Which USB Re Clocker
I have been very happy with my Innuos Zenith Mk 2 for several years. The sound is excellent and ripping is child's play. I have been interested in adding the Phoenix Re Clocker for a couple of years, but for various reasons, haven't been able to get a demo yet. One of the selling points of the Phoenix by Innuos, is that it can be used between any source and USB DAC.
Well it also means that any re clocker should work between an Innuos Server and DAC. The one drawback to me is that the Phoenix isn't cheap, at least as far as my budget in retirement is concerned. The Company claims that the Phoenix is more than a Re Clocker, with improved power supplies and other improvements. I don't suppose many of you guys have had the chance to compare the Phoenix with other units. Still any suggestions about other, cheaper Re Clocker units to consider? Particularly if you have had the chance to use it with an Innuos Server, but not much chance of that either. Still any advice is welcome, thanks.
The truth is for most re-clockers, because they don't have USB out, so you can't play DSD. However the Mutec does have a 10MHz Master Clock output which will help if you've got an input on your DAC or Streamer. The Innous Phoenix does have USB in and USB out so can play DSD. Again, the best Amanero boards don't need re-clocking. |
Using an Audio-GD DI20 HE + Mutec Ref 10 120 SE clock. Match made in heaven. Took the Audio-GD DDC to the super high end level of sound. The Phoenix USB reclocker may be a one stop solution but I prefer to have separate components, not only for the edge in sound quality but because its easier to upgrade individual components. |
I still use my Uptone Audio ISO Regen with the Ultra Cap linear power supply. I have an Ayre QB9 Twenty and even with the DAC upgrade, the ISO Regen with Galvanic Isolation switched on makes a noticeable improvement. If your DAC is relatively new and jitter measures are low, than I'd be surprised if you'd need anything more. |
@vgmbpty i have the MELCO n10 anniversary edition with the INFIGO AUDIO METHOD 4 DAC. SOUNDS AMAZING. HAPPY. |
Old thread but if it helps, here is my experience. My system is MBL. My DaC is a Verity Monslavat Pre 2. My streamer is a Melco N10. Sounds great but wanted more. Tried the Mutec USB3 and it sounded better than the Audio GD20 DI20 HE. Then brought a external clock, Mutec Ref 10 120 SE, and now the Audio-GD sounds better. Waaaaay better. A lot of BS theorists drawing conclusions when there actual experience is theory and chinese DACs. |
I run a Zenith into an Antelope Zodiac Platinum. Rather than opting for a Phoenix I got an Antelope Audiophile 10m clock for the Dac and an Intona Isolator 2.0 for the USB connection. USB slaves the server to the DAC. While the Poenix improves the clocking of the server as well as provide galvanic isolation for the USB connection it does not improve the clocking of the DAC itself. In my experience however, unless you run a top of the range DAc (MSB, DCS et al) that in itself is worthwhile doing. Also worth noting is the fact that USB cables have a major impact. I upgraded a solid core silver cable to a short Intona Reference cable with amazing improvement. In digital transmission timing accuracy is paramount, so short high quality cables and the best clock you can afford. |
I have been reading this forum for years and not commented previously, but this thread has perked my interest enough to make my first comment. To the OP, even though I’m guessing you have long since made up your mind about, will a Phoenix reclocker improve sq from my Zenith Mk2 in my system? The answer is definitely yes and it will not be a small improvement, it will be impressive. My only caveat is you need to use at least reasonable quality USB cables to get the most out of the Phoenix, having said that one needs at least a good quality USB cable to get the most out of a Zenith in the first place. And before all of the armchair experts, who have never heard how much sq difference a Phoenix makes say obviously I need a better Dac, well think again, I have tried it with various quality Dac’s including my Mola Mola Tambaqui and every time it makes a big jump in sq. Is the Phoenix worth the money? the answer is yes, it’s the best dollars I have spent so far in HiFi. By the way my streamer is a Zenith Mk3 but I have also tried it with a Auralic Aries G2.1 and again the Phoenix is the goods. regards, Terry |
