Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?

Aigenga,
Does your TT-101 have the grounding cable attached to it?

Dear Aigenga,
My 'Brother' :-)
How fortunate we both are to have these tables?
Don't worry about cleaning the bearings and changing the oil.......there is no oil and the bearings need no maintenance.
At least that's what the Service Manual says.
You can download both of these on Vinyl Engine.
I hope your tech knows what he's doing and does a good job?
It will be interesting to hear your reports back?
Please keep us informed :-)
Cheers
Henry

Couldn't't sleep last night Hal? :)

Heh heh :^)

Wow, looks like an electronic pizza with the works....:-)

A good description Rockitman!
Thanks for all the responses.
Lew.....does the SP10MkIII look as complex inside as the TT-101?
What occurred to me is that all that electronic complexity is probably a late 70s attempt at a 'computer'?
Today, it all could be accomplished by one tiny chip? That's probably how the new DD NVS turntable does it?
Why wouldn't other manufacturers revert to computer controlled DD I wonder? Kinda like emulating the success of the great Japanese ones of the past?

You're right Hiho about the flimsy bottom cover to both the TT-81 and TT-101 and when I tried to support the TT on the three spikes positioned inboard of the edges.......the table was able to be rocked by grabbing the outer edges and twisting.
However when I moved the cones so that their centerlines coincided with the centreline of the vertical edge of the cover (in other words.....the cones half protruded from the bottom edge)......I could induce no movement whatsoever. No wracking, no twisting......utter stability :^)
I think both you and Lew are correct about the advantages of core-less motors which both the TT-81 and TT-101 share.
The interesting thing was that the 81 and 101 share everything in terms of construction, motor, platter etc and the only ostensible difference is in speed detection and correction with the TT-101 having double bi-directional monitoring and correction.
When I slid the 101 into the same place as the 81..... The difference in sound was astonishing?
If you click my 'Systems' page you can read a treatise I posted there by Peter Moncreif who maintains that accurate instantaneous speed control is the fundamental role of the TT.
So it would be interesting to know what the speed detection and correction abilities of the Kenwood and the SP10 are? Perhaps that's where the heavy platter and high torque motor of the Technics come to the fore?
Regards
Henry

Thanks guys.........particularly Lew and Ralph.
I did sleep better last night :^)

Thanks for that information Hiho.
I didn't appreciate that the TT-81 didn't have a coreless motor?
Can anyone explain the advantages of one over the other?
Are there still 24 poles so that there are 24 impulses every revolution?

Doesn't it seem odd....if a coreless DC motor produces no cogging and sounds so 'fluid', relaxed and unfazed.....that a manufacturer would be foolish to even contemplate an alternative design?
I mean is the price difference between the two types hundreds of dollars?
I wouldn't imagine so?

Lew,
I think the Victor TT-101 originally sold for 165,000 Yen whereas the TT-81 sold for 75,000 Yen?
Big difference but the complexity of all the variable 'pitch' options plus the dual bi-directional servo sensors all contribute as well as the motor difference.

Aigenga,
I'm currently using the excellent Victor rubber mat which comes with the TT-101 (note that this is slightly different to the one which comes with the TT-81).
I find that these 'ringing' platters cry out for the damping abilities of these mats as I believe Victor also realised and perfected?
On top of this I place the suede (pigskin) mat made by Victor especially for these tables. These are available form Tommy at TopClass for $130.
I tried the Millenium carbon fibre mat directly on the aluminium platter which was not as good and also tried it on top of the rubber mat which was not bad....but the above combination I settled on works well for me at the moment.
I'm tempted to try the heavy 1Kg+ gunmetal Micro Seiki mats but the costs ($1000-$2000) make it too risky for me?
Oh and please don't spend any money on an outer ring unless you use it with an undamped metal platter.
Here is a thread precisely about my findings on these
OUTER RING

Ah Radicalsteve,
The luxury of two TT-101s ?:^)
Interesting comments on the two metal mats.
I assume you are thus using no damping on the aluminium platter?
Can you describe the differences in sound you hear with these mats over the standard rubber?
Would be appreciated?

