If you know that a user is a dealer and they fail to disclose and attacks other users because they make a point against their interest, do you expose the user?
I know of a gentleman here that continuously posts and goes after people and does not disclose who he is.
Very interesting observation that you make to me one year ago or more about pipe church organ and the tuning of the church illustrating my "mechanical equalizer" device...
I dont doubt that you will be pleased by the tunable Helmholtz resonator...I cannot wait with your chicken driends to pick your comments and seeds idea...
At least when i have read your comment one year ago i think someone know about what i think about here....
Thanks for your always witted and colorful instructive posts ...
My deepest respects....
My traps are based on the Vicoustic Vari Bass Tunable Helmholtz Resonator theory I can open and close the trap face to adjust the frequency I want to trap, THEN turn the Vari Resonators to fine tune the standing waves that still need a little convincing.
See Master M. I payed attention it was 62 yeas ago when my father took me into the Gothic Cathedrals of Spain, England and France. They use the Helmholtz theory to tame rooms and also as a spying tool, to throw sound in a particular place. Priest had one commodity, confession.
That's OK it wasn't addressed to you it was addressed to Master M and his lab. Someone said they couldn't tell by looking, so brail is out too, I find it odd what folks can tell from picture.
I was told a picture is worth 1000 words. I agree. Not to argue at all, just state some simple facts. I didn't figure out my rooms 2 or 3 years ago, I figured them out 35 years ago. That is my whole point. I don't have to go through a 5 year study of my room. It was done in 87-89.
I'm sorry if I'm a little ahead of schedule comparing notes anyways. I thought that was the point. If Master M's 2-3 year journey has netted him good results be proud of me Master M. I did it 35+ years ago. That is all I'm saying.
BTW it didn't cost to much, I used what was left over after building the rooms myself, including every nail and screw that was driven by me, not someone else..
Like 2 128cf Traps and a flush wall gear rack on a 24" x 36" x 16ft concrete slab with 8" x 8ft friction piers. It's actually reinforced concrete with cable not rebar.
The experiment for me was done a long time ago. I may not have quit the look of your lab Master M, but I assure YOU, my working shop is close.. The storage shop is a little more polished, I quit hanging meat in there anyway. But the meat hooks stayed. It impressed the neighbor lady, She likes tight black leather too. So do I, on the floor. "She can leave her hat on"
SO, before everyone gets all fluffy, some folks did do their homework a long time ago. BTW not a single thing changed.
My traps are based on the Vicoustic Vari Bass Tunable Helmholtz Resonator theory I can open and close the trap face to adjust the frequency I want to trap, THEN turn the Vari Resonators to fine tune the standing waves that still need a little convincing.
See Master M. I payed attention it was 62 yeas ago when my father took me into the Gothic Cathedrals of Spain, England and France. They use the Helmholtz theory to tame rooms and also as a spying tool, to throw sound in a particular place. Priest had one commodity, confession.
I have golden ear best there be. My ear hair made of diamond. Lady flock my system in all country I live. Now I buy company in Asia and I have smoking neighbor daughter all excite about deep power subwoofer bass. She do zoom call with wife sister and we try massive sub tonight.
@oldhvymecI never claimed to be the pinnacle of anything, or that my sound is perfect because it far from it.
This was the sole purpose of joining this forum, to exchange ideas, learn as much as I could and have fun.
But all of the sudden, some gentleman that I do not know, got personal, aggressive , made fun of my name, for the sole reason that I posted links to the IEEE and the Ethernet governing body that contradicts a lot of what he had to say in that thread he deleted.
I never called him names, or was disrespectful to him in any way.
Good for you that you can see a room from a picture and tell what to do with it to make it sound better. It is an admirable ability, which I don’t have.
I totally understand that a little knowledge goes a long way, but at the same time I am not satisfied with a little knowledge on the things I am interested. I am curious, eager to learn as much as I can, my brain and time will allow me.
the one thing I learned from this thread is how easy is to get sucked in a sea of negativity and end up wasting energy all along the way.
Completely unworthy.
It’s easy to throw money at a problem to solve it. Much harder to do it on an every man’s budget. But @mahgister is right. A little knowledge can go a long way.
