Why were 291 responses removed about Rap?


I do not care for rap.  It is not music.  I abhor unbridled censorship.  Why were 291 posts systematically removed,  then the post deleted by moderators?   I did have a serious reply, followed by two tamer ones. This is not about me.
834b4bb8 23fc 4a94 866a 7aa27ddd2853danvignau
simao,

By the way and unrelated to rap, but related to your posts, I have mentioned you this afternoon. In fact, you made me do it. I saw a woman with three kids, I think she was their nanny, across the street. One was in the stroller, one was maybe 7 years old, and the troublemaker might have been three, at most 4. That one was screaming, pushing, kicking, raising hell there. Temper tantrum in full swing. The woman was trying, but it was painful to watch her frustration. I thought of you and crossed the street. Long story short, in about 20-30 seconds, the girl was quiet and ready to follow wherever they were to go. The woman called me an angel and was thanking me. I told her "Thank the guy on the Internet, he made me do it."
Simao,
 Nothing you can do about getting old, it happens to everyone. Being called "Boomer "or an "old white guy" is not an insult to me. Makes the one saying it look small, but not insuling at all. Sticks and Stones and all that.

I think you are wrong about us being stuck in the past musically, lots of eclectic smart people on the site. I learn a lot from them.

Tried to like Rap. I enjoyed the beats that are now used in Electronica, but just never personaly enjoyed the music. I became crazy about Jazz.

Enjoy what you enjoy!






@acman3 "enjoy what you enjoy" -- completely agreed. Except forum members in the demographic contingent in question vocally and insistently refused to allow that to happen, consistently denigrating the genre through bigotry, ignorance, and prejudice. 


I've learned much about music from person's here, but I wasn't prepared for the sheer volume of fear and misunderstanding and prejudice. 
@glupson. Cool story! I guess there's some use for me on this thread. 
As I am writing this, I hear some rap rhythm coming from distant iPhone speakers. If I am allowed to call it rap as I exist in the grey zone of that definition.
"If someone is 21 years old, and in a holy hell on the West Side of Chicago, this old man can clue him on the s--t that happened before he ever even thought about being born..."

East Side, West Side, somewhere there...

Paper Lace - The Night Chicago Died (lyrics) - YouTube

That was right on time Glupson.

Once upon a time (back in the ice age) I was a young man, and I did what young men do; got a job, bought a car, and found an apartment.

It's quite apparent to me, that so many young men can't do what I did. No young man want's to be sleeping on mom's couch, or if lucky, a spare bedroom.

More and more, opportunities for jobs have vanished, and they have been replaced by the criminal opportunities that culminate in destruction; that's what the Rappers Rap about.

The last time I was in the hospital, they brought a young man into my room who had been shot up with an AK47. It was touch and go, but the miracle workers pulled him through, and before long he had a string of lady visitors.

What shocked me, was the philosophical attitude he took about getting shot up; wasn't even bent on revenge, just wanted to get back to work. (draw your own conclusions as to what his job was)



That was his reality, and there is no way under the Sun he would have chosen that reality had other opportunities been available. Things are so bad in some places, that if I was in his shoes, I might make the same career choice.
Although I'm a geezer (that's right, I geeze...so what?), when I want to dance all night in a sweaty bar with my shirt off I prefer rap, or at least EDM...don't you?
Vile is an understatement. Its not about racism , Hate is a strong word and nobody wants to hate anything , but African Americans are well disliked around the world even africa its well documented , I had a Nigerian friend that was proud to be Nigerian but couldn't stand african Americans I was still young at the time and I couldn't stand them for the same reason so did that make me racist. Many blacks dont want to earn the respect other creeds have had to earn they just demand it, the music is poison it really is unless your well educated and can listen to it and keep it to a recreational zone in your brain , the problem is this is all some kids know. and this will be removed like other posts and should not, I didn't say anything racist. 
@ngiordano --
Vile is an understatement. Its not about racism , Hate is a strong word and nobody wants to hate anything , but African Americans are well disliked around the world even africa its well documented , I had a Nigerian friend that was proud to be Nigerian but couldn't stand african Americans I was still young at the time and I couldn't stand them for the same reason so did that make me racist. Many blacks dont want to earn the respect other creeds have had to earn they just demand it, the music is poison it really is unless your well educated and can listen to it and keep it to a recreational zone in your brain , the problem is this is all some kids know. and this will be removed like other posts and should not, I didn't say anything racist.




wow. An openly, unabashedly racist, ignorant, and sad post. I’d flag this but instead I’ve screenshoted it and can use it as an example in other forums of how the internet let’s every little bigot feel comfortable espousing their bigotry from behind the safety of their online anonymity.

