equal. I experience no sense of 'bumping' against a dynamic ceiling. Of course all flea powered amps(5 watts or less) are`nt created equal so there`s likely some range of varying sucess among them.
Thanks, |
Good discussion folks,
Most often when a cable manufactuer has both silver and copper offerings the silver is considered the higher end and better/further up the line choice(with rare exceptions). Silver is believed to be the more neutural,transparent,resolved and open etc. Tubes and in particular SET amps historically mate well with silver as they don`t usally require added warmth,fullness or body to enhance their natural tone and harmonics.
The ASR is class AB and uses OP amps in the input stage(thus introducing negative feedback in the circuit). This will certainly lower the low order harmonic distortion(2nd and 3rd) but unfortunately produces the higher odd order(5th,7th and 9th) that are really nonexistent with the SET amps(which do have higher amounts of 2nd distortion(this of course varies quite much depending on the particular SET amp used).
If would seem logical that the Kubala Sosna which is 'generally' considered a 'warm' and 'rich' cable will complement the ASR lean/thinner presentation(compared to tubes). A good silver cable won`t add this full body(nor subtract)thus there`s no masking or embellishment for the ASR.
Marshall Nack`s findings do make sense to explain this synergy. His discovery just makes the point clearly with regards to proper matching to get a desired result. |
Phil,
I`m curious would a 2 watt 45 amp or say a 6EM7 tube amp drive your Def IV speakers? or perhaps a 2A3 amp? I ask because 100 db is really high sensitivity and a Xoverless design is an easy load(at least in theory).
I see posts by other gon members who use these types of amps to effectively drive Fostex single driver speakers(usally 97 db ) as well as Lowther based speakers. These listeners seem happy with the results within reasonable limits.Your 845 tube amp seems like plenty of surplus power for a true 100 db speaker.
Regards, |
Spritofmusic,
Your 2 cents worth is well said and true. My point all along is due do our different preferences and goals, just choose what sounds best to 'you' and leave it at that.
Regards, |
Agear,
It seems you feel your taste/opinion have more validity than those who don`t agree with you. Plain fact is you should simply buy what you feel is best and not extrapolate beyond your own system experiences. No one got caught with their pants down(sigh).You prefer the ASR and that`s good(for you and others who also prefer it).I don`t know you personaaly but based on reading your posts you come off as dogmatic and somewhat childish, as if what you prefer 'has' to be better than someone else`s choice,Come on my friend grow up.Spiritformusic nailed it with his earlier post.
Regards, |
Matt, congratulations!
I `ll say that my curiosity to hear the Def IV has been piqued due to phil`s detailed description and obvious enthusiasm.I`m usally not interested in speakers with powered woofers but the crossoverless design and high load impedance attract me. |
Agear,
I missed the humor intent (hard to tell when reading threads I`ll admit) I apo;ogize. I don`t intent to patronize, just feel the debate about amp prefernces can get off track and silly after awhile.You may call it a platitude but I simply believe there`s no universal best when it come to audio components, just what one person happens to like vs other options(simple but true) exactly why so 'many' brands/choices exist in the first place. I`ll end it at that.
charles,
Regards, |
Hi Glory,
No, I`m not assuming the role of big poppa on this thread. IMO we`re all adults who happen to share a common interest of music and the components that reproduce it in our homes.It seems most of us by this stage have had exposure to enough equitment as to be able to form idividual impressions.
I freely acept the fact that people like different components(just as we have varied taste in the music we like). We are`nt(nor need to) all going to make the same choices when buying audio gear, this is logical.
Glory you and others have hit your sonic jackpot with the ASR amp, congratulations(I mean it sincerely). I`ve found utter joy with my Coincident 300b SET(phil with his Audion amps).I t`s sublime for me but won`t be the answer for others, just as the ASR won`t satisfy everyone.
My only point addressed to agear was his attitude that the ASR is a superior choice to any tube and or SET amp without question and that simply is`nt the case. How is it a platitude to state the 'obvious' fact that different ears will prefer different types of sound(this is why an absolute 'best'stance is`nt possible). A large SS class AB amp with NFB will surely be quite different to a SET lower power amp in class A without any NFB(both types have their supporters).Which is preferred is up to the particular listener, always subjective(by default). Within the realm of SS high power and SET there`s significant variations in performance and a hierarchy develops. Not 'every' SET amp is good, but some are outstanding, same thing of course with any genre of amplifiers.