First: i never presented my room to be a model of what people must do acoustically.. ( nobody has seen my room anyway it is madness beyond the old virtual page but it worked for my listening experiments thats all that matter for me)
Second: i only used my dedicated laboratory to EXPERIMENT with unknown devices i created : my mechanical equalizer...And other things..
Third: it is because of this mad scientist silly room experiments that i discovered what nobody has never taught to me in audio threads BEFORE : acoustic is not an ADDITION to the gear but the ONLY WAY for ANY gear to reach his true working potential...READ IT TWO TIMES....
Then acoustic is way more powerful than the choice between a McIntosh amplifier versus my Sansui Amplifier or any other amplifier...Miracles come more from the room than from the gear save if you go from the bad designed one to the top best designed in the world for sure... When i spoke about gear choice being secondary i speak about relatively well designed products at all cost...
Four: anyone who pretend to judge my S.Q. by apperance of an image is ignorant of acoustic thats all...
Five: if someone had money he can perfectly design esthetically invisible Helmholtz resonators and diffusers grid, inside walls or ceilings, what i called my mechanical equalizer, way more better than what i did from scratch with junk...Nobody teach me about that to begin with anyway because nobody ever did it the way i did it...
Six: People judge on appearance in different way, for exemple this reviewer who claim Macintosh look too much beautiful to be the best amplifier...In the same way my junk yard room look too awful to give ANY significant S.Q. for him certainly like it did for an other seller here who dare to judge my room instead of argument... Even if the junk is a grid of Helmholtz tubes made in some case with toilet paper empty rolls and straws, nevermind my room look like junk but sound like refined by an acoustic devices grid......The best solution would have been design the room from the beginning with part of the Helmhotz grid INSIDE the walls...I could not afford the cost and anyway i made my discoveries in an incremental set of experiments in a 2 year period...
Seven: i am sorry for all people who own costly gear and costly tweaks but we can create marvellous sound with NOTHING save discarded junk materials and a 500 bucks system...I have nothing to sell save creativity... This fact dont please everyone...Especially if my ratio S.Q. /price is one of the best possible...
Eight: my wife want to made me closed in an asylum yes, and she is very pleased i never dare to touch the living room... But she say that my audio system sound very good and so said all those who are sure that i am mad... i am mad for sure i dont object to that....
But my ratio S.Q. /price made meaning also the other way around: what about people who have paid many, many more than me without enjoying a great S.Q. ?They must UPGRADE? They must buy costly "tweaks" ?
I dont need to upgrade and no tweaks have appeal to me now save those i created myself because they worked for me...And no gear, no tweak will beat acoustic method anyway...
Simple...
My deepest respect for my friend for sure....
Sorry Master M. She would offer CPR if you needed it after your 2-3 year journey to get there.
OP after setting up enough square or rectangle rooms with 8,9, or 10 foot ceiling you kinda know where you're at.
In Master M’s laboratory not so much. I would only enter with permission and then only with a guide. I’ve been in a few (Tesla) labs in my life. You just don’t touch stuff or enter without permission.
The only issue I have with that set up is the wife listens to more Stereo than me.
She would take a rake, a hoe and most likely a machete and clean the place out.
She knows what works for her too. 2 hours she would be up and running stuffing pillows for starters in the corners after that.
Sorry Master M. She would offer CPR if you needed it after your 2-3 year journey to get there.
I have no doubt your Sanctum is the pinnacle of sonic genius. Your selection in decor is rather spectacular too. I personally can see the work it would take to get a room to look like that and sound good. That wouldn’t be a problem for me if in the end it DIDN’T stay that way.
Knowing we can achieve perfect sound at the expense of having to visually block what I’m surrounded by is not something me or the wife could do. Experimenting yes, permanent NO.
After 40+ years in the same house, she know the rooms as good as me.
I just watched her move the dog from in front of the right monitor, the dog went back over and laid down. She got a couch pillow close to the same size and dropped it on the left side in front of the speaker.. LOL I never said a word..
I did get "THE LOOK" when I called the dog though.. :-) She snatched the pillow back up..
IMHO making decisions or even believing that you can judge a room’s sound acoustic signature by a picture is nonsense. Clearly, I am talking about rooms that properly arranged and not with armchairs or refrigerators in-front of speakers, turntables set up in flimsy tilted racks, or running machining tools in the room, with everything plugged in a power strip that was meant to be used to power Christmas lights. If this is what you are suggesting then I would, to some extent, agree that you can provide some feedback.
