Questions Regarding Installing a Wheaton Triplanar On A SOTA Cosmos

I once owned a Star Sapphire III and still own a Triplanar. I believe the topology of the Cosmos is identical to the SS. Your answer is no. It won’t work, because the VTA tower on the TP gets in the way. I’m sure Mijostyn will chime in. TP now offer optional longer arm wands, 12 inch might work. Maybe TP can modify yours. The routing of the cables is not the problem; they just go over the top of the deck.

As I write this, I’m wondering whether my memory is playing tricks. The TP won’t work on a Technics SP10 mk2 or mk3 for the same reason, and maybe I’m confusing my experiences with SOTA vs Technics. Like I said, Mijo has more recent experience.

@lewm I've seen plenty of Technics machines with the Triplanar, one of them being owned by Tri Mai of Triplanar.

@neonknight You'll need a new arm board of course. Why are you concerned about the cable routing? Is it a cosmetic thing?

Just looking at a photo, that arm board is sitting down in a well. Where the tone arm needs sit, the TP leads may be hitting on the base edge preventing the TP base from seating properly. I have no idea if the TP has enough tower adjustment with a flush arm board to set VTA properly. He needs to check that firsts.

Just looked at my Tri-Planar. If you had enough slack in the tone arm wires where it comes out of the arm tube, you could use a spacer to elevate the tone arm wire retention screw so the wires clear the well the tonearm sits in.

it does not fit in the well without trimming the upper deck…Sota and Triplaner owner…The wire routing is a lesser issue but may hinder proper movement of tge spring suspension… about 75% of the SOTA magic….

If I have to trim the upper level of the plinth the arm will go on the Scheu. That's fine too really. 

Ralph, if memory serves my TP would not fit properly, which is to say so that the arm wand would not overhang the platter when at rest using a plinth where the Technics chassis sits above the plinth surface. If one has a plinth designed to sink the escutcheon of the Technics so the two surfaces are level with each other, like with Porter’s Panzerholz plinth, that might work. I’m talking only about SP10 mk2, mk3, and the new R. That’s why I bought a 10.5 inch Reed. Nowadays you could get the 12 inch TP.

Ralph, if memory serves my TP would not fit properly, which is to say so that the arm wand would not overhang the platter when at rest using a plinth where the Technics chassis sits above the plinth surface.

Just looked at my Tri-Planar. If you had enough slack in the tone arm wires where it comes out of the arm tube, you could use a spacer to elevate the tone arm wire retention screw so the wires clear the well the tonearm sits in.

@lewm @elrod @neonknight I think you can get 1/4" spacers from Triplanar. I've used them and didn't get them made (so I think I got them from Triplanar). If the arm board is sunk below the plinth the spacer can solve that problem along with tonearm cable issue.

If I am remembering the spatial relationships correctly, you would need a spacer wide enough to bring the base of the TP up to the level of the top of the square escutcheon that surrounds the platter (on Technics SP10 mk2, mk3, and R).  The problem otherwise is that the escutcheon and the location of the VTA tower on the TP together prevent one from twisting the TP so as the arm wand will clear the platter when the arm wand is sitting in its rest position.  If the arm wand rests so that it sits partially over the platter, then playing LPs would be awkward and endanger the stylus, if one is not very careful.  And who can be very careful after a couple of glasses of wine?  This is also assuming one can obtain the proper P2S distance with the TP in that situation, which I don't remember.

I can confirm that Triplanar sells spacers that are 1/4". I use two of them under mine to bring the arm up to the proper level for my JVC TT-81 on the CL-P2 plinth. Put it at just the right height for the VTA adjustment to be useful in both directions. Definitely worth the money for parts that fit perfectly.

OP - agree… i wouldn’t and didn’t butcher my SOTA to make that work. IF you dont have the needed TP tool to locate the arm, let me know and i can get that to you. 

