Doc Luke, planning to modify a modified player? You might as well admit it. You are suffering from a pernicious case of DAC, in its most advanced form. Not even Schmalttzenstein & Pugnetti have yet described as rare and devastating a case as yours! |
AVGURU, you may want to add the Krell SACD Standard to your already extensive comparison deck. By the way, my friend and fellow audiogoner pscialli has just acquired the Denon 2200 and is only moderately happy with it. He finds it somewhat unfocused. And do please keep your analysis coming. They are wonderfully insightful. |
Another machine (redbook only) worth looking at is the Audio Research CD-3 III. As I recall it costs approx $5K new. When I heard it, it did outperform greatly a WADIA costing $8K, do not recall if that was the 861. CD-3 had a much more open sound stage, was sweeter, more detailed, and with greater harmonic texture. In particular, Yo-Yo Ma's Stradivari cello sounded like a German student instrument on the Wadia. Of course a cautionary note: I have not had the opportunity of comparing Audio Research CD-3 III to Esoteric DV-50. |
If we are comparing Esoteric DV50 with much more expensive units, some may as well post a comparison of DV50 with the Esoteric X-01 single box unit. I heard this box (redbook and SACD only) next to Burmester 001 and Bel Canto PL1-A, and X-01 was incredibly better than the other two. I have not had the opportunity to compare X-01 with DV50, though. |
My findings on Esoteric X-01 are posted at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&read&keyw&zzesoteric |
avguru, you seem to have heard Krell SACD Standard in a store. I am not sure if you have been able to compare it to Esoteric DV-50 directly already. Do you have an opinion/feeling on how the two units stack up relataive to each other in RedBook performance?
Another machine that my friend pscialli is trying to have a look at is the SONY SCD-XA9000, selling list at $3k, sometimes discounted for just under $2K. It seems to have received some good reviews, but I am not sure that it is in the same league of DV-50. |
MGottlieb, are you using Teac Esoteric X-01 as a transport only, with DCS Elgar and Purcell performing DAC function? Did you find this preferable to using X-01 for both transport and DAC? What have you found to be the sound signature difference between pure X-01 and the mixed brand stack you are using? |
Fair comment MGottlieb. Next question that comes to mind is: is X-01 a better transport for the DCS stack than Verdi with firewire? |
AVguru, after you perform the test using stock chords, you may want to put specialty chords and conditioners back in place. There are two good reasons for this:
1. Stock chords of Esoteric may not be the same as Denon chord.
2. The two units may benefit from improved chords in different ways. As you will apply upgraded power chords in the end, you may as well take them into consideration during your test session. |
AVGURU, your last post truly lifted my heart! My experience with the magical X-01 was like yours-- an unforgettable epiphany. The only thing I have found better than a pure Teac Esoteric X-01 is the X-01 augmented by a Shuniata Anaconda VX power chord connected to it.
Anaconda simply optimized what X-01 already does so well: imaging, sweet detail, sound stage in the three axis, instrument separation, and finally dramatically tightened the bass definition.
I have posted my findings on X-01 on Audiogon a couple of months ago at the following url:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
I am planning to acquire this marvellous creature early in the new year. |
On a happier note: when is the grand shoot-out starting today? |
This silence is deafening! Tension is mounting. . . AVGURU and all, are you guys still 'referencing?' |
Very Intriguing AVGURU! Do you have a feel on how the modified Denons may compare to the Esoteric X-01? What is the cost of these modified Denon? |
AVGURU and SMILIN, we seem to have determined that very few CDPs are superior to DV-50, except that:
A. Esoteric X-01 is better than DV-50.
B. The two modified Denon 2900 boxes are superior to DV-50.
c. The APL Denon mod may be just slightly better than the Exemplar modification.
Now the question, at least for me is: are the modified Denons superior to the Esoteric X-01, or viceversa? Will you guys have an opportunity to audition them together, and compare them against one another? |
AVGURU, I herewith chime synesthetically with 711smilin's praises of your very descriptive metaphores!