But then you have @mahgister ‘s room and system that looks like a mad scientist, who he is 😊, lab/room in search of the ultimate solution; and by looking at the pictures arrive to the wrong conclusion because one has not listened to the room and his style different different to ours. BTW @mahgister your room looks like my office and labs, all kinds of things that for most of the uneducated are trash, junk and complete chaos; when in reality they are the results of very valuable experiments. BTW I have many reasons to believe that your room/system sounds celestial.
Now, if you are saying you can make an opinion in pictures about my rooms? Clearly you can, is it going to have any value from the acoustics perspective? absolutely not.
And I hope you are not suggesting to trust someone’s opinion that can’t discuss things without making fun of and degrading people, making rude and despicable comments about people with autism because they call him out on his nonsense, or anyone’s for that matter, based on a picture; over the engineers that design, including the new Munich symphony house, and tune most of the symphony houses in Europe, Japan, and Australia?
I am not afraid to say that I am ok using every tool/process possible, which includes measurements, to achieve the best sound I can out of my room and systems, without having to making the rooms look like a recording studio because it is not our style.
When I hire the sound engineers that come to accommodate my rooms, I am glad they bring measuring equipment and not cameras. So they can take a bunch of measurements, make recommendations on how to move some things, have my partner and I sit in our listening positions, we play our music while they measure all along; so after the process we chose what sounds best to us, and they finetune the speakers, subs and very few set of treatment.
Ears can’t care less on pictures; ears are blind, they do not see or look, they hear or is it listen?
I apologize for my English as it is not one of my native languages.
Being a pro and being able to spot about some problem in a system/room when looking at it , does not means that anybody can judge the S.Q. of a system from a photo...
The reason is simple : acoustic treatment and control are not ALWAYS predictible by visible cues...empty tubes of different kind, one hundred perhaps, of different size are not pretty to look at...it is the "bones"of my mechanical equalizer" though...
For example the number of acoustic devices and their precise size and location is not something COMPLETELY visually meaningful... It is related in a specific way in its tuning to some specific gear for some specific ears...
Then the fact that a pro can point to a room problem on an image is one thing but the final S.Q. result must be LISTENED TO...
Sorry...
Then if someone look to my silly room photo , in no way he can affirm that my S.Q. is pure shit because my room look silly... And it is silly room , my room is a laboratory made with discarded materials then at no cost......
Audio is not guess based on price tag, and image...
For sure some audiophile whose acoustic big room are created by pro at high cost and esthetically beautiful scream a S.Q. quality from image that will make my SMALL laboratory room pure junkyard sound...
But my room is not pure shit in S.Q... Sorry.... Appearance can help : Mike Lavigne room scream high quality sound from photo... That does not mean that my silly mad scientist room is shit even compared to him ...Way less good for sure but not shit...
How do i know? Simple because i enjoy quality music filling my room with a relatively natural timbre ... And my ratio S.Q. /price beat Mike Lavigne big.... My system value is 500 bucks... Beat me naysayers who look at photo to judge me...
Just an exemple now to indicate how it is easy to be wrong:
I used reflective metal junk device who will be judge to have "negative" effect by any pro...This is not untrue...But this is not right too...
how could they be wrong?
Because i tuned my room using some % of reflective surface from certain spot that are meaningless if you dont listen the room tuning process at the end and only look at cheap empty aluminium cauldron linked together...
I dont recommend people to use cheap cauldron to tune a room, i recommend them to use some reflective surface for positive effect in the tuning process...Do you undersatand the difference...I had ZERO budget to achieve my goal and i am very proud of that...
experienced hifi enthusiasts can look at pictures of a system setup in room and can spot issues quickly, there are elements of good and bad in room set up can be violated, but always at the cost of getting the best possible sound
not a substitute for being there, but photos can be very very informative as a lead in, and lead to numerous relevant and good suggestions or ideas of how improvements might be gotten
100% PICs are the place to start. LOOK before you speak. I see once again the cart is before the horse. Pictures tell you everything about a system. THEN you rest your mouth and ears and listen..
I just posted that on Monday, I helped a buddy after 5 years of messing around. 4 hours later he was happy after 5 years of poor SQ. 2 floor to ceiling silk curtains, 2 3 x 4ft panels, a large thick oval rug, placement and I repaired the great pair of cables he bought. I know I own the same cables and his speakers, I use the same type.