Does anyone on this forum want to jump to this guy’s defense?

Also, please keep his post up - let it stand if he’s so confident in his views.






@ngiordano I’m actually shocked that you took the time to post something so patently stupid. There are moments in life where we must all take stock of our lives and ask ourselves some tough questions. You have a long list and I hope you will be honest with yourself when doing so and make a change. Today.

Your rhetoric isnt cute or funny in the least. I hold out hope for you but I don’t have high expectations in your case. Is there a moment each day where you make the concious decision to hate or is it so deep within you that don’t even recognize its there? Do you sit home alone and find some perverse brand of joy with your thoughts and beliefs? The silver lining would be that you are alone. The scary part would be that you have found a like-minded partner to share and exchange your ignorance with each day. Fingers crossed that one or both of you are sterile.

Ngiordano, you didn't tell us anything about your ethnicity, you might belong to the one I find most vile, the one that's hated in many places.

I don't think your post should be removed, it serves as a display of the type of person that should by analyzed by a psychiatrist.


@ngiordano Your post is straight-up, abhorrent racism with a capital ‘R’. No doubt you surveyed a statistically significant portion of the world’s population in the development your deep insights? To believe for one second that you can stereotype millions of people based on their ethnicity - how bigoted do you have to be? Answer: very bigoted. You’re a sad and repellent example of how low some members of our species can stoop. The only good news is that your day, like that of the dinosaur, is slowly but most decidedly and inexorably passing. Can’t happen soon enough for me.
Well, at least we made it to a combined 500
Ngiordano is likely to be a little under the radar for a while. Even skinheads and klansmen are shaking their heads in disbelief that he went there….on an audio forum where reasonable people were bantering about the merits, or lack thereof, of rap music. Then he went nuclear, completely obliterating the clever back and forth debate. Proof that a single celled organism with a keyboard and an internet connection can get their message out there. 

I must say though that I am fascinated and curious as to the cause-effect, nature-nurture circumstances that shaped this person.
I thought I would quote the ignorant post here so that @ngiordano cant delete the post and attempt to fade into the Audiogon scenery for a while. His post should live in perpetuity.

Vile is an understatement. Its not about racism , Hate is a strong word and nobody wants to hate anything , but African Americans are well disliked around the world even africa its well documented , I had a Nigerian friend that was proud to be Nigerian but couldn't stand african Americans I was still young at the time and I couldn't stand them for the same reason so did that make me racist. Many blacks dont want to earn the respect other creeds have had to earn they just demand it, the music is poison it really is unless your well educated and can listen to it and keep it to a recreational zone in your brain , the problem is this is all some kids know. and this will be removed like other posts and should not, I didn't say anything racist.

Disgusting.
Racism and a lack of self-awareness go hand-in-hand, and typically mirror one another in terms of extremity.
To add to my earlier list, it doesn’t scare me to have a conversation with someone like this but it does scare me that he probably voted in the last election and will do so again in the future.
@ghasley  I too wonder what set of circumstances produced ngiordano’s toxic and hate-filled take. I am so encouraged to see my children being more tolerant, more inclusive and less divisive than my own generation. Part of that is their upbringing in a multiracial household, and part of it is that the times are changing. My grandmother was a racist. My children are not. There’s hope in that.
@ngiordano    
“I had a Nigerian friend...”

Kind of sums it all up...

Love when people claim to have understanding  about the plight of an entire group of people, because they had a friend... 

“I had a Chinese friend, a Jewish friend, a Gay friend, a Black friend, a (fill in the blank) friend...” Congratulations! That’s mighty big of you.