Thanks for those images Hiho...and all the informative comments.
Regards
Henry

Hi Aigenga,
Strange you should mention stethoscope?........I just bought one last week and have been madly scouring all my shelf positions, motors, platters,,tonearm supports and plinth.
I have absolutely no motor hum whatsoever from the TT-101.....and that's placing the stethoscope on the metal motor surrounds, the aluminium control fascia and even the platter( with the motor on but the platter not spinning).
I'm surprised your Techi didn't check out the working performance after changing out the caps as you said there was noise in the bearings as well?
Something is amiss. Hope you find it?

I don't know what it is Aigenga.......but the Cu180 improves both frequency extremes in a consistently audible manner :^)

I can't sleep well at nights worrying about this extra drag on the Victor motor :^(
Have returned the stock rubber mat plus suede leather Victor mat on top.
In this case......improved sound takes a back seat.

The Cu180 on its own does have a slight brittleness in the highest frequencies but if one places a very thin leather, suede or felt mat on top, this vanishes and the bottom end solidifies even further.
I've reached a compromise by eliminating the Victor rubber mat and placing the very thin Victor suede (pigskin) mat directly on the aluminium platter.
This gives me almost the same advantages of the Cu180 yet the platter stops dead and reverses slightly exactly as the manual dictates.

Hi Dover,
I'm not so worried about the extra weight on the bearing although I hear what Aigenga says.
The TT-101 has a 'brake' action when you press the stop button but it is not a dead stop that apparently the SP10s have......rather, it 'brakes' and then provides an instantaneous reverse thrust of the motor to bring the platter to a halt and then the motor 'disconnects' from the platter.
With a heavier platter than was designed....the 'brake' and 'reverse thrust' action of the motor is simply not strong enough to stop the platter and I fear that the continual fight against the inertia of the heavy platter will eventually do damage to the motor?
I don't want to risk that :^(

I just purchased a Micro Seiki Cu180 platter mat for my TT-101 which sounds wonderful.
Cu180
As it weighs 1.8Kg however.....and the Victor 101 motor is not as high torque as the SP10/II or III.....I'm a little worried as to possible damage to the motor and/or bearing?
The motor of the 101 has a 'brake' stop function which stops the platter beautifully and almost instantly when it has its standard rubber mat plus record.
However it is not a 'dead-stop' as I believe the SP10 has and now with the added weight of the Cu180.....the platter continues to spin after the stop button is pressed.
Could this potentially harm the motor?

Hiho,
Those spikes look suspiciously like Chris'?
Did you take up his generous offer?
I think they are a fine solution.
Wouldn't work on the Victors though, as the aluminium circular extrusion is multi-faceted. It does not have a flat surface or space to enable the legs to sit in a stable manner.

Yup.......that's Chris' turntable and arm combo :^)

Thuchan is correct.
With the Cu180 platter mat and the Victor thin suede (pigskin) mat on top, it improves the sound over the bare copper mat.
It is even better than thin felt and it doesn't need to be stuck down.
A nice heavy record clamp will help it form a delicious 'coupled' and 'decoupled' bond to the main turntable platter :^)

Hi Lew,
The pigskin mat I purchased from Tommy at Topclass
SUEDE
It is paper-thin and IMHO.....a perfect partner for the Micro Cu180 platter mat.

Dear Geoch,
Are you saying that because we don't fully understand the principles governing that which we hear through our systems, we should not believe our ears?

What a shame Banquo,
I really feel for you :^(
I hope you didn't outlay too much on this tragic episode?
I must admit that looking at the photos of the innards of the TT-101 that I posted.......I can't imagine it worthwhile trying to 'track' a problem?
So far mine is working faultlessly.
I can only enjoy.....and pray?

Gee Gary,
You and I are not only brothers......we are twins!!?
I too have my TT-81 covered in the attic as an emergency spare should the need arise?
Gary's idea is not a bad one Banquo.....as the TT-81 can be had quite cheaply and is certainly more plentiful (and less complex) than the TT-101?
Regards
Henry

I'm wondering what Bill Thalmann said?
He is supposed to be the guru for SP10s and it would surprise me if he thought the TT-101 was 'over his head'?

Greetings Banquo,
Signs of life??.......that sounds hopeful.
Did you form any meaningful impressions in the time you were able to listen?

