Sabai, you have things all wrong. I have a military electronics background as well, can't you read? If you believe Jack Bybee's products are not controversial you must be living in a cave somewhere. I can certainly understand why he would not wish to enter into discussions here, if you get my drift. I do not defer to Jack Bybee on quantum mechanics, in fact Jack's Quantum Mechanics education is from 50 years ago.
For someone who pushes connecting cables in series and quantum products to be so closed-minded and self-satisfied is just bizarre. As a vendor of high standing on this forum for many years, don't you think I have a right to post here and express my opinions and ideas - just like you? There is no prohibition against vendors, reviewers, dealers, audio insiders, manufacturers. It is an open forum. BTW The Mind Lamp is not an audio product. You should not feel too Threatened by it, it's only a lamp. |
That's weird. According to the poll over on the Soundstage/Imaging thread currently underway on A-gon, most respondees minimize or dismiss Holographic Sound, putting soundstage/imaging last or close to last on the list of priorities. Just as I suspected.
|
Sabai wrote,
"Jack Bybee's products are "controversial"? And I "must be living in a cave somewhere"? Man, you're what we used to call in the 1950s "a phony". I have upwards of 20 Bybee products in my system. Let me repeat in special English for those who may be "challenged": You have NO idea what you're talking about. My BS meter just had the needle go haywire with your name written all over it."
Your anger has blinded your reading comprehension, again. I said Bybee's products were controversial, not ineffective. Can I suggest taking a stress tab or cold shower, whatever? |
Sabai wrote,
"You have put this very well when you state, "Not change the subject, obfuscate, or go on the attack of the questioner." Of course, you must be talking about Geoffkait who is the most obvious changer of subjects and the most obvious obsfuscater and the most obvious attacker in this discussion."
Am I really that obvious? All this time I thought I was being subtle. I must be losing my touch.
" ...go on the attack of the questioner." That's priceless!
"Nothing is written unless I say it is written". ~ Lawrence of Arabia |
Sabai, it is actually you who have made me the center of discussion, not I. Your last 15 posts have all been directed at your humble scribe. If you have nothing more significant to add to this thread I suggest you either bow out gracefully or change your attitude. Your anger and frustration have gotten the better of you, I'm afraid.
Getting back to the subject of Holographic Sound, has anyone found absolute polarity to be a factor in achieving a high level of Holographic Sound? Since there are no standards for polarity, how can we be sure our system is not out of absolute polarity or Phase, if you will? |
Sabai wrote,
"This is also my view. I have been upset in this thread because of the attempt to hijack this thread by Geoffkait. Geoffkait is like the cuckoo bird that takes over the nest of other birds to lay their eggs. I will not allow this cuckoo bird to get away with it'"
Uh, kinda too late for that. You job now is damage control. Good luck with that.
You do have a penchant for laying eggs, I will say that.
~ Tootles |
Sabai wrote,
"Geoffkait,
I have put you on the spot and you now choose to sidestep the issue of Bybee products by redirecting the discussion about this specific issue that I brought up in my post to a discussion of frustration and anger. How clever. If you were a "humble scribe" you would not be asking ANYONE to "bow out" of any discussion. You have declared that you have the right to say anything you want. But this apparently only applies to you because others who may be angry or frustrated do not have the right to express their anger and frustration. They must "bow out". In effect, you are now the self-declared moderator of this discussion and you are making the rules about who can stay and who cannot. OF course, you get to stay. Your declaration of humility is obviously a false declaration."
No, it is actually you and Bryon who are attempting to act as moderators. Your last 20 posts, at least, are testimate to that. Bryon has not contributed one iota to this thread, other than his usual long winded personal attacks.
"My frustration may have got the better of you but it has certainly not got the better of me. It is very direct and to the point. And who are you, in all your false humility, to ask anyone to bow out of this discussion, let alone the person whom initiated this thread? If anyone should bow out it is clearly you. And you can do so graciously or not for all I care."
More anger and frustration.
"May I reiterate something that Bryoncunningham has said very eloquently on more than one occasion. You refuse to answer my questions directly and interpose another topic to redirect the discussion. To wit, who is more qualified to comment on Bybee products? The guy who has 20 of them in his system or the vendor who refuses to divulge how many Bybee products he has in his own system while pontificating about them with authority? How many Bybee products do you have in your system? Will you answer the question directly or will you invite me to bow out of this discussion?