What cartridge? i’ve run a few on the TP but always interested in others impressions 

Best

Jim

That is a very good question Jim. I have just a handful of cartridges I can work with. The second arm on the Scheu is a Schroder CB-1L in ebony and I will use either a Transfiguration Audio Proteus or an Ortofon Verismo. Both cartridges sound nice on that arm. I will probably leave the Proteus on it. My third cartridge is an Audio Tekne MC-6310, which might go on the SME V which is on the SOTA. So the Verismo goes on the Wheaton. I have a Kiseki Blackheart Gen 1 that I currently have on the SME V and it sounds quite nice there. It will go to the sidelines, as well as a restored Ortofon MC2000 I have. 

If I am remembering the spatial relationships correctly, you would need a spacer wide enough to bring the base of the TP up to the level of the top of the square escutcheon that surrounds the platter (on Technics SP10 mk2, mk3, and R). 

@lewm The problem with those turntables is they don't have a proper plinth, being designed for radio station use. What this means is you can't really hear what they are about unless you fix that problem. A proper plinth will be something that rigidly couples the base of the platter bearing to the base of the arm, that is also acoustically dead. To my mind that would take a bit of machining and a good solidworks drawing of the new plinth as it should all be the same material.

If you have something like a panzerholz aftermarket base, it may well be more dead than the vestigial plinth of the machine itself. As a result if there is vibration in the platter, the tonearm will be able to pick it up as a coloration or signal. If the plinth was properly designed that would not happen. For this reason I think the SL1200G is a better bet as it has a proper plinth. Its also easy to mount a Triplanar to it with a proper arm board.

Lots of SP10 Mk3 users have removed the motor assembly from the base chassis and re-installed the motor only in a plinth that permits the coupling you describe.  I have nearly achieved the same thing without doing that in my home made plinth, but I do wish I had had the guts to just pull the motor.  Steve Dobbins was the first to do it commercially and make a plinth to go with.  But this is a sidebar to the question at hand.

Albert Porter's Panzerholz re-plinth does not involve removing the motor assembly from the square chassis. So his plinth is certainly superior to the Technics plinths made for the SP10 Mk2 or Mk3 but is still subject to the issue of which you speak. He deals with that by installing a block of solid iron below the TT.  There is a threaded rod (steel or whatever) that screws into the iron block and is adjusted to fit snugly up against the base of the bearing housing.  The block is firmly coupled to the chassis, as is the tonearm.  I've done the same thing in my home made slate and cherrywood plinth, but I used brass instead of iron; I did not like the idea of installing such a massive piece of iron so close to the permanent magnet that constitutes the rotor of the motor.

There is not many I know apart from Five inclusive of myself, who have experienced in side by side comparisons, a Same TT, TA, Cart’ with same Sub -Mounting, where three TT were used, with one set in a Marine Plywood Plinth another in a Compressed Plywood Plinth and the other in a P’holz Plinth.

My own evaluation was in keeping with others who experienced the Demo’s, which is P’holz has the most attractive influence, if one wants all the details to be laid out and easily detected.

If one wants noticeable Colouration Marine Plywood is the choice to make, if one wants a tidied up sound over Plywood, a compressed plywood is quite suitable.

P’holz is King and difficult to not use once experienced, especially following comparative experiences. Other options are seemingly firing on Three Cylinders only.

Removal of Stator and Bearing assembly from it’s metal chassis and embedding it into a Panzerholz Chassis/Plinth is all the rage in my little world of SP10 Mk II’s.

I have a box next to me now with a recently imported Stator/Motor contained, as gift to a friend.

I’m also able to use the same design, but not yet set in to a P’holz Plinth.

P’holz or Permali as the exchange material to the Aluminium Base on a Sota, will in my view transform it.

The Bearing on a Sota can also be much improved, even beyond the later guises developed, that took care of the serious flaws discovered after short term usage of original designs.