Suspect, you might just be “well disliked” here.
@wolf_garcia Do you qualify for this shirt? I wear it at just about every gig my bands play.

https://www.amazon.com/T-Shirt-Electronic-Dance-Music-Fathers/dp/B07NCY1P12http://
And here comes the mob.  Disgusting behavior, then you wonder why we have racism and nobody wants to sit down and have real meaningful conversations.  How about reaching out to your fellow Americans and find out why they are racist, possibly even change their views. Instead you shut the door in their faces and then you wonder why they pass their racism on to the next generation.   It real makes you know better than them.  Let's see this guy shared his views and Instead of trying to help him get past his racism you wished death on him and God knows what else.  It real is Discussing how you all responded, maybe this is the reason for separation in this country.  It won't get better until we all get better.   Some mentioned voting, last I checked its a free country.  Maybe it's just me thinking we can have a better world. 
@pcc67 -- Okay, go ahead and reach out to this guy and open the door and ask him why he's racist - even though he insists he's not. Please help him IF you disagree with what he said.


No one wished death on him (although sterility was mentioned); people simply responded with disgust and incredulity at his undeniably bigoted and ignorant viewpoint.


Come off it - you really think he's going to sit down and allow his views to be changed by members of an online forum? Please.


Stop playing the victim card and saying that righteous responses to degrading rhetoric constitutes mob behavior. And are you really suggesting that racist behavior is caused by people calling out racist behavior? Seriously? What other racist playbook tropes do you want to fulfill?
I don't believe in attacking people with hate.  Maybe I just believe there possibly is good in all of us.  I don't agree with his message or like it.   But are we to take all racist behind the barn and shoot them.  We're going to need a big hole.  It's all around and it needs to be discussed.   Violence only invokes more Violence.   There is no white, black, yellow ...etc., race.  We are all part of the human race.  I think many people are thought to hate, I personally choose not to.  

The only good news is that your day, like that of the dinosaur, is slowly but most decidedly and inexorably passing. Can’t happen soon enough for me.
(This is what I was speaking of).

So we going to sit here and do nothing and wait out the racist?  That's going to take maybe a few more centuries.   I chose to work it out, nope can't fix all but maybe a few.  Or I can just get pissed at the other side and waste my energy ranting.  I did not say don't call out racist, I do.  I simply stated there is no need to fuel the flames with more hatred, I think there's plenty out there already.  Maybe this country needs a playbook, its apparent the one we have now is only making things worse.  Back to subject, yes I do enjoy some rap and have a few cds.  
A lot of people, especially Dunnung-Kreuger afflicted racists, misogynists, and homophobes, do not realize that their comments and thoughts about the objects of their derision, are simply a grasping at straws for anyone to who feel superior.  If you are really so stupid that you must compare yourself to people who differ from you, it means that your imagined superiority over the people maligned is only a feeble attempt to find someone, anyone, stupid enough to believe you when you act as if you are not actually a blithering idiot.  Normal folks:  Just imagine being so incredibly dumb that you can only compare yourself to the paranoid, imaginary creations of other total idiots like you..
@pcc67 - and that's your fallacy: equating angry reactions to racism with the racism itself. Those two are not the same at all. If I react angrily to anti-Semitism and call out anti-Semites for what they are, am I "attacking people with hate"?


Seriously?

And yes, there are different races with different identities. Please don't use the "I don't see color" copout here. It's all fine and good to say "We're all part of the human race" -- as long as your race isn't being labeled as disliked around the world and not able to "earn the respect."


Still waiting for you to call out his views as the vile bigotry they are.



Simoa,
Maybe you missed it. I did call him a racist, see below.  I do not share his views and yes I think his views are vile bigotry.  I don't like it.  

Instead of trying to help him get past his racism you wished death on him.

I think maybe I have dealt with it so long I don't let it anger me like it used to.  I remember when people used to stare at my wife and I when we walked by.  I even remember hearing mumbling behind us as we pasted.  Back the I wanted to punch all of them.  Well eventually I ignored and seems like world is more excepting.   Secondly I really don't care what others think, we are husband and wife.  I do realize there is racism out there but we choose to live our life.  Racism comes in all colors as we have witnessed, but so does ignorance.  

