Hi everyone, as a Def Mk 2 owner I am moving towards upgrading to Mk 4 status. Can those who have heard the Mk 4 comment on the improvements in treble quality with the radian 850 tweeter replacing the previous horn unit, since I feel this was most lacking in my room with the Def 2's. Regards |
Hi, as owner of Def2s considering upgrading to 4s, I'm most interested in new owners' opinions, esp. 213Cobra who has always had intelligent things to say about Zu.
Currently running my 2s with SpatialComputer Black Hole bass attenuator, and it has so evened out bass integration issues in my room that I really need to be convinced the 4s are not just an evolution from the 2s but a major step up.
So, c'mon all you Def4 owners, what do ya think?! |
As contented owner of Def2s, just a couple of things. Firstly, I've always loved the 'tone dense' sound of the Def2s, even though this is at the expense of best possible treble extension; so is the new Radian tweeter on the Def4s an improvement in this area?
Secondly, the massive bass output of the Def2s have led to room nodes issues, but I've been able to better integrate bass from the speakers into my room using the SpatialComputer Black Hole attenuator. Does the use of the single downward firing sub really improve upon the 4 rear firing drivers of the 2s?
Regards, Marc |
hi Musicxyz, that is quite a claim that the Def4s are the beating of $50k-$100k speakers-that puts them in Wilson Maxx/Focal Grand Utopia/Magico Q5 etc territory. I love my Def2s and am intrigued as to which speakers in this range play second fiddle. |
Musicxyz, us long-term Zu Def owners have always loved the authentic tone dense sound of the crossoverless FRDs in the design, but I am bowled over that you rate this improved design as superior to such uber speakers as the Wilson Grand Slam, esp. coming from your personal ownership. Looks like I really won't be able to resist the move upwards.
Upon getting bass integration sorted with the SpatialComputer Black Hole which the Def4s will improve upon further, can you comment upon specific improvements in treble extension/transparency going from the 2s to 4s, since this is the one area that could be reasonably criticised in the 2s. |
I have really dug my Def2s over the 5 years I've owned them, even more so with the SpatialComputer Black Hole sorting out bass integration issues in my room.
My main issue with them has always been the tweeter, which I feel has restricted the spkrs' microdynamic capabilities wrt to it's amazing macrodynamic prowess, leading to a dark tonal balance only lightened by bursts of treble when in the recorded material.
So, I'm so pleased that 213Cobra and Musicxyz have confirmed that treble extension is up there with the best, and not at the expense of the FRD magic macrodynamic picture, and opening up the microdynamic universe in music played.
Btw, to Musicxyz, do you think you're finally off your spkr merry-go-round and will stick with the Def4s? Can you resist the Dominances ( 3 FRD's, 2 supertweeters, 15" sub bass)? |
My only technical query re Def4s is that the sub bass is downward firing into the floor. I know this is an established practice since many dedicated subs work the same way, but it all seems counterintuitive. Can anyone put me right on the pros of such an arrangement?
Musicxyz, you are adamant that a quality cable choice must be made for good audio, and same make used thruout system, a statement I agree with.
The Def4s have internal Event wiring which with Neutrik Speak-On connectors form a continuous loom with the Event spkr cables.
Does this mean that you are going to switch to Event from your current choice, and by consequence wire your whole system with Event?
Marc |
Agree with Glory, 213Cobra, you're a Godsend in setting down really detailed info that gets to the heart of the technical, and, more important, subjective experience of the Def4 experience over and above the Def2s.
Until this point I've really been happy to stay with my Def2s, but only since I've added the SpatialComputer Black Hole bass attenuator to sort out room nodes/standing waves, which has helped the 2s to integrate thru the low end I didn't think was possible. Sean Casey at Zu helped put me in this direction. I'd really recommend all Zu owners (and others) to investigate it, I believe Sean demoed it at Def4 launch at RMAF 2011, and I'm sure the 4s will benefit also.
My main push twds the 4s has been helped by comments that the Radian supertweeter really has helped the top end, that certainly lagged behind the FRD's in the 2s and always drew attention to itself.
So 213Cobra, you really feel the high end is more complete, and of a whole with the rest of the spkr?