Bearings are at there best when rotating with an extremely true axis, ( think very low microns), extremely low coefficient of friction (think 0.03 - 0.08) and measures adopted to avoid a Metal on Metal contact within the bearing assembly. Such a bearing design can cost one multiple $0000’s or fortunately in many cases much less to attain, it depends on how one goes about getting to this level of performance.,

In relation to this thread, I am quite interested to see if this new TA, is one with the performance to show as a comparison how constraining the SME V is, as an influence on how a recording is perceived when being replayed.

TT’s hey, either loved or loathed.

Good Lord @pindac you shall be soon constructing the platter out of Panzer H.

But we are divergent from our intrepid OP who has other fish to fry.

OP - so i assume you have the tool to drill armboard ?

Ive heard the Verismo at some lengths on excellent arms both a Kuzma 4 pt and a Safir…i think you will like it on the TP… Best in music to you.

Jim

I was pipped to the post, see the Link, and another source produces a P'holz Platter for the Garrard 301.

I am from the school where certain materials are at there best if Homogenous, but 3D printing and the substrates that can be used are slowly changing my school of thought. As stated recently the audio industry or DIY entity are very close to seeing structures produced from mycelium spores being formed into structures. If it good enough for Formula One it has a place everywhere that needs eco friendly structures to be produced.

Houses are being produced out of mycelium blocks in earthquake areas, as the blocks have energy dissipation that surpasses other typical and affordable building materials.  

My own SP10 Mk II as a Kaneta Design, will be tried out with a stacked Platter using different configurations for the Stack.

There will be original platter on original platter, the same again with top platter filled with Newplast Modellers Putty (Newplast measures as a damping material very similar to a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood), Acetal is already available to be machined as a top plater, Phosphor Bronze and SS are both available as Platters which can be used as a sub or top platter, P'holz is another, which is already discussed to be considered, but I think will be a later down the line introduction. 

 

 

As for the Verismo, I am very keen to hear it in use and have a offer to be demo'd it in a Home System. I will revisit the invite very soon, to see what can be arranged.

Ortofon are spearheading the R&D into Damper Design, I see Damper materials as the most influential material on a sound that can be produced, followed by the tensioning of the Armature into the Damper. 

The Verismo has a bespoke produced Damper, hence my keenness to learn of the influence from this Damper type. I am not aware of it being used on any other Cart's from the Brand.

I myself have a Ortofon Cart' from a earlier period and one which is lower down in  the range. This Cart' has been modified with a TOTR WRD under its hood. This has been compared to the same design as the original and the same design as rebuild.

My Cart' stands out for the quality of sound being produced in a comparison and only becomes a slight different sound, but not bettered when compared to a much more expensive Cart' in the Ortofon range 

I don't see any other Cart' producer competing with Ortofon in the near future, there research and designs are now funded by a owned subsidiary producing micro rubber parts for the medical industry.

I get the impression the Ortofon Brand, will be trouncing their competitors  when it comes to sales proportion on the Pie Chart. 

The real let down, is the Company has now stopped all the old opportunities for a  certain selected group of Third Party Services to buy parts from them.   

@neonknight The Tri Planar will not fit on a Cosmos, not even close. The two best arms that will fit are the Kuzma 4 Point 9 and my personal favorite, the Schroder CB. The CB is way more sophisticated than it looks which is deceptively simple. Peter Ledermann is a huge Schroder supporter. 

@pindac I can not argue about Ortofon, The MC Diamond is a great cartridge and I expect the Verismo does not sound much different. They are very low output and require a very quiet phono stage. Ortofon has a presence in the market that no other company can match. Having said this, I have to say that I am pleasantly pleased with the Soundsmith cartridges I have owned in terms of quality, performance and support. The Hyperion MR is easily up there in performance with the Lyra Atlas SL and the MC Diamond. The Stylus on the Hyperion MR is a real piece of work. You can see it here 

 

@pindac I think good platters can be made of many different materials. Of greater importance is the quality of the bearing and the interface between the record and the platter. To pass energy to the platter efficiently the mat has to have the same mechanical impedance as vinyl and the record has to be glued to the mat along it's entire playing surface and the mat glued to the platter. In this way the platter captures the opposing forces created by the stylus bouncing around with the groove. With a good cartridge and arm there should be no, or almost no needle talk. This is one of the hallmarks of a great record playing system. If you hear needle talk with your ear one foot away from the stylus tracking the record you have work to do. I have never listened to a turntable that I could not hear needle talk with an ear 4" from the stylus tracking the record. It should however be very faint.

