I can truthfully say the the Apogee Divas were the finest speakers that I have ever heard. Another guy in the listening room did not agree. So it goes in the world of high-end audio. ;) |
Apogee made many models, some were amp eaters with the Scintillas maybe at the head of that list.
Other models like my Duetta Signatures are not amp eaters at all and can be used even with tube amps. When my big amp went in for service I used a little Krell Kav-500 on the Duetta Sig's with fine results...the Kav-500 is not a power-house amp by any means...120 watts@8ohms.
As far as how good Apogees sound...Like any other speaker line they don't all sound the same so any one model may be more to a persons taste than another.
Dave |
I myself wouldn't choose any Apogee speakers over today's better offerings, however back in the day I believe they were something to be reckoned with. Regardless, there are other speakers that require stability and current that the question is valid for. |
If it were true Apogees are expensine, difficult to drive, and require heat-producing amps...etc. I could see your point. ;-) |
Coming late to the party, I have to ask... what is so special about the Scintillas, or Apogees in general? From what I can gather they are:
rare,
expensive,
difficult to drive, thus making them more expensive,
require heat-producing amps, raising your home cooling cost, making them even more expensive,
etc.
No doubt they are great; I am not looking for a fight. But are they that good that they supercede any number of really great speakers out there with fewer strikes against them? Please help me understand what makes 'em tick, using comparos to other good speakers that they would beat for about the same total system price. |
Parasound JC-1's. Look no further. |
Spectron Musician 2s drove my Apogees like a champ. |
Actually, they are Apogee Divas. They flanked Mozart's piano, giving voice to recordings made on that piano. It is just that the Scintilla gave all Apogees a bad name as amp eaters. This is not so. |
Just thought I'd chime in on this thread after I found it during a search. Regarding the Aragon's ability to drive a 1 ohm load and, more specifically Apogee speakers - I distinctly remember the letter which Mondial wrote to Stereophile after they tested the 8008ST and complained that it blew a fuse into 2 ohms (@ 700WPC). Mondial pointed out that a famous museum (Smithsonian I think) was using Palladium's to power some Apogee speakers that they had on display that presented the most difficult load known...I can only assume that these were Scintillas. |
I've changed again. I am using H2O monos to power my 1 ohm Scintillas. |
How about amps such as Bryston 6B and 7b down to 1 ohm loads?
Threshold S/500?
McIntosh amps with Autoformers in general? Which are best?
We are thinking of powering Acoustat 2+2 and Martin Logan CLS speakers. |
I've moved on away and above all of the above amps. I am now powering my Scintilla with the Acoustic Reality eAR 2 MKII amp. This is a diminutive digital powered by the ICE module. |
Muralman: You are 100% correct. THe X600 Passlabs monoblocks do have 4000kVA toroidals. But unless these monoblocks are running on 230 volts, its useless. If the X600's are running on 110 household current, its not going to matter if its a 2000kVA,3000kVA or 4000kVA toroidal. For the x600's to run their very best and put out their best dynamics they neeed 230volts. The palladiums were designed to 100% maximise basic 110volt 20 amp lines and no more. As for capacitance, the x600's have 180,00uf per side, about 20% more, but again its needed, especially if your on the heavy juice. As for the biasing for class A, the Palladiums actually put out a bit more than the x600's in this configuration across the impedance range. Dont get me wrong, the x600's and x1000's are one of my favorite pairs of SS amps, but there is no denying how close both amp pairs are in terms of power and SQ in reality. I would give the x600's the edge for powering a pair of inefficient 1 ohm speakers, but thats a really small edge, especially if your on 110volt juice. |
Symphonic Line
Krell
Old Threshold
possibly Acoustat |
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Ritteri, I own Scintillas, like I have said before. I bought the X600 as an assurance I could not only power the Scintilla, but as well squeeze out the last drop of ecstacy these speakers are capable of.
The Pass X600 has twice the size torroidal as the Palladium, more output devices, Hexfets, and more power storage capacitance too.
Mine is definitely bigger :)
Despite these great amp's muscle, they offer just what the Scinnies need and nothing more. I know there have been others getting by on Classe, Aragon, and Krell amps, but I am interested in ultimate performance, not can do. |
One last thing too, I have heard of and seen 4004 amps overheat due to their heatsink mass being substantially less(about 50% less) than the newer 8008/Palladium models. |
http://www.apogeespeakers.totalserve.co.uk/scintilla.htm
Though the thread is a bit old, this is geared towards Muralman.