Huh?! If you don't realize that Bybee products are controversial I can't help you. Let me give you a hint, though: quantum physics. I have conversed with Jack Bybee at some length on the subject of Quantum Physics. Have you?
I have no Bybee products. I believe that brings us up to date on the question and answer thing. |
Mapman wrote,
"Is sixty dollars cheap for something tbat may not do anything?"
There are no guarantees in life. Well, actually that's not really true. I guarantee all my products, even the Teleportation Tweak. Happy, now? Rhetorical Question. Of course you're not happy. Lol |
Mapman wrote,
"ALso, I believe that this services the brand identity of his business entity, Machina Dyamica. Assuming this, then I should probably not hold out any hope that anything will change, as long as the company is successful and reaching its target market (rich guys who do not know what else to do with their money to get better sound perhaps)."
Actually, the target market is not what you assume at all, i.e., rich audiophiles who don't know what else to do with their money. Almost all of my products sell for 60 dollars or less. You must be coming down with the same affliction as Sabai and Bryon : shoot first and ask questions later. If you wish to attack rich audiophiles you might consider going after the guy with 20 Bybees instead of stalking me. Lol |
Mapman wrote,
"Geoff, yes the bybees are expensivd but my guess is they are at least more likely to do something."
Is that a hunch, like your hunch that we might have migrated here from Mars? |
Sabai and Mapman, suggested reading:
"Nothing succeeds like success."
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic."
Sabai, you're making me blush. I didn't realize I have so many positive feedbacks. Is that a record? Lol. Do you think it would be fair to say all of bellyaching and whining and by infuriated mossback neophobes is actually good for sales? Perhaps nobody reads your screeds....That's a shame. Lol
Mapman, I'm giving serious consideration to promoting you to Associate Stalker. Keep up the good work. And welcome aboard. |
Sabai wrote,
"Geoffkait,
After your failed attempt to convince us that Kal Rubinson of Stereophile does not believe in holographic sound, may I reiterate:
Could you please give us the details regarding who "in the industry" minimizes the importance of holographic sound and their reasons for doing so -- and where they have actually stated this? And could you please give us the details regarding who "in the industry" actually denies the existence of holographic sound and where they have actually stated this?"
You left out the part where I said "...or believe that soundstage is artificial."
Here are a few of Kal's many statements/opinions regarding stereo imaging and soundstage. Enjoy.
"You can think and prefer what ever you like, of course. And, yes, it is fairly demanding. However, the accurate reproduction of a performance in a real space simply requires more than 2 channels/speakers. (See Floyd Toole's new book for lots of discussion.)
It is unfortunate that you, and many others, have not had the opportunity to hear what is possible with a proper multichannel music system. I believe that some of the problem is that most high-end vendors are equally in denial."
Kal
"The sound reflections accomplished with stereo speakers may be somewhat satisfying but they are not a reproduction of the original performance space and, notably, they are the same for every recording you play."
Kal
"With 2 channel stereo playing music the entire room is filled with ambiance in front of the orchestral shell extending to the directly in front of my sitting position. In other words my entire room is alive with sound, the performers up on the stage and the ambiance everywhere else. With multi-channel the center channel and the rears speakers suck out the ambiance on the sides of my room. Since I don't like sound coming from the rear anyway I tried putting the rear speakers on the sides of the room but that didn't work either. I short no where could I put 5 speakers that would even come close to the sonic realism of what 2 floor standing full range speakers can do."
That may be your perception and your preference but it is not realism. In any real-world live performance the ambiance comes from all directions. Folding it all to the front and relying on the spurious and inflexible reflections of your rooms ambient contributions is artificial. As for splitting a discrete center to the L/R speakers, that, too, creates shifts and cancellations that result in a center fill that is insubstantial compared to three across.
Of course, as ever, for what it is, de gustibus non est disputandem."
Kal |
Kal wrote,
"The sound reflections accomplished with stereo speakers may be somewhat satisfying but they are not a reproduction of the original performance space and, notably, they are the same for every recording you play."
Clearly he doesn't believe the ambient information of the venue is embedded in the recording. He believes the reflected sound in the room is *solely* responsible for the spatial information, I.e. holographic sound. By this logic if one treats the room acoustically, to minimize reflections, there would be practically no holographic image left at all. |
Mapman wrote,
"Here's an interesting gadget that might actually work as best I can tell and perhaps even help holography:
Harmonizer (by SteinMusic)
Might even have some quantum principles in its design.