And yet there are those devoted to mats that barely make contact with the LP, like the Resomat or certain cork mats. There’s no accounting for individual taste and rule making is futile.

@mijostyn I have a Schroder CB-1L with ebony wand on my Scheu table. I love the performance of the arm, and despise it's adjustment settings. It is criminal how primitive the counterweight setting, VTA, and antiskate adjustments are. I loathe installing a cartridge on it. 

I am a Platter Mat Hoarder, I have approx' 20, which os not a brag, it is a resulkt of a long-term of collecting of which I have listed the material types on this forum on a few occasions.

Today I have broke into a delivered package and now have another Metal Platter Mat to add to the metal selections to be made for Mats.

This new metal mat is a Micro Seiki Duraluminium, it is a much more substantial weight than the AT 677, but not coated in a coating like the AT - 677 Technihard. 

I have after endless trials found 4 x Mats Types with a total of 7 x Mats that work in a very similar manner at preserving the Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Envelope and Coherence. Between the 7 x Mats, to my ear, it is extremely difficult to detect a loss of any of the above referred to valuable traits.

I can adopt another Mat/Material and immediately detect a substantial loss to these most valuable traits presence, with the result being that perceiving the loss can become a very real detractor and unwanted listening experience. Fortunately an easy fix is at hand.

I do suspect that many users of Vinyl as the Source Medium, settle for an inferior set up, especially one not optimised. I state not optimised as a result of the outcome of my loans of Mats, which for those that have received them have been exposed to a revelation. For the most of these die hard Vinyl users who have taken the time to experience these new encounters, they are jaw drop impressed. When they are further encouraged to play with the VTA for each Mat, the report back makes it sound like they have a new TT in the house of substantially more cost. Not bad as an outcome from a bit of time set aside to make the most of a Free Mat Loan and a little play with a TA's VTA.  

It is very easy to lose the very important traits able to be produced from a replay, when having a Mat Material in use that is not an optimised substrate to work in a particular and unique environment, endless toying with VTA and other Cart' geometries will not optimise the set up, the interface of the LP to the TT must be optimised to the unique environment.

The best on offer without optimisation will be music being replayed Hoo Rah, that is the Goal and possibly a Coherence of the presented sound that has an attraction. There is much more that can be realised, but I will not suggest to anybody where they should get off the bus.

My choice selection of Mats are today, used for creating Tonal Richness.

The AT -666 Vacuum Mat is the most lean with the Tenuto Gun Metal being Lean, but with a hint of Rich injection if only compared to the 666. Rock, Indie, Country, Americana, Orchestra all come to life with these materials, but this is my unique flavour if choice, as are all my preferences.

Another might enjoy the mats capabilities, but prefer different mats to be selected for other genre's.   

The AT-677 has a Rich Tone when compared to the above.

When the 677 is compared to the following types it is the least Rich, but not what I will call Lean in Tone, it has taken on roots. This is wonderful on Female Vocals and Piano or Jazz, but adds something of an alternate attraction to the above genre's.

The AT 600 is used both Singular and Stacked, It gives an immediate perception of a Rich Tone, Notes and Vocals are noticeably underpinned with a extra depth. A foundation is now detectable. I do believe a Newplast Modellers Putty used to bond the two stacked 600's will give a much deeper sense of the foundation, but if the important traits diminish, there is no value to be had in my assessment. This would be more in keeping with what I will refer to as the experiences being had by many.

The music and listener really do come to life when all the valuable traits are laid out in front of the listening position.