Robert did and granny hello I am using a lamp Dac level 4 with auralic Aries LE as source using my I pad as a controller via the DS app. Jumping between SSD hard drive and tidal streaming (hi res) recently my old I pad no longer works with the the DS app so while contemplating what to do next, I had a gustard USB to spdif gathering dust which I purchased but never really used. Now I connected this by USB from my regular (noisy desktop computer) into the Gustard then out to spdif on the dac. (please note this dac uses Amanero 384 USB / SPDIF with pcm and DSD decoding) The timing space and realism was so much better.(streaming from tidal) not much different to connecting my CD player directly to my dac (via spdif) I am using regular internet albeit totally wireless and no fancy cables just kimber and audio quest. This got me looking at reclockers etc also ideon / mutec looked interesting also. I would like to go back to USB but I needs to sound just as good or better than spdif For some reason going back to spdif just sounded right. Now I'm not sure if I should go back to USB. Please HE!p I'm hoping this thread will help the novices like me read on with good insight from you guys. I would be great to see if your response are similar or totally different. comments please inshore your input is welcome also. |
Motokokusangi I don’t see what your talking about other then me belittling the usual trolls whom showed up .The OP has a Innuos server this thread has little to do about dacs and everything about the source which the Phoenix or the Ideon Master Time would most definitely will have a across the board sonic improvement. |
Fascinating read of this thread... Not sure what I would like to do. Innuos Phonix or Denafrips Gaia? The Phoenix would be connected via USB to my Zenith MKIII then to a D90 MQA DAC. If I chose the Denafrips Gaia the connection would still be USB Zenith III/Gaia but from Gaia it would be I2s to the D90 MQA DAC. Any thoughts anyone? |
John Swenson of UpTone Audio wrote a white paper on this very subject , AustinPop a well respected member of AudioPhileStyle did a deep dive review of the Innuos Phoenix explains in detail exactly what this component is and does . Curious Robertdid and other arm chair technical wanna be’s can’t or won’t debate John Swenson and AustinPop both members of AudioPhileStyle . John Darko’s interview with technical head of Innous also go into detail what exactly this component is and of course these technical wanna be’s are no where to be found in the comment section. So these are three prime examples that have been around for a while easily found and commented on however I already know robertdid and others like him here will never do so. And finally is it any coincidence none of these guys have actually listen to high end components like the Innuos Phoenix and Ideon’s Master Time and Absolute Time let alone try to understand what they actually are and do .... |
Audio-gd DI-20 is not a Reclocker but a DDC and it will improve the sound of your DAC a LOT. I'm re-reading this thread and came across this post, which led me to researching the Audio-GD DI-20. I didn't know Audio-GD made a product like this. Based on initial review, I would say that this DI-20 could be much better than the stock Singxer SU-6. It already has a built in linear power supply, uses the Amanero USB board, and has options for Accusilicon 90/98M clocks (which isn't that much more in cost). I have direct experience using the Accusilicon clocks and they are abosutely excellent. The double speed 90/98 clocks will likely be more accurate that standard 45/49 clocks. The HE version looks to be much better with a much beefier power supply. This one could be sleeper! |
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@in_shore, perhaps one day it will dawn on you that you are doing nothing but regurgitating what others have said, while clearly not even understand what I have said. I have seen many so-called "smart dudes" spout absolute nonsense in the guise of marketing it is laughable. I will repeat it a third time since you seem to be puffing your chest or something and not paying attention. The phoenix may improve the sound of the ops DAC. As the ops DAC is asynchronous (and we really hope is running in that mode with the appropriate drivers), it won’t be improving the sound from reclocking the USB. Guys like me actually design this stuff. We know when other guys like us are telling tall tales. in_shore 464 posts |
I have to agree with @roberttdid on this. Not that you should necessarily replace your DAC if you like it, but that reclocking the USB isn't, by itself, going to make a difference if the DAC is using an asynchronous USB input with buffering. The DAC is not deriving any timing signal from the USB, so reclocking isn't going to do anything. On the other hand, if you are using a good quality digital-to-digital converter and using an interface other than USB between that device and your DAC, then the quality of the timing will make a big difference, and it's quite possible that such a device could have a better (even much better) clock than the DAC that it is feeding. It's also quite possible, as @roberttdid stated, that a digital-to-digital converter/reclocker could be reducing noise on the USB connection that is affecting the DAC's SQ. Whether using such a device for this purpose is a better investment than replacing the DAC with one that can better reject this noise directly is a decision that each listener will have to make for themselves. I also believe that there are some spectacular sounding DACs that don't necessarily have the best USB implementations. USB technology has evolved much more significantly in the past five years or so than other aspects of DAC design. There are very likely some state-of-the-art DACs from five or ten years ago that will have less than optimal USB interfaces that could easily benefit from some external help for less than the cost of replacement with a more recent implementation with an updated USB implementation. |