I had listened two times in 6 or 7 years to his set up.
We did everything the way I always do it, not the way he does it. BINGO! ALL from a picture and a listen 5-7 years ago..
If I couldn’t hear a problem, but I’m hearing the same complaint from the customer I should put my past experience to work, not reinvent to wheel. It’s not life or death if your off a little bit either.
After seeing ENOUGH set-ups over the years you know what tools to bring with you, to the job site.
Explain how what Mr Denney said is any different. He knows by looking... HE BETTER know by looking after all theses years.. Are there exceptions seldom.
I’m afraid instead of revealing a flaw in his thinking, you have exposed a rather limiting flaw of your own...
To much reading and not near enough doing.. 20/80 rears its head again.
20% of the people do 80% of the work the other 80% (like you two) talk about it..
Thanks once again for the professional answer and skipping the bla bla bla. Mr. Denney. You need a GOOD PR man. (This time it’s free) :-)
I’m very good at picking my nose, EVERYONE can relate to that right..:-)
"This is down to set up, something you can quickly ascertain by looking at a photo"
This is another laughable nonsense.
How in the world can anyone ascertain a setup from a picture? Really? Do pictures now position you in a room and allow you to carefully listen the room’s acoustic signature and how well the speakers are positioned relatively to the listening position?
I wander what despicable assault @ted_denney will come up with🤣 to defend this nonsense
PS: for how long one does something has relative relevance on knowledge, one can be doing something for very long and doing it wrong all along. “
I never denigrate The products mr. Denney sell, even after he mocked my old room...I only maintained that acoustic is way better than any "tweaks"...
I used myself many homemade tweaks resembling what he sell... I dont doubt that his tweaks are better than mine.... Why not?
I am alone he is not....He put money behind his tweak research not me...
I claim that no tweaks can replace acoustic treatment and control ever.... NONE..
Then he mocked my room without never giving me any argument .... i think he sense me to be a menacing truth for his products even if his product are directed to consumers who dont own a dedicated room anyway....Acoustic cannot be defeated by tweaks nor replaced by tweaks...Sorry...
He prove to me that what is important is not so much truth in audio but selling his devices first....it is understandable he is a seller ....
But i dont like to be treated that way with inunendo about my room...i put the images there to begin with i dont give a dam about what others think....many mocked my room already... But i dont accept that in a public discussion...
"This is down to set up, something you can quickly ascertain by looking at a photo"
This is another laughable nonsense.
How in the world can anyone ascertain a setup from a picture? Really? Do pictures now position you in a room and allow you to carefully listen the room’s acoustic signature and how well the speakers are positioned relatively to the listening position?
I wander what despicable assault @ted_denney will come up with🤣 to defend this nonsense
PS: for how long one does something has relative relevance on knowledge, one can be doing something for very long and doing it wrong all along.
There is nothing in common between the room acoustic where we listen Puccini
and wearing a kimono to increase our perception of the music...
Then assimilating the two is only that : a joke...
By the way my audio journey is completed i listen music not my system...
I never bought anything nor any upgrade save the basic gear i own...
I am here for some friends and advising and learning about the key problem in audio :acoustic.... And also speaking about my low cost solutions..
i can also use a COMBO of your post and any other people post, mixing them and make a cheap joke at your expanse... .
Easy...
but i dont do that ....I dont need to .... Guess why?
It is because mocking others is not the best way to keep the appearence of being wise especially if we are not so much wise to begin with....
I use a combo of these:
there are many people who view music as as a tool for evaluating their systems.
which are very much a statement of their being related to the validation process..
And …
Then pretending to know what is the real s.q. of a system without listening the acoustic seetings is meaningless...
Basically if I can get the little lady to play pretend or dress-up, and start prancing around the living room with a horned viking helmet acting out the shield-maiden role while playing Wagner, or dress-up in a Kimono when i play Madame Butterfly (but replacing the sepaku for the final scene), then THAT is also a good measure of listening success.
there are many people who view music as as a tool for evaluating their systems.
which are very much a statement of their being related to the validation process..
And …
Then pretending to know what is the real s.q. of a system without listening the acoustic seetings is meaningless...