@ simao1

based on your parameters, there ain’t much music out there in any genre that could meet them

Absolutely not true. All of the music in the following genres and subgenres meet my criteria.

The 3 main genres of music I listen to are: prog, classical, and jazz. But within each of those, are many subgenres.

Prog has: avant-prog, technical-metal, zeuhl, Canterbury, Krautrock, prog-metal, symphonic prog, prog-folk, and others. None of these subgenres sound like any of the others.

Jazz: fusion, chamber jazz, M-Base, avant-garde, free jazz, ’spiritual’ jazz, jazz-metal, post bop. Again, there is a bit of overlap between some of these subgenres, but overall, they are very different sounding.

Classical: I tend to listen almost exclusively to music that has been composed in the 2nd half of the 20th century up through the current era. This music tends to be very ’thorny’ sounding, sometimes described as ’difficult’. Not exactly easy listening. Will never be mistaken for Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc.

Believe me, it is much harder keeping up with all the great new music being released in these subgenres on a constant basis, than it is finding enough music to listen to.

For me, I don’t like rap, for the same reasons I don’t like to pop, country, mainstream rock, or pretty much any other form of popular music; they are simple, repetitive, do not display any real proficiency on musical instrument, etc. It has zero to do with racial issues.

simonmoon
110,  I don't have any complaints against your post.  There is nothing racial about it.
@simonmoon I was being half-sarcastic in my reply; in fact, I feel the same way about a lot of music as you. I embrace complexity and eschew bubble-gum formula bs with no substance.


I also dive into prog, classical, and jazz - deeply and with pleasure for the latter two.


And yeah, nothing in your post was racial at all. It was simply a music preference. I mean, I feel comfortable in saying that most of the Native American tribal singing I hear from various tribes just doesn't work for me musically.
@pcc67

I don't believe in attacking people with hate. Maybe I just believe there possibly is good in all of us. I don't agree with his message or like it.  But are we to take all racist behind the barn and shoot them. We're going to need a big hole. It's all around and it needs to be discussed.  Violence only invokes more Violence.  There is no white, black, yellow ...etc., race. We are all part of the human race. I think many people are thought to hate, I personally choose not to.  

The only good news is that your day, like that of the dinosaur, is slowly but most decidedly and inexorably passing. Can’t happen soon enough for me.
(This is what I was speaking of).

So we going to sit here and do nothing and wait out the racist? That's going to take maybe a few more centuries.  I chose to work it out, nope can't fix all but maybe a few. Or I can just get pissed at the other side and waste my energy ranting. I did not say don't call out racist, I do. I simply stated there is no need to fuel the flames with more hatred, I think there's plenty out there already. Maybe this country needs a playbook, its apparent the one we have now is only making things worse. Back to subject, yes I do enjoy some rap and have a few cds.  

A couple of points:

1) I'm more than willing to discuss someone's misguided racist beliefs with them if they show the slightest sincerity in wanting to have that conversation. I've done so many times. But I don't believe in banging my head against a wall of irrational and self-serving beliefs because kum-ba-ya. :)  (That's a joke - I am not accusing you of this.) I have yet to see ngiordano express any desire for such a conversation. 

2) Casting the people calling out racism as "haters" is...in my view kinda non-credible. 

3) I do believe that everyone has the potential for good in them (well, except for sociopaths and people suffering from a variety of personality disorders, based on my experiences with several of each), but some do a really good job of burying that potential. A really outstanding job. 

3) My sympathies are overwhelmingly with those who suffer the pervasive effects of racism, and not with the people who get called on their racism. The people who have been murdered, received second-rate health care, been shortchanged, been subject to segregated justice, been deprived, and been denied the same things that for a long time the ruling race (including myself) has been handed on a platter. 

4) My statement that you quote above was directed at the racism of ngiordano and others like him - I apologize for not making that clearer.  I would never advocate for "taking all racists our behind the barn and shooting them." I hope and expect that racism will go the way of the dinosaur, both because it's an abhorrent vestige of the past and because we have other enormous challenges ahead of us if we plan to survive as a species.  Based on a growing social awareness of race-related issues in this country, there is reason for hope. 