Robertdid , there’s an interview with Innuos design principle by John Darko , smart dude . What you just said is laughable, I find guys like you nothing more then a joke with your suggestions for others what is too expensive , how things should actually work so on and so forth and finally I distinctly heard a jump in performance using a MSB dac maybe I should of used a Denafrips Lol .. |
@in_shore, I have not jumped off a 10 story building yet either, but based on laws of physics, general knowledge of what the human body can withstand, and similar things happening to other people, I know with a great deal of certainty it will kill me. Being very knowledgeable about electronics, DACs, and async USB DACs, I know, without a doubt, that the DAC will generate its own clock completely independent of the incoming data stream. That is how they work. A simple reclocking of the USB not fix any issues with the output clock, but if you believe that is the case, a highly fixed clock that is not synchronous with the output clock is just as likely to create a larger fixed harmonic on the output as it is to fix anything. If the input clock is random, at least clock induced noise would be random, i.e. harder to hear, than a highly fixed/periodic one. On the other hand EMI coupled via the ground connection and data connections, and the power connection if used in any way, can absolutely play havoc with the stable operation of that output clock if the DAC is not well designed and the ops DAC is not very high end. That noise could also couple into sensitive analog circuitry. Last, I stated quite clearly, that sure, try it out. The power filtering could quite possibly improve the overall sound and the op may be happy with the result. However, for that much money, it would make far more sense to invest in a significantly upgraded, new DAC with better isolation of the USB from sensitive circuitry. |
If USB noise is the problem, perhaps the USB Disruptor or Core Power USBe-Perfect is all you need. Here's a positive review of the latter. Seemed expensive, but I see it's on sale. https://www.audiopursuit.com/2020/05/core-power-technologies-av-usbe-perfect.html Still think my naked laptop USB to Termy sounds amazing but interested in what others experience. |
Robertdid your opinion is completely meaningless given the fact you have not taken the time to listen to a Phoenix or even bother to find out exactly what the Phoenix actually is. And the rest of you guys with your petty complaints whom think they have some technical design prowess your looking pretty foolish right now . |
Jay, There's a discussion in headfi.org. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-denafrips-ddc-iris-and-gaia.931695/ E |
@electroslacker said: So now Denafrips releases a series of Digital to Digital converters (Iris and Gaia) and Terminator owners claim they are getting significant improvements with the costlier model In the chain.Where have you heard/read this? I haven't been able to find any first-hand comments on the Gaia. Thanks, Jay |
@erik_squires, I would not expect galvanic isolation in a low end DAC. There is a definite cost in doing it, especially if the DAC is USB powered. If externally powered, there is less justification, but it is still there, especially if you want to support USB2.0 data rates. If you are powering off a laptop, one quick test is to unplug the power cord and run off batteries. In some cases this can significantly reduce noise. With the power cord connected, there is a high frequency noise path. It is assumed it is the noisy USB supply that is the issue, but as likely it is noise on the AC supply transmitted through the USB ground connection. Sometimes pulling the ground pin on the AC works, sometimes it does not. Relatively low cost ($200) medical grade isolation transformers work well. They are designed for low leakage, hence have shield windings. Something like this: https://assets.tripplite.com/product-pdfs/en/is250hg.pdf |
A good reclocker certainly made an improvement in my system. Even though the digital chain was not bad to begin with. Who cares what the naysayers and theorists say. The difference was obvious with much improved sound. More solid image and soundstage, better vocal and instrument separation, more detail, darker background etc. Everything they say. |