Aragon Paaladium true specs(not their conservatively posted specs):
8 ohms: 150 watts in class A operation, 500 watts in Class AB(listed: 125 watts CLass A, 400 watts Class AB)
4 ohms:80 watts Class A operation, 850 watts in class AB(no rating given for class A, 600 watts given RMS for class AB)
2 ohms:45 watts Class A,1400 watts Class AB(listed rating for 1000 watts RMS)
1 ohm: 25 watts Class A, >1500 watts Class AB(no listed rating. But Palladiums are recommended to be on seperate 20amp circuits if driving loads 2ohms or lower regardless)
.5ohms:15 watts Class A, >1500 watts class AB(no listed rating)
Though Ive heard a few folks state that the amp doesnt fully "double down" its output rating as the impedance drops, Id like to point out that NO AMP can double down its true output, no matter what the mfg. claims. Alot of amps state that they can to some extent, but in reality its not physically possible.
Each Palladium is a true differential balanced monoblock. Each block features a 2000kVA Toroidal with 140,000uf capacitance, 24 output devices that are rated for a total of 2400 watts per side maximum.Heatsink mass is also very similiar to the x600's btw muralman, and is LESS than 10% in total mass surprisingly which is in line with all the other specs on the amp in reality. The 8008BB is basically half the ratings listed above, the 4004mkII is also very similiar with less output. All 3 can drive Scintillas with ease. And I know of a handfull of folks driving Apogee 1 ohm speakers with Aragon products(Along with some older Krell models too)as stated earlier. |
I use the McIntosh MC-2100 to drive my Apogee Duetta
Signatures. Transformer coupling eliminates most amp
matching problems. They sound super with the McIntosh
"transformer" outputs. |
Sean, that was a relief. I knew I was familiar with your name. The JC-1 is a great amp, so I heard.
Having the X600, I don't have to do math (luckily). I just follow the needle.
At <1 ohm, I need to go to live levels to swing the needle into AB. AND at that point, if it weren't for the needle, I wouldn't have ever noticed.
There is a fellow in our Apogee group who has the most advance listening rooms I have seen. There are Apogee Full Ranges forward, Apogee Duetta Signatures righ and left, with Divas in the rear.
This fellow employs a lot of Aragon's as great workhorses. They do the Duetta Signatures, and are on the bass panels for the Divas, and Full Ranges.
He also says Aragons are great amps for starting points. All these are 4 ohm speakers.
For Scintilla, one fellow tried an Aragon 4004 MK11 that overheated. |
Here's something else to think about folks. That is, the lower the impedance, the less time that the amp stays in Class A and the sooner it switches over to Class B. The more switching of operating Class that takes place, the "grungier" and less consistent the amp will sound ( in most cases ).
With that in mind, a "typical" amp that is of a "rich AB" design is typically 6 - 10 wpc at 8 ohms in Class A and then switches over to Class B at power levels above that point. If one has a 4 ohm load, the same amp will only run in Class A up to about 3 - 5 wpc. At 2 ohms, you get 1.5 - 2.5 wpc in Class A and at 1 ohm, you end up with .75 - 1.25 wpc in Class A. As such, one would have to have an amp that is VERY richly biased if you wanted to stay in Class A mode for the majority of listening on a very low impedance, low sensitivity speaker. In order to do this, you need an amp that has GOBS of heatsinking and current capacity to say the least. Otherwise the amp will both starve itself and cook itself to death at the same time.
With that in mind, a rather unique approach regarding bias levels were chosen when John Curl designed the Parasound JC-1's. The JC-1's are switchable between "rich biasing" and "very rich biasing" for these purposes. In the lower bias mode, it runs in Class A up to 10 wpc and then switches over to Class B mode. In the high bias mode, it runs in Class A up to about 25 - 30 wpc* and then switches over to Class B above that point. Using this approach, one can let the amps idle in "low bias" mode when not in use, which will keep them as warm or warmer than most other amps, and then switch over into high bias mode when listening. This approach allows one to have the benefits of "ultra high bias" in terms of sonics yet retain the benefits of "medium to high bias" by cutting down on power consumption and heat build-up. I'm not suggesting that this amp is the right amp for Apogee's or any other specific speaker, but that it is a very unique and "user friendly" approach to designing real world products.
Doing the math with the JC-1 as a reference and starting off with the conservative rating of 25 wpc of Class A operation available at 8 ohms, this would give us something like 12.5 wpc @ 4 ohms, 6.25 wpc @ 2 ohms and slightly over 3 wpc @ 1 ohm. All of these figures are based on the amp operating in Class A and then switching to Class B operation above that point. Given that most listening occurs with less than a watt or two being used ( except for rock music ), the JC's should retain their sonic characteristics relatively consistently for most uses with just about any load. This is due to the consistent electrical characteristics that the amp would display while remaining in Class A operation and the lack of switching distortion that all amplifiers will demonstrate when pushed harder.** Sean
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* Stereophile measured 27 watts in Class A on their review samples.