Dunno.
Any insights?
Opinions are fine. Scientific principles that I might understand is better.
Not cheap though."
I find the SteinMusic Harmonizer fascinating. |
Mapman wrote,
"Surprizingly enough (at least to me at first) I've found that this even works for mono recordings, at least in some cases. It works best for me with either pair of my OHM Walsh omnis. Good mono recordings (remastered mono Muddy Waters for example) have a three dimensional ambiance to the point where sometimes I cannot tell for certain if it is a mono or stereo recording just by listening. Its an amazing thing!"
Gosh, you can be quite the provocateur.
:-) |
Let's visit with the SteinMusic Harmonizer a little while. I have no commercial interest in this product. Apparently this device does for Holographic Sound what Carter's Little Liver Pills does for liver. Thanks to Mapman for the shout out for the Harmonizer.
SteinMusic Harmonizer review in Positive Feedback Online:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue59/harmonizer.htm
Excerpt from the Review:
"Enter German physicist, engineer, and audiophile Holger Stein. He discovers that air vibrates at certain frequencies and, in the presence of those vibrations, becomes more compliant. If air is more compliant, then sound waves have an easier path to your ears. Enter the SteinMusic Harmonizers... elegant boxes sold in pairs that generate vibrations that make the air more transmissive of music in all its complexities.
Holger Stein has discovered the "missing link" to producing the musical event in your home. Through his devices, you see the performance with your ears with repeatable, adjustable, scientific certainty for the first time. Welcome to the future my friends!
While a few other reviewers have tried the Stein gear, none have assembled a state-of-the-art system which was truly great to begin with. Referred to me by none other than the 'Dean of Audio' himself, Jack Bybee, I felt duty bound to give it a try, though I remained skeptical until I heard the first few notes.
There is now a spot on the carpet where my jaw hit the ground." |
Sabai wrote,
"Regarding the Steinmusic Harmonizer review, it is interesting that the "controversial Jack Bybee" is not referred to as "controversial" but in glowing terms as "the 'Dean of Audio' himself, Jack Bybee...""
Uh, I'm pretty controversial means there are two opposing views. I'm also pretty sure that those who actually try the Bybee products are on the Pro Side, and would, of course, support him. And those who haven't tried the Bybees, who are simply reacting to the word "quantum" or its size, whatever, are on the Against Side. You know the type. :-) |
Mapman wrote,
"Let's assume the harmonizer has a clear positive effect..."
That's probably a wise assumption, you know, judging from all the rave reviews and testimonials floating around.
"... and the price was not an issue."
Take your choice, inexpensive tweaks you suspect probably don't work because they don't cost enough or tweaks you suspect probably do work because they're so expensive. :-)
"...I still would probably not by it."
I betting you're right.
"Its just me but I would not want to have to depend on such a device in order to enjoy my music. To me, it would be analogous to needing a respirator to breathe or some kind of drug in order to enjoy something. I would not want that."
Oh, boy, here we go again with the drug addict analogy. I didn't see that coming! :-)
"But hey, maybe it transports one into a new dimension of sound that is just in a new league of some sort. Maybe I would change my mind....."
Dr. Miles J. Bennell: Listen to me! Please listen! If you don't, if you won't, if you fail to understand, then the same incredible terror that's menacing me WILL STRIKE AT YOU! - Invasion of the Body Snatchers
:-) |
Regarding Holographic Sound and Soundstage and all that jazz, I'm afraid things are worse than we thought. Much worse. To get an idea how much the room influences the sound, dictates the sound, how much distortion is produced by comb filter effects, map out the room with a test tone and handy SPL meter some time. You'll find the sound pressure varies dramatically all around the room, with a great many peaks 6dB or higher than the average pressure in the room. These peaks will be observed on room walls, the floor, buildup in room corners and in the 3D Space of the room. The peaks can be produced by slap echo, first reflections, standing waves, secondary reflections and others. All of these peaks, many of which are *louder* than the speakers, interfere with the pure signal of the speakers, obviously. What this means is that no matter how much effort is spent to produce a pure signal out of the speakers, all will be lost between the speakers and the listeners ears. |
Sabai wrote,
"Geoffkait,
You stated, "What this means is that no matter how much effort is spent to produce a pure signal out of the speakers, all will be lost between the speakers and the listeners ears." Of course, anyone who as actual ears and not theoretical ears knows this it total nonsense."