Btw, which finishes have all you Def4 devotees ordered your spkrs in?
Much as I love the custom black finish, I feel this may be impractical wrt light reflections esp. while watching movies, and day to day maintenance. My decision will rest between true black matte and Cosmic Carbon. |
213Cobra, you mentioned tube based power amps up to c.30W/ch would suit the Def4s. I'm currently running a Hovland tube HP 200 preamp with a Hovland 125W/ch poweramp into my Def2s, which sounds sublime.
Even on a loud listening session I v.rarely go past half way on the preamp volume, and at night normally a little lower. Would I get more performance out of the Def4s (and pow amp) if I go to a lower powered amp in the 30W/ch region, maybe allowing vol to increase well past halfway on the preamp?
I have been v.happy with the Hovland combination, but am v.intrigued by DAVID BERNING tube based pre and pow amps which use V-OTL technology to eliminate transformers on the input AND output stages leading to a sound which has the best attributes of tube and SS.
I think this may be a match in heaven for the Def4s.
Comments? |
213Cobra, I really can't thank you enough for such detailed answers which are giving me (and others) a real handle on the identity of the 4s. This is really important since I am likely to buy without audition first; no risk really, since I've been a convert to the tone dense xoverless FRD Zu sound for 5 years now, but your input is invaluable, and lucky for Sean at Zu, decisive!
Thanks for your perspective on amps. I'll be running with the Hovland combination to start, but am v.open to going down the SET route, which I'm fully aware is perfect in a match with 100+dB eff, and xoverless, spkrs.
My choice, since variety in the UK for audition being pretty limited, is to go down the more radical David Berning VTOL 30W/ch SET pre/pow, and on more traditional route Audion Black Shadow 845 SET 25W/ch, either mated to my Hovland HP200 tube pre or perhaps a TVC preamp (Audion dealer in UK recommends Silvercore or Music First). Any experience of the Black Shadow and also TVC preamps in general, which I know can swap overall fireworks for a more subtle rendering of tone and colour?
Just referring to a previous query, my current SS pow doesn't require me ever to turn the volume up past under halfway, hence I'm not using the second half of the preamps available gain. All things on the quality front being equal, will a lower powered SET amp mean that I'll go inro the second half of the preamps available volune setting, and as such will I get more performance from the pre/spkrs? |
213Cobra, you come to the rescue of us poor, non-technical souls out here! I do love the sound of my Def2s thru the Hovland combination, and if this is continued into the Def4s I won't be in a hurry to switch amps. Handy really, since giving my cash to Zu won't allow me to for the time being anyway!
So I gather from your answer, if I'm not mistaken, is that I don't have to chase possibility of using full range of preamp's volume control to acquire more dynamic control over sound if I'm happy with sound with preamp never beyond half way up as it is anyway.
Reading between the lines, the Berning amp combination, to your ears, is leaner tonally and faster dynamically than the Audion 845 SET, and the latter is where your musical happiness lies. That is warmth and tonality win over detail and speed, given the choice between highlights in these amps' signature attributes.
Luckily in the UK I'll be able to get a home demo of Audion Black Shadow and matching pre, and Berning pre/pow combination to make a clearer decision (if ever get to that stage).
Just getting back to the Def4s, since this thread is about them, can you go into any discussion re their stiffer structure: I gather quite a bit more metalwork has been applied esp. in the plinth for the sub bass and also the front panel for the FRD's/supertweeter which has increased weight 50% and contributes a lot to controlling cabinet resonances. |
213Cobra, will definitely try those attenuators. Now can I offer a little advice to you: please try the SpatialComputer Black Hole anti-standing wave device. All I'll say it has totally transformed the way my Def2s sound, by removing bass humps in the room (I have a node of 27.1Hz in my room), so much so that I often pop around to the back of the 2s to see if the bass is still pumping out (of course, it is). Sorting out the lowest octave has allowed bass definition (eg kick drum/plucked bass strings), midrange intelligibility and treble extension to improve, causing a real increase in transparency and soundstage. My guess is I'm experiencing a lot of what the improved bass in the Def4s is going to give me.
When I get the 4s, I'm going to investigate the possibility of more units to help at least a further 3dB (unless bass loading of the 4s really presents no issue).