The 600 is wonderful on Female Vocals and Piano or Jazz.

5mm Forex Foam ( Cheap as Chips/Fries) what a material, plenty of Richness to be perceived in relation to the AT -677 and a few increments more into the ground than the AT 600. Forex is my most preferred Mat for Chicago Blues and all copycat performers.  

In with this mixture of Mats I have a OEM Platter, a SS Platter and a Phosphor Bronze Platter, along with Spindle weights in differing materials up to 1Kg.

 Do I take Platter Material, Platter Mats and Spindle Weight seriously?

No! No! No!

I'm a bit loke McD's when stated were not in the Burger Business, were a Real Estate Company.

I'm not in the support a Vinyl LP Business, I'm in the whatever it takes to preserve the - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Envelope and Coherence - Business.

No point in owning a Cart' costing $$$$'s if it is the most expensive smearing tool that one can afford, avoid such pointless squander of ones monies, it will be better  to buy into the Cheapest Smearing Cart' on the Market. The listener fatigue and discontent will settle in at the same rate for each Cart'.

I wonder how the New Mat will fit in ? I wonder how a few different stacked permutations will present ? I wonder If I have to start from scratch on the Kaneta Design ? 😉  

I'm glad to have adopted TT's with designs and Drives that allow me to use all weights and configurations for Platter, Mats and Weights.       

Do you actually change mats according to the genre of the music you plan to audition? Your audiophilia must be very tiring and time consuming. My philosophy has been make a choice carefully and live with it.

@neonknight 

Frank Schroder is a watch maker. All the adjustments on are simple and very effective. You have to have a light touch with everything. Each cartridge gets a mounting plate which is marked for location with a very sharp awl. With the scale on the side of the VTA post and my marked mounting plates I just have to worry about VTA and anti skate. It takes me maybe ten minutes to change cartridges. The first set up of any cartridge is always a bit tedious, but I also view the stylus under high magnification and I will snap lines on all the right angles and make sure they are in tolerance. Here are some pictures. 

 

@neonknight 

Shame it isn't a 9 incher. You could put it on the Cosmos and the Tri Planar on the Scheu or better yet a Schroder LT.  I would sell the 11" CB the SME and the TriPlanar (it has too many parts anyway), get a 9" CB for the Cosmos and an LT for the Scheu. 

@lewm I can only make rules for myself. No one else has to listen. Simple test. Turn off all the fans and the refrigerator and put on the forth movement of Beethoven's 9th. If you hear needle talk from one foot out you need to change something to do with your turntable. You'll have to figure it out:-)

@pindac see my note to Lewm above. I want you to turn the gain on your microphone preamp up all the way and make a recording of the needle talk of each mat doing the 9th and we'll figure out which one is best.

I would think that the cartridge itself is vibrating secondary to the movements of the cantilever. Not all that energy is delivered into the vinyl; what you are hearing is sound created directly by movement of air molecules because of motion of the cantilever. Of course it’s going to be more or less evident, depending upon the compliance of the cartridge, the effective mass of the tonearm, the composition of the body of the cartridge, and the degree to which energy is transmitted into the arm wand and thereby nullified. What energy is delivered into the vinyl to be absorbed by the mat is what’s left. So, while I don’t doubt that there are differences in the intensity of the "music" you can hear with your ear close to the LP, I do doubt that it is all about the record mat. (By the way, this one reason I avoid dust covers while playing LPs; that energy put into the surrounding air by the cartridge gets trapped and can cause resonating of the dust cover. But let’s not re-hash that argument.)

The needle talk test is one variable of many how i and a few others have arrived at the Triplaner / Lyra combination…. Of course…i’m not so arrogant ( well maybe )… to suggest it is the only way…. in fact, my ancient Dynavector probably equals it in that singular aspect….

Always good to check in with the OP…. are we helping any ?

Lord..not the dust cover swirl again…. although i believe one would approximate a snare head quite well…..