Platitude alert, people will/should buy what sounds best to them if they trust their ears, is there any other way?
Glory I hope you enjoy your current system for many years to come,just as I plan to do with mine.
Charles,
Regards, |
Hi Glory,
I`ve said all that I have to say regarding the issue of amp preferemces. If I inferred incorrectly from agear`s posts then that`s my misinterpretation of his tone and or point he was making.It `s very clear people here are happy with a variety of amplifiers,ASR, Quad,Atmasphere,Audion,Ancient Audio etc.driving their Zu speakers.It seems the amp discssion had taken on a life of its own and was becoming redundant.We all have our choices and if that improves one`s system/enjoyment that`s the ultimate goal.I don`t even have Zu speakers but found this thread very interesting to follow.
Regards, |
Spirit,
You are correct,I was`nt trying to divert the topic of this thread. It was phil`s in depth and captivating description of the DEF IV that caught my eye. He has commented on other components in the past that I happen to know well and his impressions were dead on the mark IMO. So I tend to pay attention when I come across his posts.
His viewpoint on the current direction and sound of(most) 'high end' components is near identical to my own thoughts formed over the past 20 years.
Regards, |
Hello Arear,
1, I`m a true believer in the benefit of balanced AC power transformers. I`ve used the BPT3.5 SIG Plus for 4 years and as I`ve written elsewhere it provides an across the board improvement(yes,dynamics included) that is substantial.It`s permanent part of my system.
The room is an obvios major factor in regards to overall sound.I will admit I`ve not put in any effort to using room treatments as my room just has very good acoustics already(sheer luck?) people who have visited my home have all commented on the good sound quality. Could it be further improved? yes , but at this time I enjoy it and will leave well enough alone.
To be fair, I`m not read where phil has been dismissive of room effects,cables(he`s spoken highly of Zu cables and Auditorium for example). He`s also spoken positively about isolation transformers. He probably does`nt place the same degree of emphasis as you and priorities are likely in a different order.
I do prefer SET amplifiers but willing admit they all are`nt equal and their certanly is a pecking order. There are other alternatives in amplifier choice that can yield excellent results(I`ve never questioned that).Exception SET amplifiers just have worked out best for me and my desires .
Where I most agree with phil is the area of tonality,timbre and holistic attributes and their vital importance in presenting music 'natural' and convincingly.Much of the direction in the High End seems toward hyper detail and ultra clean low distortion. The result of this(strictly my humble opinion) is the sound becomes artificially lean, dry, sterile, 2-diminsional etc. The full body tone and harmonics are stripped away ( the complete note i.e.substain and decay is compromised)and the music will lose emotional involvement and sound canned.
When I listen to live acoustic music(mostly jazz)I`m always remined of the true fullness of the instruments and how strikingly beautiful they sound. There`s a natural flow and liquid quality(along with dynamic nuance and ease) that many componenets convert to a stiff or mechanical character(this is a major flaw). I want to preserve as much of that inate organic/holistic presence as I reasonably can.
Charles,
Regards, |
Sorry for the typos,meant innate not inate. |
Agear,
I love that blurb by phil, I can relate to his point.He just simply loves music and the emotional connection that can be communicated with the right choice of components and enviroment. I guess people like us are what could be called sonic naturalist(for lack of a better term).Seeking organic truthfulness and purity of sound with as little hifi artifact as possible.
Agear you`ve put a lot of research,effort and time in constructing a dedicated listening room. I hope all this work pays many dividends for you. I `ve heard some treated rooms,some executed more sucessfully than others. At what point in this endeavor will you realize an end stage where you feel enough treatment is utilized without it becoming counter productive(potentially)?
Regards, |
Agear,
Congratulations on your sucessful results. Do you plan to post your system and pictures on this site?I`d love to see that.
Regards, |
Keithr,
It does seem you and phil are true buddies and there`re no hard feelings. Despite the compromises you`ve noted with phil`s room do you enjoy the music when listening there?
Regards, |
Phil,
My suspicion was that keithr 'does' enjoy listening to your system.This is really the whole point of assembling a system in the first place;'enjoyment' and the 'emotional' involvement it is capable of. I`d love to hear your system and music selections one day.I believe room treatment applied judiciously can be very useful given certain conditions.Like anything audio however it can be a hit or miss proposition.This is an area of audio where the obsessive concern can 'potentially' run amuck if one is`nt careful.