5) RE: your question: "So are we going to sit here and do nothing and wait out the racist?"  No.  People been working on this one way or another for several hundred years. History tells us that it takes generations to change society. Take for example the civil rights movement of the '60s and the current attempts at voter suppression. 

6) I strongly believe that the best way forward is to examine and counter both my own racist beliefs and those of others. I don't sit here passively and wait for time to pass. 

I hope this have given you a better understanding of my perspective. I can see that you too are concerned about bigotry and that you and I differ on how to confront it, and how to think about those who do.  I myself am grateful for them. 
but African Americans are well disliked around the world even africa its well documented


So isn’t that just perhaps a more organic way of saying racism does exist?  Well duh!

That settles that. On a hifi forum nonetheless. Whoda thunkit?

I'm really anticipating his sharing of this "well-documented" evidence, though I don't think my school server will allow access to Aryan Nation websites.
ggoggin,

I'm sure we can agree on many things and of course have a few things we may disagree with but possibly find a middle ground.   
Apparently ngiordano did drop a bomb and walk away pissing many off and not returning to explain his nastiness.   Maybe he will or possibly he lite a fire and ran for the hills cowardly, I have no idea.  I do not support his stance and I disagree with the broad brush approach he took.  I do believe racism comes in many colors.  
As far as voter suppression.  I served over 20 plus yrs and feel every person has the right to vote and no one vote is more important than the other.  I do believe that both parties should have confidence in the voting system and maybe its time for an upgrade to ensure integrity.  No one should ever feel cheated.  As to what we should do, not totally sure but we should work on something to make everyone feel their vote counted.  I don't believe in ignoring problems and we should find away to upgrade our current system. 
Story. Last year my wife and I went to vote.  We step up to the person who was checking names and I went to hand her my license like I have for the last 26 yrs because it was always required and the lady said I don't need that.  As I pointed to our names I notice someone with the same last name one street over.  I said I been here 26 yrs I know all my neighbors and no one has same last name as me.  She said don't worry.  So I moved on.  True story. 

Simao

I don't think it's documentated anywhere.  And if it was, where is the link.  It's nonsense.   No facts
pcc67, I like your posts and your attitude. The human condition is messy; always has been and always will be. The politicization and weaponization of race threatens to do much damage to our humanity just as overt racism does. Everyone, and I mean everyone has some degree of racism in his psychological fiber. (“OH MY GOD, NOT ME!”....I can hear the reactions to this comment).  It is human to feel more comfortable with the familiar. Psychologists refer to it as “unintentional racism” or “implicit bias”. Unfortunately, some do to the point of hatred.  It is how we process that reality, how we act and how we treat our fellow human beings that matters and determines whether or not we are a true bigot. This is the reason that you are correct in your approach and with your attitude.

As far as I am concerned it is often the case that those who are most eager to find racism around every corner and giddy to vociferously call it out without a more complete understanding of the person who is the subject of their “outrage”, not to mention without at least some self-scrutiny, turn out to be the most racist of all.

Audioguy, deprived people over a period of time, become depraved people. When generation after generation of a race is denied opportunities, a "subculture" materializes that makes it's own rules.

I know it's impossible for you to comprehend how something that happened 200 years ago is relevant to someone who is 21 years old today, but if we traced our individual lineage back 200 years, and discovered we were descended from kings and queens, we would be rich because all that wealth that was accumulated 200 years ago would have come down the line, and we would probably be living in a great mansion, although we never worked a day in our life.

On the other hand, if we were descended from slaves who were even denied the 40 acres and a mule they were promised, and set free in a land that even denied them employment because of the color of their skin, the only thing they passed down the line was poverty; 200 years of it.

In regard to the "subculture" of profanity that has materialized, older African Americans don't understand that any more than you do; however, the more deprived people become, the more depraved they become, and that rule of sociology applies to White people as well.
I cannot agree moore than with the posts of  pcc67 and  frogman

A little common sense help a lot...

 Thanks...
The Harvard Implicit Bias tests. Fun and disconcerting methods to determine the shape of your biases.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.htmlhttp://

Audioguy, that's what you get from people who are descendants of slaves that were forbidden to learn how to read or write; they learned how to cuss from one another, and they do it well.