Changing a Platter Mat that is a single Mat only from my selection to be used, is quite simple, as they are all between 4.5mm - 5.2mm, no difference to changing an Album or Spindle Weight.

Note: I have made it known within this forum I swap out my ESLs to Cabinet Speakers to listen to Blues Music, as I like the Colouration of the Cabinet, it brings back strong memories of when I first was listening to Blues in small venues. Surely of I had the opportunity to further tweak the Richness of Tone to blend the Colouration why not.

 If I am entertaining guests with listening to the HiFi as the sole agenda, I will certainly select the bulk of the music to work with a Mat I intend on using.

If the guests bring a different music type along, I will make it known a different Mat will be potentially a improved experience.

As said on other occasion, the listening experience is a activity to entertain, and the value of the sound side of the entertainment is very much aligned to how the individuals Amygdala is stimulated by specific sound and is producing chemicals that are rewarding as a stimulus. 

In the same manner I understand other stimulus, I have developed a n understanding of this one to, and how mood/feeling can be changed by minute changes to the sound being produced. 

The listening experience impact on a person, extends far beyond the sound arriving within the ear, it is totally associated with the hierarchy of Wellbeing and Mind, Body, Spirit.   . 

And yet there are those devoted to mats that barely make contact with the LP, like the Resomat or certain cork mats. There’s no accounting for individual taste and rule making is futile.

@lewm , @mijostyn was spot on with his comments about the platter pad. I’ve been telling people exactly the same thing for years. I didn’t make it up either :)

Its not a taste thing as well, since its very easy to know if the platter pad is doing its job as laid out in mijostyn’s post. There’s not taste associated with that, more of a ’yes’ or ’no’ thing. Platter pads cannot be made to favor a certain genre of music any more than a loudspeaker or an amp can.

The Tri Planar will not fit on a Cosmos, not even close.

I know Tri Mai and he’s told me that people do indeed install Triplanars on the Cosmos (I had one myself) so it can be done, albeit with a few spacers.

 

Ralph., I was simply pointing out that there are some who seek to isolate the LP in space above the platter. I did not say I agree with that approach or would embrace it myself.

Not at any time has been suggested a Platter Mat is a design to favour a Genre of Music.

The fact I like a Platter Mat that has a perception of being Lean on my system when in use and is preferred on use with Rock, Indie, etc, is my choice and no way a suggestion towards anything else.

Just as I never said a Speaker is favourable to a Genre of music, but did say I favour a Speaker Cabinet to be in use when I listen to Blues.

The idea that there is not a taste for a variation of sound as an experience is hilarious, utterly hurting my ribs at the moment, lets all chop the HiFi in and get Alexa.  

For the Record, all that I offer to others is free, there is no remuneration in mind at all. Certain individuals have been so impressed with a loaned platter mat it has been gifted to them, and others have made their own efforts to purchase a particular type.

There are contributors in all forums who are types that have very healthily remunerated themselves with their activities around audio equipment, and as a result think of themselves as a authority. My opinion on this does not matter.

What I an sure of, is that there is not one 'know it all' throwing out opinion on a forum, that is going to influence myself, especially when commenting on how I should use my time to generate experiences with and around audio. I will decide what level of Transparency is present and what tools are to be used to maintain this when I get of Bus leaving colouration behind. Nobody else will be making that decision for me. 

 

Pindac, This is an excerpt from your long post about platter mats, above:

"The AT -666 Vacuum Mat is the most lean with the Tenuto Gun Metal being Lean, but with a hint of Rich injection if only compared to the 666. Rock, Indie, Country, Americana, Orchestra all come to life with these materials, but this is my unique flavour if choice, as are all my preferences.

Another might enjoy the mats capabilities, but prefer different mats to be selected for other genre’s. "

This is where I got the idea you might be inclined to change the platter mat to suit the music. Sorry if that upsets you. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you have a character flaw. I consider myself an oddball for having 5 turntables with 6 tonearms and cartridges up and running into two different systems, at all times. Now THAT is a character flaw of mine.