Although I'm a theoretical physicist by education I have actually measured the acoustic anomalies in the room. So, I'm speaking from experience, not theory. No matter how many Bybees you have in your system you will only get so far, because of the room anomalies. But I can certainly understand your attitude, that you would rather rest on your laurels and brag about your Bybees. Heh heh. Nice stalking with you. |
Csontos wrote,
"Yes Geoff, the sun definitely does shine. But is it shiny? Looks like it is."
Good milk comes from contented cows. :-) |
Mapman wrote,
"I'd rather spend my time and money trying something for a reason other than because someone else said to or that it is good. I advise my kids to be their own person and do what is right, not what someone else does or tells you to do. GOtta walk the walk and not just talk the talk, especially when it comes to raising kids."
Good luck in your quest to protect gullible audiophiles (and apparently children) from those bad bad tweak manufacturers, the evil doers, the ones who are trying to control their minds. Have you seen any suspicious looking people lurking outside your kids' school, presumably to sell them esoteric tweaks? "Here kiddies, wanna buy some quantum chips?" Just Say No. Ha ha ha! |
Note to self: Remind Sabai that Bybees are controversial. |
Sabai, you have completely avoided the discussion and while I can appreciate your angst and frustration with respect to the subject of holographic sound and in particular the very expensive devices like the SteinMusic Harmonizer and the Schumann Frequency Generator that you own (yes, I know - they're not YOURS, they are someone else's! LOL ) you do not OWN the subject of holographic sound nor are you the final arbiter of holographic sound or the Laws of Science you apparently wish to be.
~ tootles |
Sabai wrote,
"Taunting is what Geoffkait does best here, as we all observe by the way he personalizes his responses."
Only when someone personalizes his post. What's good for the goose...
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
Which is why I have pointed out that he is not in the same league as Robert Neill of Worldwide Wholesales (HiDiamonnd Cables), Bobby Palkovic of Merlin Music and Ted Denney of Synergistic Research who are gentlemen on these forums.
"Geoffkait cannot even answer the simple question, "And how many Bybee products did you say you have in your system?"
I already answered your silly question. Why are you so hung up on Bybee?
"Note to self. Since the moderator continues to allow Geoffkait's inappropriate posts the best thing is just to ignore him."
Apparently you are unable to ignore me, judging from your last 30 posts on this thread and others. Apparently you are also hung up on me. Maybe you can complain to Mommy. |
Sabai, your continued cheap personal attacks are duly noted. If you have nothing further to say regarding Holographic Sound, and apparently you don't, I suggest you start a new thread. You can call it, Why I object to Geoffkait or Why I think Geoffkait is not a Gentleman or whatever you want. Frankly, I couldn't care less what you think, about me personally or audio. |
Measurements vs perceived sound
A long long time ago in a galaxy far away we found out that Total Harmonic Distortion of amplifiers did not dictate the sound, the perceived sound, of the amplifier. Not that THD does not carry some weight, but amplifiers, such as many tube amplifiers, with THD ten times higher(!) sounded subjectively better than some amps with vanishingly low THD, especially in terms of perceived distortion! We also learned that digital technology - for both electronics and software - with theoretical Dynamic Range and Signal to Noise ratio *Far Exceeding* that of analog, were neither as subjectively dynamic or clean as analog technology. It should have been a Slam Dunk. In reality off the shelf, untreated CDs quite frequently sound two dimensional, thin, tizzy, threadbare, compressed, unnatural, electronic, strident, rolled off, piercing, cluttered, like papier mache. What is going on? We also found out that room acoustics plays a crucial role in determining what the system actually sounds like, in particular soundstaging capabilities, but also in terms of distortion, naturalness and musicality. How good can a system get? You know, without changing out electronics and cables. Answer at 11. |
Back to Holographic Sound for a moment. For your consideration, the Acoustic Revive RR-77 Schumann Frequency Generator. "Space opened up on the recording acoustic."