As stated above, if your USB DAC is async, "reclocking" the signal is a meaningless function. It will literally do nothing at least w.r.t. data transfer. sjsfive0 seemed to get good and honest data from a manufacturer who said the same thing. The reclocking function is meaningless. On the other hand, cleaning up electrical noise could certainly be a benefit. Is $3,000 a suitable price for doing that? Seems a bit "rich" for the function and could be done for considerably less money, but if you trial it and it helps, what is your time worth? It may be worth researching and investing in a simpler device but as effective device and putting that money elsewhere into the system. |
I think expensive addons like the Phoenix, need a careful audition, more than a DAC or phono stage say. Presumably you were convinced by a trial in your system, to keep the Phoenix. That is what I'll have to do, when it is possible. I live in the UK and we seem to be more cautious about Covid, than some folks in the US at the moment, no names. |
I use Grannyrings USB cables 2 of them one from my Innuos Zenith 3 to a Innuos Phoenix out to my overpriced lousy underperforming dac ,.LOL ,.. Comments above from people that have not actually listened to any type of reclocker converter device be it for i2s , USB or what have you is baffling to say the least and comical at the same time .,.. |
When I taste an ingredient that tastes better it certainly tastes better to me. That is a real and a true experience for me. No bias, no voodoo, nothing but my experienced reality. When I hear my music library in a way that engages me more deeply and causes me to enjoy my music more, then it is really happening. No need to contemplate my navel on the matter. Time and time again I am drawn into the emotion and performance of the music more deeply. Over and over I am experiencing something real to my senses and person. Yes, the reclocker does this for my system and music. No, I did not eat bad pizza or fool myself. I would rather sell the box and put the money in the bank if the truth be told. My bias is on the frugal side and being open minded and have sold +1 pieces in the past that did not deliver. Goodness this stuff is simple folks and stop trying to complicate it. If it looks good to you, then it does! If it tastes good to you, then it does! If the aroma is pleasing to you, then it is! This site used to be about detailing our shared experience with a piece of gear and learning from that. Time to listen to more music! |
There's this new assumption that nothing of good audio quality comes out of a computer USB port because of the horribly noisy computer innards and operating system thrash. Has that ever been proven or is it a very lucrative marketing claim? All these streamers and reclockers claim superority to laptops but they're computers and often made of cheaper parts and sold at very high markups. I'm of two minds: Mind#1) It shouldn't make a difference, and Mind# 2) What do I perceive? Mind#1) is flawed because "knowing" can change perception and blocks the consideration of new information, and Mind#2) is flawed because listening intently usually changes perception and expectation bias is a real thing. So, I have a laptop going to a Denafrips Terminator over USB. I use a Curious USB cablle because it seemed to make instruments more 3D. I purchased a much better laptop for streaming because I was tired of swapping my work laptop in and out of my system. With the better laptop, the soundstage is two feet higher. Getting spectacular clarity, imaging and musicality. Cant imagine needing more. So now Denafrips releases a series of Digital to Digital converters (Iris and Gaia) and Terminator owners claim they are getting significant improvements with the costlier model In the chain. So, Mind#1) It shouldn't make a difference, and Mind#2) I want to experience it. It's all quite curious, which makes the hobby intriging and fun. |
USB cables matter also. I design and sell my own. My dac is one of the best on the market and also benefits from a reclocker. Not all need, want or even appreciate the sonic improvements gained by a great reclocker and I get that. Just enjoy your music on your terms and decide for yourself how much time, effort and money you want to put into your system and learning. |
I am not sold on a re clocker and I am happy with my set up. The Zenith is very good to my ageing ears and so is the metrum. Certainly neither are current state of the art, I know. Perhaps I should have asked a clearer question, would I hear a significant improvement with the Innuos Phoenix, or some other re clocking unit, or should I look elsewhere for improvement. I use the Chord Signature Tuned Array USB chord and the re clocker means you need another good USB cable, not cheap either. Of course I need to hear the Phoenix in my system, but that isn't going to happen at the moment. Still I'm in no rush. |