@neonknight ​​@atmasphere ​​@lewm , I have scoped it out,  The problem is the dropped counter weight. It runs into the back of the plinth. Yes it will fit. If you cut the back of the plinth away at the right rear corner behind the tonearm well. You would have to put the cartridge on stilts to get the arm up high enough and you would lose the right rear dustcover hinge. 

Lew, the record imparts the energy to the stylus which is suspended. Everything below the resonance frequency is passed to the tonearm, everything above the resonance frequency moves the stylus relative to the arm and the reactive forces must be dissipated by the record which also has a resonance frequency depending on the record's thickness and how firmly it is held down. At frequencies higher than the resonance frequency the record sings like the diaphragm in an old Victrola which is what you are hearing which is high treble. If the record is fixed and can not move across it's entire surface that energy is dissipated by the much heavier platter and you hear nothing. Larger, heavier, stylus/cantilever combination put more energy back into the record and the needle talk is louder.                                                                               

This is your model to explain what you believe a priori. That’s fine.

@neonknight VTF and antiskate not VTA and antiskate. My mistake. 

@pindac That's it! You are an oddball. Glad you figured that out:-) I was getting worried. 

@tomic601 The only person more arrogant than you is me:-)

The lyra has less needle talk because it has a very small stylus and boron cantilever. It puts less reactive energy into the record. It also has a very lightweight stylus mounting system. If you look at the pictures in the link above you can see it easily. The end of the cantilever is forked and the stylus sits in the interspace between the two prongs. My Sonic Lab uses the same supplier. The MC Diamond and the Soundsmith Hyperion, due to the nature of their cantilevers, have the stylus held on to the end of the cantilever with a big glob of cement.  

One of the reasons I like vacuum clamping and the Sota is the vacuum clamping effects on record resonance along with the engineering and construction of the Mat and platter. The other advantage is a flat record and pitch stability. 

 

@lewm It is not my model. It is my test. Freude schoner gotterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feurertruncken, Himmlischer dein Heiligtum:-)

I wondered IF you noticed that glob of cement….

I for one find @pindac a very interesting audiophile and music lover …. bravo

Has anyone read this review of the Cosmos with TriPlanar arm? The reviewer did not seem to have any issues with the arm. I believe it is the 9.8” version with 250 mm effective length. I bought that Cosmos and I also used a TriPlanar with it. I used a SOTA arm board which brought the base of the tonearm to level with the plinth. I never gave a second thought about the cabling. I thought the Cosmos and TriPlanar sounded good.

Call Sota

With 10 inch or longer TP, should work fine.

Please translate the German. Is it attributable to some particular source? Also if you have data, as you imply, that would be refreshing. 

@lewm My follow up references made to my use of a Platter Mat and Genre, has not been prompted by yourself.

I sense you fully understood I was describing a perception of impact on sound from the material selected for use.

To elaborate, on my set up in my environment, I have discovered certain materials and supporting ancillaries, that are intended to be used at the interface of LP > Platter or LP > Cartridge, that are not able to enable the systems capabilities to deliver to the level of presentation that has been realised within my own system in most up to date guise.

There are materials and supporting ancillaries selected, that have to some degree and without doubt, Obscured, Masked, Concealed, Kept Hidden, Blocked Out, the systems capabilities of producing perceivable Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence.

I stand by my statement that many who are keen to use a Vinyl Medium as their Source Material are using set ups that have the impact where one of the following - Obscured, Masked, Concealed, Kept Hidden, Blocked Out - is occurring to some degree.

As stated, if one is heavily invested in their Vinyl Source to have this as the impact on the sound being produced, if present, this to myself, is seemingly a wasteful condition.

I have helped others discover this condition in their system and assisted with aiding them to move beyond this condition being noticeable in their system.