My listening space is 22' wide x 27' deep x 13' high, to one half of the 22' width, a v.live industrial loft type space.
Re the Def4s, how are you getting on with the 5 way user controls on the back of the speakers? I know someone with open baffle spkrs whose active bass module has similar adjustments and he has relied on Behringer dsp shaping to maximise sound. Are Def4 owners likely to need dsp for the bass adjustments? My question is that do you settle on one setting at a time (from default), each setting independent of the next? If each setting DOES affect the next, surely there will be just too many combinations to try. |
213Cobra, I am v.sure that the Def4s with more even room loading will mean less reliance on the Black Hole, but it has been SO beneficial to revealing the Def2s performance envelope that the move to Def 4s is less of an overall necessity, but a v. nice choice to have. I would really recommend it to all Def2 owners because of the bass management issues I'm sure we all have in all types of rooms. And all for just $1250 more.
My main dilemma (are you reading, dear girlfriend!) is whether to go for Cosmic Carbon (light speckled grey which varies appearance in different ambient light situations), True Matte Black, which like it says on the tin, is totally light absorbent, or Gloss Black, which is so drop dead gorgeous, but I'm really unsure how watching a film from a PJ onto an 88" wide screen directly btwn the spkrs will distract with reflections. |
213Cobra, and other users of the Def4s, can you fill me in a little on the 5 way sub bass adjustments on the back of the speakers. This obviously differs re the solitary volume control on the back of the Def2s.
What I would like to know is if each control is independent of the next, or whether adjusting one parameter affects the previous/next setting. If each setting affects previous/next settings, then there is a whole lot of never ending tweaking to be done. Or is each dial adjusted and set with an apparent correct setting for the spkr/room interaction for that dial, and no influence on others? |
Phil, if I knew when to quit, I would have put my wallet away when I paid c$15000 for my first high end system in 1996, and not gone on to spend another c$85000 with never ending upgrades (Zu Def4s pending)! Ha ha!
You're right re prev post, I just wanted to know if control settings were intuitive to get right one at a time esp if they interacted with other settings.
I do know another (non Zu) listener who has an outboard active amp for his bass module with v.similar controls who uses dsp shaping (behringer?) to get correct levels for his room, and wondered if this at all is a route to go down with the Def4s.
Have pretty much settled on the Gloss Black finish, may go from never ending sub bass adjusting to never ending spkr polishing!
I really value your no-nonsense attitude to combining engineering principles and listening experience in your final opinions-can you peruse a couple of items that fit between pre and pow amp and tell me what you think?
First is BSGT QOL, second is NEUTRALAUDIO X-DREI. Both have threads on A'gon in Amps forum.
Marc |
213Cobra, I've been talking to the Audion distributor in the UK, and he feels the Silver Knight should also be in contention with the Black Shadow. There is an anniversary edition that takes it up to 18w/ch, surely enough for the 103dB eff Def4s.
He's also a definite advocate of using a TVC preamp with the Audion, recommending the Silvercore from Germany.
So is your preference for the Black Shadow (over the Silver Knight/Golden Dream) with the Def4s and decision away from TVC just personal choice, or from a technical standpoint as well? |
Hi Phil, once make Def4 purchase I will be auditioning the Audion Silver Knight, Black Shadow, Golden Dream at the UK Audion dealer. This will be fed by the Audion Premier (the only other valve pre likely to be heard other than my Hovland) and Silvercore/Music First TVC preamps, all of these with my complete Hovland HP200 pre/Radia power combination.
I've been so happy with my Hovlands (really upset when they went bust a few years ago), that the Audion gear needs to be a real step up in quality for me to consider parting.
I get the impression from your previous posts that you're a fan of the Hovland sound, and prefer it to the ASI Emitter/Tenor items mentioned.
What would you describe are the major contrasts in sound characteristics between your favoured Audions, my Hovlands, and my likely third and final alternative, the Dave Berning ZOTL pre/30w power?
Finally talking about not being to fully use second half of available volume settings on my pre, and use of attenuators, do you have any opinions on stand alone buffers that vary impedance/gain which source components are connected to, with the buffer then feeding the pre amp, esp Burson Audio AB 160 and Eastern Electric Minimax BBA?