Good luck from hereon in.

JVC QL-10
Someone in the US got lucky today.
Hopefully he might contribute here?
This one looks like a beauty?

Dear Raul,
I've also heard good comments on that JVC arm.
The plinth for the QL-10 is also a cut above the average.....although the armboard does not look like it would suit a 12" arm?
Time to go 'nude' methinks?!

Regards

OK...let's try this again.....
TT-101
TT-81
TT-81
Yes Banquo......the TT-81 is a stunning performer as well....although I need to now listen to the differences with my 'new' rebuilt TT-101?
Initial impressions are that the 'old' TT-101 had suffered audibly before its demise and the 'new' TT-101 appears to be a 'new' animal?

I think that the information from Caligari about the motor differences may be correct as the Service Manual for the TT-81 specifies the motor as "DC Servomotor" whilst the TT-101 manual specifies "Coreless DC servomotor".......

I could happily live with the TT-81 nevertheless.....

Gary,
My problem with changing the power cord on the Victor is.....where do I stop❓👀
The TT-101 plugs into a 240v to 100v step-down transformer which itself plugs into a PS Audio Power Regenerator which itself plugs into the mains.
Do I need to change all three (two of which are hard-wired)❓😫

I have been liaising with a keen audiophile in Crete by the name of Antonis who has designed and assembled a 'sprung platform base' for the 'nude' mounting of his TT-81
I think he has done a marvellous job and his solution certainly addresses Lew's concerns regarding the armpods and turntable relationships....?
The 'Movement' appears to be gaining strength? :-)

HiHo,
Your interest in the Victor motors seem to have been ignited by your experiences with the TT-71.....is that correct?
Your research, photos and Links are certainly invaluable to this Data Base.
I haven't heard a TT-71...but I know the Professor (Timeltel) has one and is quite pleased......
I have more than five times the expense invested in my TT-101 over the TT-81....and would love to say that the performance difference is worth the cost....?
Unfortunately (or fortunately)...that is not the case and I can honestly say that I can hear no differences between them.
But is that really so strange?
Apart from the added complexity of the electronics and the coreless motor.....the rest of the architecture of the two TTs are identical.
Same platter....same materials...same dimensions and structure and same quality of electronic parts.
As you can see from the Timeline videos of the two TTs.....their speed accuracies and consistencies are identical....so why wouldn't they sound the same?

As they are the best sounding turntables I have heard in 40 years.....the TT-81 must be the bargain of the century? :-)

Hearing back from Antonis about his TT-81 plinth......I was wrong about the granite slabs I thought he used.......
Instead of granite slabs.....he has designed and constructed some exotic stressed skin panels utilising bauxite balls and epoxy sandwiched between two sheets of aluminium.
You can see it all here
Who needs (new) turntable manufacturers when we have inventive and knowledgeable audiophiles able to utilise the best DD turntables ever made?

Lewm,
The speed problems on my TT-101 were not caused by the Power Switch.
The Power Switch began playing up (not turning OFF) about 6 months ago....and that's when I discovered the benefits of leaving the Victor 'powered up' 24/7.
Surprisingly....when I began doing that (out of necessity).....the switch began working again but switching it OFF.....produced the fault again.
That's when I wrote about the benefits of 24/7 Power for solid state DD turntables.
My Tech replaced the switch which is activated by a gear drive which advances one click at every press of the POWER switch......however in doing so....a small glitch appeared whereby when the power switch is activated now.....the platter starts spinning immediately whereas previously one needed to press either the 33 or 45 to start the platter.
As I now keep the unit powered 'ON' 24/7....this is not an issue for me.
Another glitch since the repair is the brake function which you mentioned.
Previously when the 'STOP' button was pressed...the platter instantly stopped due to the reverse current in the drive circuit....and then reverse spun for a second before stopping. This reverse spin was due to my removal of the stock heavy rubber platter mat which I have substituted with the lightweight Victor pigskin.
Now however, when the 'STOP' button is pressed.....the platter instantly stops but reverse spins for a few seconds longer than it previously did.
I don't know whether to have this and the Power Switch issue looked into at the end of my 3 month Warranty period?