Basically if I can get the little lady to play pretend or dress-up, and start prancing around the living room with a horned viking helmet acting out the shield-maiden role while playing Wagner, or dress-up in a Kimono when i play Madame Butterfly (but replacing the sepaku for the final scene), then THAT is also a good measure of listening success.
Anybody pretending to know how is the sound of a system exactly by contemplating image of the gear without listening to the room acoustic is deluded....
or he sell gear and upgrade...
An acoustician dont look the gear to bash it or praise it, he listen to the room....
I am only a regular guy able to experiment in my dedicated room and this is the only essential fact i learned....
Nobody can prove me wrong about that....
I already look at one million dollars bling system that seems awful because of the ROOM....mIne is 500 bucks.... I dont pretend it is better , i do pretend that price tag means way less than acoustic....
Then pretending to know what is the real s.q. of a system without listening the acoustic seetings is meaningless...
Saying that a Sansui or a McIntosh amplifier are bad or low S.Q. or the reverse without listening them in a very good acoustically controlled room is also meaningless.. Some audiophiles called this ignorance a "taste"....
But nobody could ever know what will be the s.q difference . of the gear before and after a rightfull acoustic embeddings treatment and control...
Then taste are only that : taste, and they may change....
Acoustic dont change...Why?
Because it is the way to bent the room in relation to the specific needs of the gear and speakers using your specific ears to tune the relation...
What makes them unfortunates? Everyone gets out of their purchases what they want...I rather appreciate buying preowned gear from them as well...its like new LOL!
@ted_denney👍🏿 I agree and such was my point about my system it is simply a vehicle for listening to music. Hence no system pics as I do not need validation nor ridicule.
Pretty simple....when I recognize one of the non-contributors who just spew bile or are just trolling for a fight, I ignore it. Don't need an ignore button, just read or reply.
If someone is passionate and emphatic, but knowledgeable, like an MC, I might take his post with a grain of salt. For the passionate morons, there is not enough salt in the ocean....
things in life are just things, cars, hifi gear and so on
but to me things wisely collected and used can lead to wonderful experiences, happiness -- be it for one oneself, with friends, loved ones
to me that is what matters most
There was nothing quite as magical as getting a vinyl LP with the kids.
And then at home having the kiddies say, “Dad, can you put on a big CD.” And then watching them dancing away with total abandon to it.
Probably could have used some isolation being on a wooden floor, but the ol Sota TT didn’t ever seem to care, nor did it ever miss a beat.
@jerryg123Having a good system, or having a “poor” system is not necessarily about how much money you’ve spent. There are plenty of amazing sounding systems out there in the $20-$30,000 range that beat systems in the hundred thousand dollar plus range. This is down to set up, something you can quickly ascertain by looking at a photo. I stand by my claim, much of the faux outrage is rooted in insecurity jealousy and covetous. Also, my observation has nothing to do with projecting success, or looking down on others. My observation is from the observation of an audiophile and it is directed to other audiophiles, we are presumably here to discuss stereo, not social justice issues or personal insecurities.
285 posts... I’ve been doing this for 30 years. In fact, since the days of rec audio high end. Nothing has changed, all the same arguments and ideological lines then as now ... It’s been exactly this way for three consecutive decades.
I was also there in rec.audio.high-end and @ted_denneyis absolutely right. That’s why I don’t waste time in any of A'gon's "makes no difference/yes it does/no it doesn’t/show me the blind test" debates.
It’s not that users never change their minds, but that only happens to those who take the time to truly listen and put their biases behind. I think many of us started out as cynics. Some get stuck there.
@ted_denneyThat may be, there are a great many who do not need validation by what equipment we own, the size of our house or what car we drive.
A car is just metal and rubber to me. My sound system is just that a system for listening to wonderful music. My house though some may consider large is a home for may family and it would be a home even if it were a double wide in Oklahoma.
The home and family make me the man that I am and what my station is in life. Not my stereo system.
I do not seek validation from anyone but my family and my higher power.
The march of technology forwards also seems to have a lot of steps where things get made cheaper.
There will always be cheaper and more expensive products... it’s all based on technology and the technology always moves forward although certainly the more useful older technologies will stick around and perhaps be improved as well. Like record players and tube amps. But the big advances will leave older technologies in their wake at various price points over time. Like Class D amps and digital streaming. Its all good, some newer, some older, some cheaper, some more costly. But never static...always changing....