Marc |
Phil, I really value your thoughts/opinions on all these topics, I think I'm getting a handle on all the decisive factors in going to the next level. The UK Audion dealer demos the Audion SETs thru the Audion Premier valve line stage pre amp, are you familiar with this unit? I see that you personally run your Black Shadow 845s thru a Klimo pre amp, any reasons why no Audion pre? If I go down the SET route, I may keep the Hovland HP200 pre to run things thru, and relegate the Hovland Radia to AV rear channel duties (a bit of a shame since I really love it's sound), unless the Audion Premier or Silvercore/Music First TVCs do it for me. The UK dealer really rates the Silvercore: it's a fantastically put together piece of kit, maybe it could swing you back to the TVC fold if you heard it?
I'm a little suprised to see that even though you run a balanced power transformer in your system, which I do and heartily recommend, you still apply conditioning to the power amp. For years I ran everything thru a Burmester 948 conditioner ($6000+), and despite all the transparency improvements wrought over untreated mains, there was definitely a squeezing of dynamics. Switching to a cheap ($600) 4kV industrial balanced power transformer, all the transparency was maintained with a fantastic increase in dynamic grip; I'll NEVER go back to any conditioning again, and am v. interested in looking at a pro transformer Westwick, 85kg! of copper 8kV isolation. So, you still feel even with balanced isolation to mains you still need conditioning to the power amp? |
Phil, balanced power really has opened up my system, and in my area we have internet booster stations, industrial power plants etc. which really introduce vast amounts of current/voltage variability and grunge into the local electricity supply. Treating the problem at source with balanced power has been a real eye (ear?) opener, so I am curious to investigate pro studio gear as well, esp. if I stick with the Hovland Radia ss 125w/ch plus rear channel amp. I think that even change to SETs will benefit esp. with any hint of transformer hum etc.
Your upgrading is going down the path of DACs whereas I want to look at a final turntable upgrade, and I am really curious to go down the idler/direct drive route, of which I have chosen a few value for money choices: Trans Fi Salvation idler with linear tracking Terminator T3Pro tonearm ($5000), Inspire Monarch which uses the Technics SL-1200 motor/drive ($7000), and Brinkmann Bardo direct drive ($8000). I gather you've moved away from belt drive. Have you found this as much a paradigm shift as moving over to SET power amps? |
Phil, Luxman PD 444 not likely to be on my shopping list, but I'd like your thoughts on the high end tt market. Different designers seem to stress preeminence of one or two engineering principles over all others. So with SME and TW Acustic we have overengineered construction and overspecified motors; with Walker and Bergmann we have airbearing, vacuum hold down and linear tracking tonearms; with Brinkmann, Grand Prix Monaco and Inspire Monarch we have direct drive (latter based on Technics SL1200); with reconditioned Lenco L75 and Garrard 301/401, and Trans Fi we have idler drive (and linear tracking with Trans Fi).
My question is that as a direct drive advocate yourself, together with an ever increasing band of followers, do you feel that direct drive (or idler drive) if implemented correctly will always trump belt drive, or as belt drive advocates argue that it is a synergy of everything being well engineered, speed stability being important but not totally decisive over the whole package (materials, isolation, motor quality)?
Btw, I'll try to get back to Zu considerations on future posts, Marc. |
Luckily, the UK is not an earthquake zone, so I don't feel the need to install an uber heavy (and uber $s) tt in my apartment. In fact I am v. taken by the newer breed of tt that are much sleeker in engineering/materials terms like the Brinkmann Bardo, Bergmann Sindre, Inspire Monarch, Trans Fi Salvation, Grand Prix Monaco 1.5.
The problem in the UK is that it is hard to get a handle on DD/idlers like the Steve Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, esp. when DD proponents say that it is impossible to go back to belt drive of ANY kind when DD/idler correctly implemented is heard.
My best bet is to choose between Brinkmann, Trans Fi, Inspire Monarch which will give me a good flavour of DD/idler, against belt drives like the terrific AC powered Palmer Audio 2.5 and Claro Audio Clarity Duo, despite these tts having few reviews, and minimal presence on the web. If my lottery win comes up, the $45000 wave Kinetics NVS looks the business; another day, maybe. |
With the ( I believe permanent) world economic downturn, the new sustainable paradigm needs to be looking for excellence in engineering in real world priced packages.