** This is all based on theory and not first hand familiarity with this amp. I chose it as i was familiar with the electrical characteristics of the amp as advertised and as measured by Stereophile. Other amps, like the Bear Labs Symphony, Pass Labs X series, larger Krell's, etc..., may perform quite similarly due to the very high levels of bias applied to the output stage. |
Im sure you do have plenty of real world experience, but so do I, with ALOT of different gear in countless configurations(yes I used to be a dealer for alot of high end gear in Ma. and RI.).And I probably have just as much if not more real world experience with what an Aragon amplifier is capable of. No Im not a dealer anymore, nor have I been for the last 3-4 years(got out of the business at just the right time before the tradgedy in NYC)but I do have solid experience with Aragon's running Apogee speakers with ease, as back in 97-98' I sold a few pairs of the older Palladium's to folks with low impedance Apogee speakers. To this day I know that at least 1 of my old customers is still running the combo and enjoying it as much today as he did when he first purchased them 6 years back.
What Im adamant about is a statement that these amps cant run low impedances reliably for extneded periods at high output volumes when I know for a fact this is the farthest thing from the truth. |
Rit, why are you so adamant? Are you a dealer? Seadog is doing this as a favor for a friend. I dare say he has already made his recommendation.
I own Scintillas. I know others across the world that own Scintillas. My word is backed up by real world experience. |
The only amp I have ever owned that was rated for 1/2 ohm was an Electrocompaniet awb120 which powered Thiel 3.6's with ease.
Perhaps the bigger Electrocompaniet monos would work on your Scintillas. |
Mural: You should tear an Aragon apart, like I stated the amps capabilities are far underrated which is a shame. Even though the heatsinks look small in the configuration their in, its actually surprising the actual surface area of them. The amps run relatively cool with a nominal 3-4 ohm load putting out about 6-800 watts, under 2 ohms they do get hot. But Dynamics really arent a problem for this amp. 1500 watt dynamic peaks at 2 ohms or less is nothing to sneeze at. And I kinda think thats more than enough power for concert level sound levels in even really large rooms wouldnt you say? Now as for how long they would run at this impedance, yes, thats something I never did or tried with them for long listening sessions at a time(nor found the need to really as there arent many speakers made with a 2 ohm nominal load or lower) at maximum volume capabilities. But talking with a few techs a few years back at Mondial Designs, I was told that if each monoblock is given its own dedicated 20amp circuit(which they should really be on to begin with), they would run ANY speaker and are completely stable down to below a half ohm if driven within their(with caution not to overdrive the output stage) capabilites. |
Ritteri, I am not arguing about whether the Palladium has the current to run <1 ohm. I just would not put my money on them surviving high dynamic peak fluctuations.
There are very few <1 ohm speakers out there. I own one of them. My X600 monos have enormous power capabilities, and huge heat sinks. Even they get too hot to touch more than momentarily.
I know a lot of the <1ohm speaker owners. None use Aragons. Many use Aragons on 4 ohm speakers, mostly in a bi amp configuration, the Aragon being relegated to bass panel duty.
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Muralman: Just read over some of your responses. Aragon Palladiums can rum 1 ohm and below with realitve ease. Very underrated amp,especially for driving extreme low impedance loads. Awhile back we did a lil test running 4(at one point we had 6 speakers in total running off of one channel, but the last pair were 6 ohm nominal speakers) true 4 ohm nominal speakers in parallel off of one channel back in 98'. She ran the load all day long(which is a serious statement)at moderate volume with no overheating issues whatsoever. If your wall has the current, the Aragon's will deliver, and they will do it reliably. Too bad Klipsh owns em now. I believe the Palladium 1k's are going to be discontinued real soon. They are the last of the truely industrial quality amps built by this company. |
I wouldn't chance it... I couldn't afford to. |
Yep I third Aragon. Palladiums will delivery over 1000(1500 on dynamic peaks roughly) watts at under 2 ohms. |
I've got what would be a great deal for ya on a modified Sony receiver. I know it will work like gang-busters on those speakers.... : ) Sean
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Ahhhh, I see. If he has the dough.... |
Reprince, yes I have the Avantgarde Duo's. I got the Apogees on the west coast for a friend of mine. Now he is in need of an amp. I'm doing the footwork, he does the buying. |
Sogood, thanks for the compliment. You succinctly wrapped up the amp options.
Good luck Seadog. West coast, or East coast? |
I wanted to make note that the use of an output inductor in an amp will LOWER damping factor at higher frequencies. By using a heavier gauge conductor, the effects of this are minimized AND more current can be passed as discussed above. Sean
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On the cheap, the Krell Ksa-300s would work very well and that is what I would use (better than the classe). The Ksa-150/250's were also made as mono's...the Ksa-250 becomes the MDA-500 and the Ksa-150 becomes the MDA-300. Both of these come up for sale here on audiogon and would work very well. The pass 600's would for sure be the better of the bunch (I've seen your system at the Apogee forum Muralman1, very nice). My choice for amps would be IMHO.