The reason I finally had to take the TT-101 to the Tech was that the digital speed read-out began indicating widely varying speeds at both 33.33 and 45 rpm.
Since the caps and soldering replacement.....this appears to be solved.

Interesting story HiHo......
I agree with you about the sound of violins on a DD.
Perhaps even more so than the piano.....the holding and modulation of a single string when bowed, can reveal the truth about accurate and consistent speed control of a turntable. More than with any strobe or even the Timeline.....with a solo violin there is nowhere a mediocre turntable can hide and if you haven't heard one on a great DD.....you may not even realise it?

It does seem odd though to cram all the added circuitry of the 101 just for the sake of the readout. And to expect people to pay nearly $1k more for it in 1977.

This is a quote from the DirectDrive Website....

At the end of the 70s the japanese audio-industry was in a unique position. They had gained control over the worldwide audio-market, the Yen was cheap and big numbers of well-educated engineers brought one innovation after the other out of their laboratories. The "golden age" of audio had risen - those were exciting times with many new models being developed and announced in regular intervals. At the end of the 70s there really was a sort of race between the mayor-players introducing ever bigger, better and more sophisticated turntables sometimes at very high prices. To understand this you have to know that the Compact-Disc at that time was close before introducing, almost every audiophile had a turntable already so the mid-class market was set. Apart from these reasons the analog flagships of that time were image- and prestige-products of the japanese companies often subzidized by their mass-market brothers.
Machines like the Sony PS-X9, the Trio/Kenwood L07D, the Technics SP-10MkII or the Denon DP-100 were built in a "cost-no-object" attitude that never again arises out of Japan. The best materials, excellent Build-quality, oversizing of all parts and innovative ideas were the characteristical ingredients of the top-decks at that time.
Those machines marked the end of an evolutionary process with non-measurable Wow & Flutter or noise-specifications and they had a sonic quality that even by nowadays standards is state-of-the-art. But 1982 the CD finally arrived and it was the beginning of the end for those machines. All japanese companies concentrated their engineering efforts towards "digital". Production-costs had risen and the Yen was standing higher making export of audio-gear more expensive. This was the time when the cost-cutters arrived and soon dominated the engineers. The analog-battleships developed in the late 70s and early 80s were the first products that were killed by this new ideology. Like Dinosaurs they had become bigger and bigger and now they're end had come.

As you might already know, Halcro, the force of the reverse current can be calibrated via adjustment of variable resistors in the circuitry.

I didn't know this Banquo...so thanks :-)

VPI DIRECT
Direct Drive AND MM cartridge........are folks actually listening now.....?

Thuchan sends his greetings......
The funny thing was that the Sony PS-X9 was located only 10 miles from where he lives.......so he drove it home very slowly.
He hasn't had time to listen to it as he leaves today for sunny climes.....

....there must be an adjustment to accommodate the precise weight/rotational mass of the platter + mat, to make the STOP button work exactly right.

P.22 of the TT-10 Service Manual.....

D. Quick stop adjustment:-
* With the turntable mounting two 30 cm LP records rotating at 33 1/3 rpm, depress the stop button, then adjust VR647 until the turntable stops without reverse movement.
* Set the turntable to 45 rpm and mount a 30 cm LP record (approx. 200 gm) then adjust in the same manner using VR646.
* Confirm that the turntable without a record and running at 33 1/3 or 45 rpm is stopped by the quick stop after slight movement forward.

So by using any weight of mat desired....one may adjust the Quick Stop mechanism by way of the two variable resistors as Banquo mentioned earlier.
This Quick Stop mechanism is independent of the platter speed and servo controls which can be easily verified by checking the speed consistency and accuracy with a variety of mats using the Timeline.....

Glad Chris helped you Downunder.....😀
His ingenuity, understanding and competence in all things audio are unequalled in my experience...
I took back my TT-101 to have him adjust the variable resistors for the platter brake system.
As I discovered....Victor added this feature to allow for the differing weights of various mats...and as I changed to only a thin Victor pigskin mat directly placed on the aluminium platter.....the brake system didn't perform as required. It took Chris precisely 20 minutes to adjust them ( one for 33.3rpm and one for 45rpm). No charge...😘 and they work perfectly..