Not looking for untenable 'bargains' and expecting longevity eg $40 dvd players and $200 plasma tvs, looking for bargains everywhere.
And in audio high end, repelled by $150000 uber speakers/amps/tts.
I SO agree with you Phil, as audio goes off on this dead end tangent, Wall Street brokers/hedge fund retirees/Swiss and Monaco tax exiles can keep their Magico/Kharma/Continuum/Wavac gear, the rest of the world will switch off audio even further.
So the point of this rant is to extol the virtues of newer companies like Zu who put so much innovative thought and quality into their product at prices most in this hobby can afford within a reasonable time frame. I'm sure this applies to Audion and Dave Berning etc. It certainly did with Hovland (RIP).
What's the point of Magico Q7 at $150000, even if trickle down benefits mean their cheapest speaker is twice as expensive as the Def4s with prob only a third ( I'm being generous) of the performance?
As this applies to tts, I'm going to look at well engineered models below $8000. This means the Palmer 2.5 belt drive, fantastic timing for a non DD/idler; Claro Audio Clarity Dual, superb build quality belt drive; Brinkmann Bardo, incisive and detailed DD; Inspire Monarch, excellent use/upgrade of time honoured Technics SL1200 DD technology; and biggest value for money of all, Trans Fi Salvation, idler dynamics/linear tracking neutrality.
Unfortunately 47Labs Koma, EAR Disc Master about twice my price limit, v.hard to get audition in UK, so non-starters. |
Looking at True Matte Black, Cosmic Carbon, and Charcoal as alternatives to Gloss Black. For my decor (and mental state of my girlfriend), variations like Ferrari Red Gloss are out. My Def2s are Nextel Grey which has been functional but a little dull, so my dilemma is whether to go for a paler, possible metallic grey like Cosmic Carbon, darker Charcoal, or push for total black, Matte or Gloss.
Anyone with experience of these color schemes please help. Swatch samples from Zu are on their way to me. |
Thanks again Phil, your informed comments on the Def4s are really filling me with supreme confidence that when mine are installed in 4-6 weeks, I'm going to get that step up in performance from the Def2s. |
I'm getting close to making a final decision to go up to the Def4s, hoping to have a buyer for my 2s sorted. Ironically the one aspect that has held me back from full satisfaction with the 2s ie bass integration has now been sorted out with the SpatialComputer Black Hole in my Def2 setup, so much so that I've really had to be convinced that the single down firing sub in the Def4s will take me a significant step beyond even this. Phil with his really cool in depth description/analysis really has boosted my confidence here, since I am likely to buy without audition first (sharp intake of breath all around!).
What I have found most illuminating is Phil's description of the greater spectrum of frequencies covered by the new nano impregnated FRDs; they seem to extend deeper into the bass and higher into the treble, which was not even a consideration of mine when trying to work out if the Def4s were likely to outperform my Def2s. The idea I get is that this takes further workload off the sub bass and supertweeter, but since these new drivers too are improved, integration esp. and outright performance are all lifted.
In conclusion, I was initially really worried that the Def4s may have turned out to be a dilution of the unique tone dense signature Zu sound which I (and plenty of followers here) am addicted to, but thankfully they appear to be a reinforcement and step beyond what I love already.
Phil, can I trouble you for a summary of what you're currently finding as the Def4s unwind (btw how fast does the sound open up, how many hours before they'll give of their best?) |
Ok, now I'm convinced the Def4s are the way to go , a matter more serious than sound quality, which finish to choose - one must be happy, but ensure one's girlfriend is even happier!
Seriously, Sean and now Gerrit and Christian are on the case and will be sending me samples for ghost black, true matte black, charcoal, cosmic carbon and gloss black. Def4 (and other Zu owners) please pass comments - my Def2s are Nextel grey, but I fancy another grey or black finish this time around, so far I'm veering towards paying the premium for gloss black. |
Gsm18439, I tend to agree with you, want something a little more dramatic than my existing Nextel grey. Is this Gloss Black finish easy to maintain ie re fingerprints/smudges, static attraction of dust etc? I get the impression it's an automotive type finish, so pretty scuff resistant I hope?