Excerpt from RR-77 Schumann Frequency Generator review at 6 Moons
Full review at: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticrevive/rr77.html
"The Acoustic Revive RR-77 ultra-low frequency pulse generator is a stand-alone active device that plugs into a wall outlet but not your HiFi rig. According to Acoustic Revive, the RR-77 generates a 7.83Hz Schumann frequency pulse that 'shields' your HiFi electronics and listening room from radio frequency interference and thereby improves the S/N ratio so the electronics perform better.
Let me give you additional background because there's quite a lot more to the RR-77 than that. Let's start with the Schumann resonance frequency phenomena. The Schumann resonance is a natural geophysical resonant frequency mode of the Earth that occurs at approximately 7.83Hz and in 1952 was predicted mathematically by physicist Winfried Otto Schumann for whom it was named.
Some scientists believe that over evolutionary time, biological organisms evolved to use the Schumann resonance phenomena as one mechanism for maintaining biological health. For an example, they point to the human brain's electromagnetic waves that are synchronized to the Schumann frequency. In studies when people were shielded from the naturally occurring Schumann resonance frequency, their circadian rhythms were disrupted and they began to experience migraine headaches, emotional stress and other health issues. When exposed to Schumann pulse generators of 7.83Hz, their symptoms disappeared.
Listening Impressions
Space opened up in the recording acoustic, notes decayed in a much more natural fashion and what little edge, grit or glare I was hearing on lesser recordings over the review system became more tolerable.
One aspect particularly intrigued me: You know how you can hear the acoustic signature of a recording venue in a recording? The recording has its own acoustic signature and so does your listening room and they are different. With the RR-77 powered up, it's as though the dissimilar acoustic signatures of the recording and listening room blended and became one. This effect of the RR-77 is a little hard to articulate fully and you really need to experience it to get the full understanding. On smaller, more intimate jazz recordings in particular, it makes it seem like the musicians are in the room with you playing and yet you feel like you're in the recording." |
Chadeffect, sorry to hear that. These things happen. I had awful results with ERS paper which you mentioned is in your system. For me, even in small amounts, the ERS paper made the sound wooly and phasey. Even when the ERS paper was just sitting on the coffee table. The only way I could get rid of the effects was to take the ERS paper out of the house.
Geoff |
Chadeffect - Wow, wow, wow! I LIKE those Trios. |
Csontos wrote,
"Geoff, I know this sounds crazy and please don't take this the wrong way. But, and I mean this respectfully, is it possible you may have entered the Twilight Zone unawares and it's just ordinary paper that's been transformed into an alien entity that will be rendered harmless once you rent a small plane and fly into a vortex in the Bermuda Triangle? For life of me, I can't think of a better explanation. Hope this helps."
Not to worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. I realize you're a fish out of water and can't help stalking me. |
Csontos wrote,
"I happened to have visited that galaxy. I believe it was called the 1970s. It was also discovered that certain other parameters outside of THD were responsible to a large extent for the perceived performance characteristics and attributes of the gear that was considered high end at that time."
Pray tell, what might those "certain other parameters" be? Discovered by whom?
"The cat wasn't in the bag for very long after all the major manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon. Hence the small handful of SS amps on the scene with the levels of THD that was just mentioned. So sorry to burst that little bubble, but tubes didn't and don't have a monopoly on desirable sound characteristics. Not that it was suggested they do, but just in case."
Well, actually tubes did then and still have a monopoly on desirable sound, if you want my opinion. |
As the wise old Einstein ant says to the little naive ant in the comic strip B.C., "Everythng is relative, my son." It appears to be one of those peculiar facts of high ant audio ;-) that closed-in, "non-holographic" components - even bog standard crap components - can be made to open up and project holographic images. We all have our tricks of the trade. My latest one is Reef Knots. |
Ah, the old laws of physics argument. Say, isn't that the same argument naysayers use for your SteinMusic Harmonizer device? Laws are meant to be broken. |
Sabai wrote,
"You cannot imbue a component with properties that it does not inherently possess."
Of course, you can. You did, didn't you? |
Mapman wrote,
""I reiterate: merchants like yourself who wish to trawl the forums for commercial purposes should use the advertising services available at Audiogon."
It might be illegal to obfuscate there."
Ouch!
Et tu, Brute? I thought we were buds. :-). Slow day on the Barco Lounger? |
Mapman, why would you believe a Martian? |
Too many variables. What brand of wine?
;-) |