1. Pass X600's
2. Krell MDA 500's
3. Krell Ksa 300s
4. Krell MDA 300's
5. Krell Ksa 250
6. Most of the other older Krell Ksa's and the Classe amps.
Do not try the Krell Kav's or the Aragon's...they may work for a while but will give it up from overheating in the long run. My info. comes from what I have read on the WWW from Scintilla owners. I am sure there are other amps that would also work very well that are not on my list. I left some older amps off the list because of service issue problems that could come up with these companys.
Dave |
Oops, sorry, shoulda looked back! |
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Seadogs, I recall seeing a prior post by you where you had horns (Avante-Gardes)? Quite a turnaround, to say the least!! Muralman, do you have the website for the Apogee users group for Seadogs, I think it would be very useful. |
So, Seadog, how did you come by Scintillas, and what shape are they in?
There is a lot of help available.
I am powering mine with the X600. These are 150 pound monos that idle at 600 watts. |
ProSound amps (Crown,etc) were suggested by Gmood1, and it is true that they are generally designed to function with low impedance loads, and include self-protection features if you abuse them too much. However, I note that their distortion specs (for some of the latest models, quite respectable into 8 and 4 ohms) increase greatly with low impedance loading. Is this also true of the audiophile amps mentioned above? |
dont agree with praudio one CLASSE DR3 VHC (45 WPC) is not anoff to run those beast. at least one each side maybee....
-it seem that the kma 100 ,old krell do a good job.... |
Thanks everyone for your input. Those of you who guessed that I was referring to the Apogee Scintillas were right. |
Ghostrider: Thanks for the clarification. For some reason, i was thinking that these were quite reactive loads.
As far as 1 ohm speakers go, some of the Acoustats ( and possibly other E-stat's ) hit 1 ohm at very high frequencies. I know that my Ohm's drop well below 2 ohms but do so at low frequencies. Nothing like asking an amp to deliver all it can at frequencies that already need gobs of current...
As far as the Scintilla's dropping down to .6 ohms, good luck : ) If we put 2.83 volts into an 8 ohm speaker, we have about .353 amps flowing through the output stage of the amp. This is equivalent to one watt of power. If we put that same 2.83 volts into that .6 ohm load, we've got almost FIVE amps ( 4.717 ) flowing throw the output stage. This is literally 13+ times the amount of current. Needless to say, MASSIVE heatsinks and / or forced cooling would be pretty much mandatory. This is especially true if you were "standing on the throttle" for any amount of time. Sean
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PS... I don't think that the guy that was using the bridged Perreaux 2150's was using them to drive Scintilla's : )
PPS... People with Scintilla's can charge folks money to break in their power cords. If they rig up adapters, they can use power cords as speaker cables and draw as much or more current through them as a refrigerator would : ) |
Thank you Ghostrider45
Notice Seadog hasn't been back to tell us just what 1 ohm speaker he is referring to? |
Actually Apogee speakers are not a highly reactive load. They are mainly a resistive load. Only the Scintilla ran at 1 ohm. Most other ribbon models run in the 3-4 ohm range, a horse of a different color entirely.
Actually the Scintillas have a 3 ohm wiring option, but don't sound as good this way.
THe old Krell KMA-100 and KMA-200 monoblocks were built with the Scintilla in mind.
A 1 Ohm load will barbeque most amps. |
Classé DR3VHC will do the job,a pair with the right AC cord
will be better and sound excellent. And DR 25 not bad at all |
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Kool, nobody runs Aragons on Scintillas. Duettas, Divas, Calipers, yes, but not Scintillas. Scintillas run on an average 1 ohm, and dips down to .6 ohm. This pulls a tremendous amount of current through the amps, causing huge temp rises. This requires giant heat sinks or fans, neither of which the Aragon has. |
I believe the Jeff Rowland Model 8T and other iterations including the 9T should also do a good job with Apogees - 50A continuous, 100A peak. Not cheap but they do the job. |
Just to clarify things, the "Apogee mod" is the slang term that Sunfire uses for the mods that they do to their amps to better deal with very tough to drive, low impedance, low sensitivity speakers. Since Apogee's are the "ultimate" in terms of "low impedance, low output, high reactance" speakers, they chose to name the mods for the amps after those speakers. As such, Sunfire does not perform modifications to Apogee speakers.
Other than that, i'm sure that there are mods and tweaks that one can do to the various Apogee models. Sean
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