Jokes asides, you describe the sound exactly the way I 'see' it, or in other words, the way I hear it in images. Hope you can borrow the X-01 this weekend and get together with 711 for some serious 'referencing'--as I have so renamed 'comparative auditioning' with a fellow audio-deseased buddy of mine from the Great White North. |
Why not bring the modified Denons to the dealer, in that case? |
Great stuff AVGURU--or should I now call you Mohammed, since your forthcoming voyage of spiritual enlightment to the mithical audio mountain? It looks like 711 and you are getting ready to have a load of fun! My only choice at this time is to participate vicariously to the grand 'referencing' session. Esoteric against modified Denons: What a glorious shootout! Any chance of throwing in the EMM combo system in the mix? |
|
APLHIFI, are you sure Teac is using third party transports in DV-50? As Teac is a relatively broad-spectrum vertical integrator, the hypothesis about Teac using Pioneer parts seems--prima face--somewhat unusual.
By the way what is a DV-59AVI? The product is not on the US Esoteric site. Is it something new we should know about, or is it a Pioneer product? |
AVGURU and all, I truly envy you guys! I will be watching this thread on Saturday for periodic live updates from the battlefield.
In the meantime, is there any rumour afloat about any upcoming Esoteric product updates? |
jayctoy, you, 711 and AVGURU are sure to have a load of fun on Saturday, unless of course you get snowed in once again. I wish I could be there as well! Perhaps sometimes I will be able to tweak my travel plans to accomodate some serious 'referencing' in the Chicago area--isn't where you guys all are? I always bring along the same small set of trusted CDs in my suitcase whenever I travel out of Austin, just in case I happen to find myself in an audio-friendly place. In the meantime, what is the exact model of the modified Sony you have? I know sony has both a DVD and an SACD model with the 9000 number in the product name. |
Thank you Jayctoy for the info. Can't wait for the 'referencing' report from the whole gang! |
Mgottlieb, you have merged in your front end stack what are likely to be two of the very best CDPs on the market. Have you compared your mixed stack with X-01 augmented by the Teac Esoteric G0 clock generator, and on the other hand, with a purely DCS stack completed by the Alla Scala outboard clock? |
REB1208, while your comments about inverted polarity on Marantz may be shedding some light on the lack of detail perceived on these devices, I must gently point out that the tone on this thread has been very enthusiastic but also extremely polite and friendly. As such I do invite you to chime in sympathic resonance with the delightful atmosphere prevalent in these posts! |
Rex, not to forget the vintage EAD T1000 transport I own, that is also based on a Pioneer transport.
SJMGR, the TEAC Japan page you list is entire written in Japanese. Other than the fact that the P01/D01 combo appears to handle both CD and SACD format, there is no info I can extract from it. Can someone supply us with an English translation? It also looks like this combo is not available in the US at this time. Does anyone know if this will change in the future? |
Alex and all other modifier on the thread, Teac is also OEMming a version of its VRDS transport. Wadia is apparently using it. Have you considered creating your own branded player using this OEM transport? Given what you have already done with Children Of Lesser Gods, your magic applied to the top TEAC transport may become absolutely unbeatable. |
Wow Alex, if you get around tackling mods to the revered X-01, I'd like to know about it. Pls do keep us posted! |
711, ordering a mighty X-01 for yourself? I's bleeding proud of ya!
But remember, the creature will need to be broken in 'real good' before it is worth conducting a meaningful shootout with it.
Guido |
JMIC76, I do urge you to avoid meaningless appellatives on this thread. The gang is very busy having a load of fun, and while your relativistic views are laudable, their delivery may be found to be somewhat grating. |
711, AVGURU, you and the rest of the Chicago gang are on a brave voyage of discovery. If you seek the ultimate, you may also want to try sourcing a Teac Esoteric G0 external clock generator to connect to the X-01. When I visited Andy Singer shop in N.Y. during the summer, the consultant indicated to me that the corresponding device for the DCS stack -- called Verona -- improves the sound of that brand's gear tremendously. |
Already suggested. But, where can the Chicago-based shootout gang find the EMM devices in the greater Chicago area? |
Fascinating review, AVGURU!