Will stick with natural aluminium fittings, as contrast against the black. |
Power and room acoustics are really really important.
After years of listening direct from the mains in an area with a highly corrupted electrical supply I installed a c.$6000 power conditioner which opened up the soundstage and lowered the noise floor, but as with all conditioners, there was some pinching of dynamics due to restrictions in current supplied to power amp during peak passages. I recently progressed onto installing a standard $600 (small fraction of cost of conditioner) balanced power transformer; soundstage expanded a little further, but now unlimited dynamics.
This change has NOT been subtle, so my advice is go for a cheap 4kV (at least) transformer to give your system totally balanced power and you will not be disappointed.
On the subject of room acoustics, I really object to dedicated listening rooms. Great if you have the real estate, but most of us have to live and listen in the same space, and you want to welcome, not banish the family.
So for me the SpatialComputer Black Hole anti-wave generator has been a Godsend.
With my current Zu Def2's they'd always sounded great except for bass node/standing wave issues esp. around the 27Hz region. Rather than redesign the room or load it with obtrusive traps etc., I gave the Black Hole a whirl.
It has really tamed these bass excesses so the whole musical spectrum shines. On acquiring the Def4's I am even considering one or two more units to totally subjugate this acoustic issue for good.
Happy to expand further on these issues, but total cost of c.$2000 has transformed my system, taking it to a level that spending 10x this amount wouldn't have acheived. |
Rockadanny, I've eliminated the conditioner completely, although one possible variation might be to plug the power amp into the balanced transformer, and the sources/pre into the conditioner.
From what I gather, most people run one or the other.
Main caveat with the transformer is that the copper windings (my industrial unit is 60 lb) take time to bed in, so treble was hard for about a month, sweetened after that time, now I would never go back.
I am also looking at a pro based unit that supplies 8kV (possible overkill here) weighs 180lb! and is in the same price territory as my previous conditioner.
My $600 unit is the biggest bang per buck upgrade in my system, and that's in the context of a $60000 system. |
Gentleman, this is another example of system synergy. Years ago I tried SS Krell amps in my system, found them bleached/sterile, then tube BAT, found them too warm/coloured. Progressed onto tube pre+SS pow Hovland and it's been in my system ever since.
Aware of this, I'll be fully prepared for sound differences between ASR and Audion/Berning if I investigate amps.
My current consuideration is cart/phono stage (subject for another thread). |
Glory, i WAS in on the joke. However since so many in the audiophile community change their equipment as fast as they change their underwear, there may have been some truth in your statement.
Great to hear that you (and 213cobra/Gsm18439) believe these speakers are up there with those in the upper level of performers. Although, with the frankly ludicrous prices being charged for the state of the art in loudspeakers, thank God for Zu Audio and their real world approach to performance/price ratio. |
Agear, couldn't agree more. My noise floor has really dropped using a standard industrial grade balanced power transformer, I now get that 'after midnight' sound ALL day long. I live/listen in a very dirty power area, surrounded by mobile booster stations/heavy industrial power useage etc.
Additionally the Black Hole bass attenuator has dramatically improved detail threshold in my room.
These two items esp. balanced power have done things NO component upgrade, no matter how expensive, could have acheived otherwise.
Power rules! |
In response to this amp emphasis on the Zu thread, I'm currently running my Zu Def2's into a Hovland HP200 tube pre amp and Hovland Radia 125W/ch dual mono power amp (both unavailable, Hovland actually sadly having gone bust some years ago).
The combination is v.beguiling and true to source. I am v.confident that the Def4's will sound great thru them, but in due course would love to try an all-tube amp chain, either the Audion Black Shadow 845 SET 25W/ch, or the Dave Berning VOTL combination.
I have taken Phil's advice and tried -10dB attenuators on the termination of i/c's between tt/cd and preamp. This is now allowing me to turn up the preamp so I get the same volume at 2o'c instead of 11o/c. The result is much more presence thru the midband and an increase in bass heft. $30, no contest! |
Germanboxers, hang on, I'm still working 24 hrs a day and 7 days a week to get it together! Seriously, I've just received paint swatches from Christian at Zu and need to make a final decision re finish. I was set on Gloss Black similar to that used on the Def4's shown at RMAF '11, but I'm swinging towards Cosmic Carbon which is a sort of flecky metallic grey which will look different in different ambient light conditions.