@holmz Personally, I am always on the lookout for something new and better. Also to learn something new and useful and share it with others. Technology is always advancing...never stagnant. Its like a treasure hunt but I have had numerous hits along the way to make the journey worthwhile. I like to get it right (for me) then leave it be until there is a good reason to do something new or different. "Good sound" is a somewhat subjective thing but the fundamental parameters that define it and what it takes to attain it effectively is not
I appreciate your perspective, but do not entirely agree… The march of technology forwards also seems to have a lot of steps where things get made cheaper.
Like the first transistor was super expensive, but eventually we had a bunch of small portable radios which were portable rather than a Philco.
DACS seem to have gone through this “A really good design —> now make it more cheaply - and loose some magic” cycle a few times.
Amps are “A really good design —> now make it more efficient and more cheaply - and loose some magic” cycles.
I am usually on the hunt for better, and often older is more often fine with me.
@jerryg123perhaps but I’ve been doing this for 30 years. In fact, since the days of rec audio high end. Nothing has changed, all the same arguments and ideological lines then as now. People look for deeper meaning, but it always boils down to exactly what I just said. It’s been exactly this way for three consecutive decades. After a while, you just cut to the chase. You can’t fix a problem with flowery prose that have nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the problem.
@holmz Personally, I am always on the lookout for something new and better. Also to learn something new and useful and share it with others. Technology is always advancing...never stagnant. Its like a treasure hunt but I have had numerous hits along the way to make the journey worthwhile. I like to get it right (for me) then leave it be until there is a good reason to do something new or different. "Good sound" is a somewhat subjective thing but the fundamental parameters that define it and what it takes to attain it effectively is not.
@ted_denneyYou are egging them on now. Also coming across as an arrogant elitist.
Just my initial reaction to your post.
the mayhem they create is their hobby, not audio. The next time they’re in the throughs of yet another manufactured outrage, ask to see a picture of their system and you discover their drama is nothing more than a smoke screen to obscure the fact they have a poor system. They also tend to be jealous and covetous. It’s always the same pattern, essentially psychological and personality disorders on full display.
@mapman : I can assure you the vast majority of those people have zero intentions to buy or sell anything here. the "potential" part is close to zero. They are here for the mayhem in the forums only.
I am more prone to looking for things like a used phono stage than fuses, but there is still probably value in technical and subjective exchanges.
People will self police when there is a “do not cross this line” policy in place. It forces a “when in doubt, dont do it” mentality.
Worked in a bar in my younger college years with such a policy and they had a reputation for no BS. One fight in the couple of years I was there…it was broken up by other patrons and the two fighters were banned. I dropped in many years later, the place still feels the same, alot of friendly faces and the names of those two guys were still in the spiral notebook. There were only a handful of names listed after theirs. Amazingly, having a standard of behavior works.
Are the banned patrons evil? No but they decided the rules didnt apply….they were wrong. Things escalate without lines in the sand. Ive been guilty of raising my rhetoric on occasion with some who appear to be cultivating a personal confrontation. I would not have if there were enforced standards.
ask to see a picture of their system and you discover their triggered outrage is nothing more than a smoke screen to obscure the fact they have a poor system.
Well, maybe if you are here on a free forum you can help them out with some free advice.
@mapman : I can assure you the vast majority of those people have zero intentions to buy or sell anything here. the "potential" part is close to zero. They are here for the mayhem in the forums only.
I am sure that happens, but I don’t think that alone violates any site rules. An audiogon user gets access to forums and ability to transact. So I would assert that is just par for the course. Also if one gets caught up in the forums actually discussing hifi and music, there is perhaps a greater chance they will buy or sell something. I think that is why the forum exists.....to help plant the seeds per se.
@thynamethe mayhem they create is their hobby, not audio. The next time they’re in the throughs of yet another manufactured outrage, ask to see a picture of their system and you discover their drama is nothing more than a smoke screen to obscure the fact they have a poor system. They also tend to be jealous and covetous. It’s always the same pattern, essentially psychological and personality disorders on full display.
@mapman: I can assure you the vast majority of those people have zero intentions to buy or sell anything here. the "potential" part is close to zero. They are here for the mayhem in the forums only.
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