Yet it is my understanding that you are at this time comparing X-01 to ModWright from memory. In that the two units were not played in the same session. Are you still planning a real A/B shootout? |
Thank you 711. I am rooting for you guys!!! |
Aldavis, just when I thought the duststorm was starting to settle, you bring news of upcoming new Esoteric products. What else is known about UX-3 and X-03? Will redbook/SACD performance be less, comparable, or better than UX-1 and X-01? Perhaps these should be the machines for our brave modifiers to consider reworking. Guido |
1 to 2 year delay in introducing a new product worldwide? What's wrong with Teac? Instant worldwide deployment is key to any global marketing strategy. The alternative is continuous localized sales Bulimia. Hope our friends at Teac America follow this thread. |
I thought the gang would be interested to know that an X-01 appeared on AGON for sale today. See the following url:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1107292156 |
OK gang, I did some research. Did some automated translation of Japanese pages and some manual translation of Italian pages. I came up with the following stilted little paragraphs on the new UX-3 and X-03 players:
Teac Japan has announced two new players derived from the UX-1 and X-01, with January 2005 Japan availability. The two players, named UX-3 and X-03 respectively, employ a simplified version of the VRDS transport mechanism: reduced thickness in the bridge from 20 mm in X-01 to 10mm in X-03, DurAluminum instead of Magnesium for the clamping mechanism, in the VRDS-NEO transport.
The D2A conversion process seems similar to that implemented on UX-1 and X-01:
DAC Burr-Brown/Texas PCM1704 with
DSD to PCM conversion for SACD. Furthermore, for the front channels the machines utilize 2 PCM1704 chips per channel in a differential design.
The quartz clock generator has been mounted as close as possible to the DACs to minimize jitter.
There is also a Sony-standard digital iLink output: it is my understanding that this is what is also known as IEEE-1394.
Mechanically the machines appear very well built; The loading tray is also made from Aluminum. The weight of these machines is 23.5 Kg, that is 51.7 Lbs.
X-03 is a 2-channel CD/SACD pure audio player, while the UX-3 is a 2-channel universal audio/video player instead, whose video circuitry employs a ADV7314 DAC and a Faroudja DCDi processor.
Multi-channel capability can be achieved only utilizing external processors connected to the iLink digital output.
The price in Japan for the X-03 is 45% less than X-01, while the price of UX-3 is 40% less than UX-1.
Further information (in Japanese) and photographs can be found at the following uRL:
http://www.teac.co.jp/av/esoteric/x03_ux3/index.html
I was tempted to post the raw automated techno-Japlish machine translations of the otherwise excellent Teac Japan pages, but just trying to read them makes my head hurts, so I will spare you the brain-swelling.
It is very difficult to tell if these devices will sound as good as the X-01 and UX-1. They seem to have been cost-reduced. But will the cost engineering affect sound? As usual, only a future shootout will tell. |
Just because I wanted to give the gang more food for thought, I decided to stirr the pot by researching the Teac Esoteric G-0 and G-0S external clock generators, which naturally are not available in the USA.
The Teac Esoteric G-0 external clock generator has an accuracy of ±0.1ppm. It is said to be:
a. ten times more accurate than the DCS Verona, rated at 1ppm.
b. 30 times more accurate than the internal clock of the X-01 and X-03, which are rated at 3ppm.
c. 100 times more accurate than the internal clock of the DCS Verdi, apparently rated at 10ppm.
The list price of G-0 in Japan is relatively reasonable: equivalent to $4500.
The Rubidium-based Teac Esoteric G-0s clock generator is yet another entire kettle of fish: a staggering accuracy of ±0.05ppb(=±0.00005ppm)!! List price in Japan approx equivalent to $11000!!
Both clocks appear to be compatible with X-01 and UX-1, and will likely also work with X-03 and UX-3. They are also said to be compatible with DCS gear. As the relatively low-accuracy DCS Verona is said to make a world of difference to the DCS stack, it would be very enlightening to apply a G-0, or even better G-0S to an X-01.
It is worth mentioning that I have seen these clocks listed for less than list price.