According to Frogman, a little racism is OK. Is it OK for politicians of both parties to belong to the KKK?


This is a free country, you can be as racist as you like, but when people are denied the ability to earn a living because of their color, that's a hoss of another color.

When the only opportunity available is "dope dealer", that's a hoss of another color.
One thing I know for sure, it is like talking to a stone to try to reason with a bigot. And the so called religious ignoring the Golden Rule!
The ultimate truth that all are created equal. There is only one race and other differences are superficial and unimportant.
”if you prick me do I not bleed?”.
Orpheus10, I said no such thing.  I did not address you and I expect an apology. Please keep me out of your twisted logic.
orpheous10  Guess what!  By saying that slaves learned to curse from each other, for whatever reason you use to try to justify with your faux concern, you are expreaasing an inherent racist bias.  Just how could a slave from another culture pick up vulgarities from each other, when these words are in English, not Swahili, etc.  I am not condemning you for this, but simply pointing out how you can improve your culturally induced thought patterns.
My wife lived in the getto with her daughter.  Neither one does drugs.  She never got any assistance.  When I said why didn't you get food stamps or any type of aid she actually got mad at me for suggesting it.  She said what kind of example is that for my daughter.  My wife worked in a factory then looked for other opportunities and got office work.  This was long before we met.   Her daughter graduates this yr from an ivy league college and has multiple offers high 6 figures.   Don't bring up race to her or how she did it, she will tell you stay away from the idiots, don't do drugs and study hard.   She is a bit cocky when asked because she thinks your stupid for not understanding.   She paid her own school and had scholarships(This part was due to me, when she demanded we pay college.   I said I'm not paying and you figure it out)  she did figure it out and is much stronger for it.  I think people should earn and be responsible.   That's just me and you can disagree.  Just another story.  
Question?   Who decides who gets the 40 acres and mansions.   Plus if everyone is rich who is supposed to work.   I do agree some people are lucky and have opportunities the rest of us don't have.  Some of us make our own opportunities with hard work.  Some are given it.  Not everyone is fortunate.   Should we get into why there is no opportunities in some areas.  If I owned a big company I would not place it in a community that might burn down my business.  Maybe we should look at our leadership and ask them why they failed us.  Were is the millions sent from government to help.  Why are these government officials not held to higher standards?  In the military you get demoted for lack of performance.   But nothing happens with government officials.   Here's an idea let's vote in another pay raise.  I'm sure they will be at the table for that.  We are tax payers and should demand more from the people we put in office. I do agree something needs to be done in these communities to promote opportunities.  Most powerful country on the world and we have poverty.   Doesn't make sense.   As you can see there's lots to sit at the table and discuss.   
I’m sure you are very proud of your daughter.  Thanks for sharing.
It's my stepdaughter.   I had to break her from here racial out calling.  Everything was racist to her.  I think she got it from the school system.   Back then she called me a racist because we disagreed, her mother looked at here like what planet you from dumbie.  I had to straighten out that stupidity.  School teaches if you don't like what someone says just call them a racist and shut them down.  Now she has her own mind and takes responsibility for herself.  I'm extremely proud of her and we are very very close.   That wasn't the case before.  She has never met her father.  That's fine I take that responsibility, I'm there for any support and she knows it.  Yeah I believe having parents is important.  
"In the Marxist tradition, Louis Althusser observed that 'individuals are always-already subjects' within an ideological structure before they perceive themselves as such—indeed, even before birth."

Everyone of trapped, whether they know it or not.
@orpheus10 and others. Be still your beating hearts over profanity. I mean, if you listened to music that wasn't produced last century, you'll find out that profanity is everywhere in indie, pop and rock music. I guess the "older generation" of any color (and by older, like how old do you mean? Like people in their 70s and 80s? Can they still chew solid food?) finds their sensibilities jarred by profanity.


Based on your previous statements, can I assume the white artists who swear in their songs are also "depraved"?  And why are you assuming every black rap artist cones from some apocryphal ghetto? Seriously. What kind of bigoted stereotype is that? 
According to Frogman, a little racism is OK.
What a complete distortion of an important point....

do you know how to read the intention and CLEAR point of someone?

Thinking is NOT preaching.....