I would waste no time in having him replace all the electrolytics in your P3.
Since my TT-101 had its done....the speeds are consistently perfect 😜

As Halcro and I know, there is NOTHING in turntable land quite as complex as a Victor TT101.

Amen....😱⁉️....unfortunately...😬

By the way Lew....are you actually listening to a 'working' TT-101? 🎼🎵🎶

Would love to see photos or videos of some of your experiments Hiho....😉
You're a 'thinker' and 'doer'.....and we need more of those...👍

Kind regards....

The prime cause is related to the fact that nearly all tonearms are mounted such that the stylus overhangs the spindle.

Thanks for reminding me of this Lew...😊
I do think that in this case with his specially made 20" tonearm without an off-set headshell.....he probably also set it up on his pod without any overhang⁉️
I can't imagine what geometry he would use if he DID set up an overhang as he couldn't get zenith correct at the two nulls without twisting the cartridge...❓😎

This tempts me to try my SAEC WE-8000/ST as a straight tonearm 😜⁉️
It comes with a ceramic off-set headshell but I use a whole lot of other headshells which I can use without twisting the cartridges as I currently do...😎
What do you guys think I should aim for as an underhang....bearing in mind the Viv Lab uses from 5mm to 20mm....👀❓

Hi Doron,
According to Vintage Knob...the TT-81 has 1.3Kg/Cm starting torque against the 1.8Kg/Cm for the TT-101.
I don't know how that relates to perceived performance as both decks are consistently immune to the the effects of 'stylus drag' even under three cartridges running simultaneously...😍
I also can't hear a difference in performance between the two decks in my system.....
Regards

Hi Doron,
I hope you haven't bought a 'bad' TT-101 😱⁉️
They are sooo complicated electronically...that it's easy to do 👀❓
Three years ago I bought my first TT-101 from Foxtan in HongKong and it arrived with the 'Power' switch permanently engaged....the 'Brake' function inoperative...the motor noisy at both speeds and shutting down after 20 seconds of play at both speeds 😵😱👎⁉️
Apart from that....cosmetically it was perfect 😎....
My current TT-101 took another year for Tommy at TopClass (also in HongKong) to find 😊
So if all the main circuitry functions correctly on yours....and you can solve the scraping issues via Banquo's suggestions.....you may be 'cooking with gas' 😜❓
My fingers are crossed for you..✌️
Regards

Hi Lew,
I sincerely hope you've solved the problem permanently...👀❓
I seem to remember some 'false' hopes previously....❓

Whilst you are making up your attached platform....it is easy enough to mount a tonearm on something like...oh, I dunno....a can of asparagus so that you can get the table running and see what you think....😎❓

but I just thought Halco would appreciate my keeping his thread alive.

😎👍

Lew,
You need to realise that when a Post contains a word, phrase or Link appearing in purple writing underlined......that it is 'clickable' and will take to a photo or page which the author wishes you to see....😜
The Victor Pigskin mat is shown by clicking on the purple underlined 'pigskin' in the relevant Post whilst the Jico mats are shown by clicking on the purple underlined 'Jico'.

To avoid confusion....the TT-101 came with the standard ubiquitous moulded rubber mat supplied with all the Victor DD decks.
The Pigskin mat is an aftermarket accessory that Victor created for those whose systems could handle the increased detail....👀
It can be a shock unless VTA is correctly set for the lower thickness....😫

Hi Griff,
I have not tried an acrylic mat....
I've tried the Micro Seiki Cu180 which surprisingly sounds the same as the thinner Jico mat on my TT-101.
I've also tried the carbon fibre Millennium mat as well as various felt mats and about 4 or 5 other leather/suede mats of various thicknesses.
It would be interesting to see how the Jico mat/s sound on your TT-81 compared to the acrylic❓

Hi Shane (Downunder),
I'll be interested to hear what you think of the Jico mats on your P3 and P10.
I notice that you now use the bare copper platter on the Raven AC-3 which puts you in a good position to evaluate the effectiveness of the suede mats.

Please keep us informed....👀😜

I am surprised no one responded to my fitting the iec socket. I believe it to be a very worthwhile improvement.

I suspect it effects a real improvement Aigenga......but we need photos to appreciate exactly what and HOW you did it...❓👀