I suspect audiogoner LAYFISH may be able to source them. I have seen them listed on:
http://www.salehifi.com/
and more specifically at:
http://www.salehifi.com/eshop/index.php?manufacturers_id=24 |
My intentions are both nepherious as well as multipherious. Or, in other words, I am both planning to acquire Teac X-01 in the not so distant future, and to poke the aforementioned nest of buzzing audio-bugs with a most handsomely wrought baton! In the latter vein, I am rather disheartened that manufacturers such as Teac have opted to withhold a substantial portion of their Esoteric product catalogue from the US marketplace, thus treating this country as a somnolent digital backwater. not only the G-0 and G-0S clock generators are not listed on the Teac America site, but neither is the P01/D01/D01 triplet, nor the upcoming X-03 and UX-3 players. Considering ultra high end brands such as DCS are easily found throughout the United States and sold for approx 38K for the entire stack, I find it hard to understand why Teac is being so terribly coy. End of soapbox. |
That's very interesting Alex, pls tell me more. Is this an internal or external clock? With an accuracy of 0 ppm are you saying that your clock has achieved absolute accuracy? Can the clock be apply to an arbitrary CDP having an external word synch? You stated 'the secret is elsewhere'. Where exactly? And of course I am dying to hear a report on 711's reclocked player. Guido |
AVGURU, Would a 6-way shootout be a possibility? X-01, DV-50, Mightner, ModWright, APL Exemplar? By the way have you been able to A/B the X-01 directly already with some of the other units? |
AVGURU, I can see the plot thickens: Marvellous! |
Irishdogs, in Raleigh there is an Esoteric dealer that actually stocks a P70/D70 combo unit. See:
Audio Exchange
621 Hillsborough Street
Raleigh, NC 27603
(919) 828-6369
proprietor: Joe Flanigan.
I have not spoken to Joe in a couple of months, but he may very well have also X-01 or UX-1 at this time. |
Springbok10, my answer is yes. I would much prefer to work towards a fully balanced system. Perhaps in the future Alex from APL and Dan from ModWright may consider modifying some fully balanced players. |
Went to Alex's web site. I confirm the option for the masterclock generator for $200 on APL 3910. On the other hand I saw no mention of a balanced output stage. Question is also: will this option be simply XLR connection, or does it involve a fully differential balanced design?
Perhaps Alex and Steve Milin can comment on the sound improvements for these two new features.
Oh, do I so love an ever thickening plot! And yes, of course, the magic rabbit is running ever faster along the track's raill. . . Arf! Arf! Arf!
|
Thank you Frank, I did open the page from the address bar and found the following info about Alex's balanced output design for the APL 3910:
"Unlike all of the available Balanced output machines using a simple Op Amp for Single Ended to Balanced conversion, or the even more complicated designs called "true balanced" using twice more components on the signal path, the new APL Hi-Fi Balanced Output is actually giving you the sound quality of a Single Ended Triode drive. The actual phase splitting is done by the secondary windings of the output transformer while driven from the same Single Ended 6H30 Tube stage. This component-less Balanced output design gives you the Ultimate sonic performance with all the benefits of Single Ended Designs. . . "
The modification costs a modest $249. I am not qualified to comment on the engineering merits of this solution, but if it indeed it worked, it would deliver the sonic benefits of a traditional balanced design at a fraction of the price. Any comments from Alex, Dan, and any Agoners with either qualified EE knowledge or listening experience of similar designs will be appreciated. |
The balanced output paragraph can be found by opening:
http://www.aplhifi.com
and going to the products page. It is immediately after the navbar.
I'd be interested in reading from Alex about his new balanced design. It is quite possible that what you Jose21 have originally heard from him were impressions about an early prototype. On the other hand, his design does not appear to be a fully differential balanced design, and may therefore suffer of some inherent shortcomings. Only auditions/comparisons will tell. As Igor Stravinsky stated in his Poetics Of Music, you can judge a tree only by its fruits, not by its roots. |
BOSA2, just a gentle reminder. Agoners and industry folks on this thread are all very busy having a lot of fun. We are welcoming you to the discussion and look forward to your next postings in the cheerful and positive mood that we all want to maintain. Hope to read your findings about your upcoming 3910 audition soon! |
Thanks Alex for the explanation. Will your 'balanced' design also supply single ended connectors in the same box? I suspect balanced vs single ended is a religious matter, as there are as many staunch defender of fully balanced approaches willing/able to prove their point, as there are detractors. Ultimately, the proof may be in the pudding, or was it in the 'fruits?' As for push/pull vs triode, I have heard situations where the former sounded better, and some where the latter did instead. But perhaps this is only my old Italian ultra-pragmatism showing through. |
Alex, two questions:
1. Ignoring obvious cost increase considerations, have you thought of trying the feasibility/results of a 'traditional true balanced design.', just purely as a prrof-of-concept/sonic test, of course.
2. How much cost to the end user would be added by such a design?
3. Concerning a purely hypothetical DV50 tube-based mod, you can always move some of the tube circuitry to an external chassis. That is I believe what ModWright and possibly Exemplar have done.
Oops, I have no idea how my two questions have now become three. Oh well, that's pragmatism again rearing its ugly head! |