If cash flow goes ok will be looking to order next month and receive in June/July.
Re amps, I'm not in a hurry to change, so auditioning Audion/Berning is not first on the agenda, but upgrade to turntable definitely is, and I'll be moving away from belt drive to either idler (Trans Fi Salvation/Terminator T3Pro linear tracking arm) or direct drive (Inspire Monarch or Brinkmann Bardo).
I will definitely post experience on the Def4's when there's something to say. |
I've replaced a $6000 audiophile power conditioner with a $600 standard industrial balanced power transformer. Night and day difference.
Currently settling on Cosmic Carbon as choice of finish for Def4's. Hope to make a decision to buy in the next week or so.
Everyone's thoughts on this choice? |
Glory, I'm disposing of a Burmester 948 conditioner, superior, to my ears at the time, to the Audience, PS Audio and Isol units that I auditioned. Sound quality was much improved wrt to standard mains re tonality and noise floor, but dynamics always appeared a bit 'pinched'.
On installing a decidedly non-audiophile standard industrial grade 4kV (and in my opinion it shouldn't be any less than this) Airlink balanced mains transformer, all the positive attributes of the Burmester were maintained, with unrestricted dynamics. I now love listening to music thru the day, with v.little improvement after dark.
There are two caveats to this; one, it took 4-6 weeks for the treble to open up from an initially hard sounding start, attributeable to the 60+lbs of copper in the transformer burning in; and two, upgrades are always system dependent, but in my case with really corrupted mains quality in my area, upgrading power has always taken precedence over equipment supports etc.
My Airlink has 2 outlets, from each I run an 8 way multi socket, and plug audio and video components into these.
I believe Airlink is a UK provider (230v) only, but there will be companies in each country that should supply locally.
After a period I may investigate a Westwick pro studio unit that uses 150lbs! of copper in its 8kV unit that may provide an overkill solution to mains contamination. In the USA I believe Torus provide a similar level of engineering. |
So boys and girls, I am taking the plunge and hoping to order Def4s by end of week for a June/July delivery.
I'm veering towards Cosmic Carbon, a little different from the standard black I always end up buying.
This has been a tight decision for me, since use of balanced power and Spatial Computer Black Hole has really sorted out long term bass integration issues with my Def2s, but expert opinions from all here on this thread, with special mention for Phil 213Cobra, has really piqued my interest in a whole new world of Zu loveliness, so I'm going ahead.
This really MUST be my last speaker purchase, so please Sean and everyone at Zu, don't tempt me a few years down the line with Def5s etc., I'll have to hope my hearing will have gone by then! |
Hi Phil, I actually v. nearly got off this particular train when the balanced power/Black Hole combination sorted out the bass integration issues in my room with my Def2s, but I'm going to travel one last stop, and hope the view is picturesque enough for me to want to get off and retire.
On a serious note, the audiofool disease to continually upgrade is something I'm getting aware of with each major component substitution, and beyond a complete change in turntable I want to start concentrating on improving the system thru further mains/room acoustics solutions, rather than big ticket purchases.
I get the impression that on your upgrading to Def2s a few years ago you were immediately aware of limitations in the tweeter esp. and of bass integration, but still felt the overall package was worth the change, and with the Def4s ALL of these negatives have been addressed and they are as close to ideal as you could hope for at this level.
My wish is that I feel the same, and with mains/acoustics issues already significantly addressed will get that final sense of ease we're all looking for in musical reproduction. |
Ghostinthemachine, I can't comment on your experience since I'm not connected with Zu or their distributors, but if you haven't already bought alternative speakers do contact Sean at Zu and see what he can do. I believe they have run 60 day risk free home trials for many of their speakers in the past, and maybe this could be arranged for the Def4s.