Regards, |
Keithr,
The question I asked you about enjoying music in phil`s room is relevant. Either you do or you don`t enjoy listening there. If you do then in spite of the acoustical flaws you mentioned previously, the music communication is intact thus allowing an emotional connection.
Yes the room could be further improved(I`m certain) but the fact that his room satifies on an engaging level is significant.I`d imagine you`ve been in 'some' treated rooms that were`nt enjoyable as well as those that were very well done.Should`nt the music be inviting and draw people in ?
Regards, |
Keithr,
I do understand your overall point and it makes sense.
Looking at your system page the room is quite tidy and attractive. I imagine your sound is very good and inviting(especially with the simple circuit tubed Quad driving the Def IV).
Regards, |
Hi Phil,
Are there specific characteristics of your DEF IVs that led you to purchase the Melody preamp(very positive Dagogo review) rather than an Audion pre to match your Audion amplifiers( thinking brand synergy)?
Regards, |
Morganc,
Do the nano drivers render the Zu more neutral or revealing than the Pendragon ? Was the Frankenstein 'warmer' with the Pendragon(is this speaker perhaps voiced warm?). The Frank`s sound does change significantly depending on choice of 300b selected.I`ve used EH golden grid,W.E. reissue version,Sophia Royal Princess and Takatsuki-TA 300b. Each tube actually makes the Frankenatein sound like a different amplifier.
The Sophia RP is excellent,the Takatsuki is simply sublime!
Regards, |
I`d think the Melody AN 211 and the Coincident Frankenstein are going to sound quite different from each other,yet both would likely be excellent and special in their own way. That would be a very interesting comparision with the Zu DEF speakers.No loser in this match.I have`nt heard the Melody 211SET but I`d bet it`s fanstastic.
Morganc, what 300b tube are you using? I`ve had my Franks for over 3 years and have used EH Golden Grid(ok) Western Electric re-issue(just ok) Black Treasure,(very good) Sophia Royal Princess(excellent!). The absolute best IMO the Takatsuki TA-300b(japan) very expensive(1800 USD) but elevates the Franks to the truly sublime tier, just superb.This amp runs the 300b 'very conservatively' and will extend the life of the expensive tubes. Just something to consider.You`ll hear every bit of this superior tube with your transparent Frankenstein.The Sophia Royal Princess is close to the Takatsuki`s performance and better than the other tubes mentioned above.
Regards, |
Gsm18439,
Funny, you must have replied to morgan`s post just before I did. We had the same thought about the Takatsuki tubes.O f course I agree with you.
Regards, |
Sorry Zu owners for the 300b tube discussion but I just had to respond to morgan`s earlier post. Morgan the EML mesh is considered excellent and upper tier(I hav`nt heard it myself). The Psvane is said to be a bit better than the Black Treasure version(so it`s very good). Havent bothered with the 6EM7 at all.Phaelon is right, the premium 300b tubes are worth the cost.
Regards, |
Hi Gsm18439, I can understand Phaelon`s point to a degree. There are people on this thread, you,phil(213cobra) and others with perspective and opinions I respect. If you all say the DEF IV is exceptional I`ll accept that. However on 3 seperate occasions(most reccent was RMAF 2011) when going to the Zu room the sound level was stupid loud and they always seem to be playing rock or electronica(at least on my attempted visits) which made it even worse.It`s as though they`re trying to prove 'yeah we can handle loud'. It was a major turn off on each visit. I`d like to hear them at reasonable levels playing acoustical jazz or anything other than rock and pop music.
Their design and crossoverless approach gets my curiosity, I love simpicity in audio components.
Regards, |
Morganc,
Thanks for your reply.The Coincident model I have is really fine. Simple 1st order crossover and only 1 capacitor per speaker(no resistors at all). The Zu DEF,Horning and Ocellia(PHY drivers) are efficient-easy load speakers that seem special,at least in theory and concept.They seem to be built for music rather than current high end standard hifi(if you know what I mean).
Regards, |
Gopher,
Your big tube SET vs OTL comments are astute.These are two different camps for sure.Preference and system will determine which direction to go.
Regards, |