It's a shame, since you're missing out on one of the most holistic experiences in music reproduction, which I am buying further into myself personally by purchasing the Def4s. Ironically enough, since you're not considering, I complete the transaction today. |
From what I gather on comments here, The Radian supertweeter is sweeter and more extended than the rather rough and ready unit in previous Definition models (like my 2s). I'm really hoping it's going to integrate well with the FRDs and ease my current lack of high frequency satisfaction. |
Ghostinthemachine, I'm based in the UK, so my advice is to email Sean Casey at Zu direct. He is a stand up guy, always prompt and super enthusiastic with replies to enquiries.
For my part I have run Def2s since 2008, and have just paid deposit to get Def4s construction up and running.
I would urge you to find a way to audition the Def4s, the Zu sound is just such an involving way to enjoy your music. |
Just paid 50% deposit to get Def4s' construction up and running, aiming for completion June/July.
Have decided on Cosmic Carbon finish.
I believe the Zu's will improve my luck, make me more attractive to women, help me be successful in the Stock Market, and improve my contentment levels listening to music.
Hope the last one is true, at least! |
A little update to my order. Sean of Zu informs me he has an improved finish called Soft Touch, which purports to be, well, softer to the touch! That is, over their more standard Nextel. I'm likely to go for this in Cosmic Carbon.
Any further thoughts re ongoing experiences with the Def4s by owners who've had them for a while? Early adopters must find they're close to fully burnt in now.
Are they improving further as they open up? |
Thanks Phil. Actually, I've always found Zu products haven't required serious break-in, obviously several hours must be performed at the factory before they're delivered. This applies to the Zu Event phono cable I've bought recently: it sounded great out of the box, and has only improved a little in the intervening month of continual use.
When I bought my current Def2s in winter 2007, it was pretty cold, and it took a good month for the soundstage to widen as the drivers physically warmed to room temperature. Since I'm going to take ownership of the Def4s in the summer, temperature should be less of an issue.
Great to hear your Def4s sound so good so quickly, and continue to impress. |
Hi Germanboxers, any further comments on the 4s if they're opening up? Interesting that my 2s took about a fortnight before they gave of their best, your 4s seem to be taking a little longer. Hoping to have mine ready by early summer, will comment in due course. Regards to all |
Hi everyone, Def 4s on track to be delivered to me in July/Aug. 213cobra and all others who've bedded in their 4s, how are they checking out after a few months of listening? |
Well if they have Glory, I've not seen any pairs for sale on A'gon, Ebay etc. I could have picked up a pair cheap, damn!
My guess is that they're so happy and engrossed by the 4s that they have no time to prise themselves from listening to them to post updated comments.
Maybe one day... |
So glad the buzz on the Def 4s is uniformly positive. As I've said on this thread before, I've purchased sound unheard based purely on my experience of the 2s over the last few years.
A recent tt purchase has been really positive but aspects of it's spound have challenged poss lack of transparency in the 2s. I'm hoping the improved nano FRDs in the 4s are going to improve this side of audio reproduction. |
I can really second that, Glory. Contact by email with esp. Sean, but also Gerritt, always elicits helpful prompt replies. Even in these days of having to work for people's hard earned $s, such great relations really encourages positivity in sticking with this company. Sean esp. seems a really happy fellow, and I get nothing but excellent vibes in dealing with Zu. |
I can pretty much understand where the pro and not so pro ASR comments are coming from. It's the age old debate as to whether cool detailed neutrality is preferable to a maybe more colourful but equally vibrant sound.
My Def 4s are due to be ready in July, and having taken on a highly neutral and transparent tt/arm (see my thread on the analog forum 'Trans Fi Audio Salvation direct rim drive turntable') I'm on the hunt for a neutral cartridge.
The market for an upgraded amp is an interesting one, currently I run Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia ss pow, which has served me well with the Def 2s. I have identified three ways to go if Def 4s indicate need for improvement, all for about the same price as the Def 4s. These are: the ASR Emitter 2, Dave Berning Z-OTL pre/pow, and the Audion pre or Silvercore TVC pre/Audion Silver Dream pow. My only issue with the ASR as a complement to the Def 4s is that the amps are overpowerful at 250w/ch feeding 101+dB efficient speakers, which by design only need the first 15-30W on tap. Doesn't this leave a possible power/impedance mismatch between the ASR and the Def 4s, showing neither to their best advantage? |