My Loans of items are instrumental to the condition being realised and through trials of differing configurations of materials at a interface, a version of a improved alternative has also been realised. The result, being that another has been enabled to create differing interfaces, along with TA geometry tweaks to capitalise on the interfaces being created.

To attempt to be clear, In my unique listening environment on my System.

I have been able to set aside materials due to their poor value as an addition and select others that add value, especially through enabling the systems capabilities for creating a perception that - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence are all present and are far removed from being perceived as - Obscured, Masked, Concealed, Kept Hidden, Blocked Out.

To have a system that has realised the above Capabilities and attractive traits. Which is the result of being enabled through design, component and material selection, with the fundamental intention to create the perception of such valuable traits being presented. Is to have a system that has an interaction with a listener that can/will become addictive.

I once demo’d at a public attended event, where approx’ 500 paying visitors were in attendance. A very conspicuous visitor to my space came back for numerous visits, as did quite a few other visitor. At the end of the day the conspicuous visitor came to my room with one other person, they made it known they are a Company producing TT’s with a starting price of £50K and have customers with systems costing £000 000’s. They wanted to tell me my system had them mesmerised and was a real credit to the show, especially in how I had shown that a system can be produced on a budget that impresses in a very similar way to one of their uber expensive clients system. I’ll take that as Win 😎

Such a system certainly hits home on the satisfying the individuals unique stimulus from the impact of the environment on the function of the Amygdala. As a result of sound encountered in an environment, there is a stimulus, it’s not a Nicotine or Caffeine hit, there is more gentle and longer lasting impression from the Chemical Reactions resulting from the Amygdala Stimulus, one that is the stimulus to keep the pursuit ongoing by the audio enthusiast.

One does not put their hands over their ears to close out a sound just because it hurts their ear drum, they also do it because the sound, as a non medical description, is freaking the Amygdala out. The Chemical Reactions being produced trigger the motor neurons and the protected ear is not a choice, it is a reaction.

As stated, the sound created by creating an audio system can be very good for - Mind - Body - Spirit, it don’t have to be limited to Whale Calls and Breaking Waves.

Where did the pursuit start, fortunately for myself, I have learnt of the value of having a High Quality Bearing Assembly, a long time before I had encountered many of the experiences being referred to in the above posts and other posts made on this forum.

The overhauled platter spindle bearing, where the design is limited to producing axis trueness, reduction in friction and metal on metal avoidance, have been known to myself for many years. These three items being addressed are of high importance to enable a proportion of a perception of - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence to be noticeably present when compared to a non overhauled bearing. What is usually noticeable with immediacy, is the quietness, the TT when rotating is just so not there, the benefits of this condition are more timely to learn, not all are aligned to the valuable traits and detecting them, even myself many years past.

Where does one go after being able to perceive such positives are to be had from a bearing overhaul.

Platter Mats are easy, a quick swap out if a certain range of thickness are used only. There are hundreds of options to be had. The Commercial Sector love the Vinyl Enthusiasts keenness to try out Mats, one can pay $500+ for the privilege. My suggestion start with Rubber - Cork - Rubber Cork. Each will have the potential to present with a different impact on the sound being produced, do not stop and rest on laurels, there are very valuable discoveries to be made.

There is another investigation very worthwhile, which is looking into a TT’s Speed. Controlling Speed in a improved and precision manner, can be quite affordable. One can even get a very accurate Speed Controlled TT for less money than the cost of an add on ancillary to control speed in a much more expensive TT.

One can also get quite affordable Speed Controllers as a DIY Build for differing Motor Drive TT’s. I have had these options built for myself on owned and used TT’s. As well as have a TT with a renowned built in Speed Control from the Manufacturer redesigned as a upgraded Speed Control design.

Speed Control when properly working will be very beneficial to increasing the proportion of perception of the Valuable Traits being present.

Speed Control when used in conjunction with a Bearing that has been Overhauled, is a combination that has a impact that has left myself, never wanting to return to what was before. The - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence - just pop out, this is a attraction to the presentation that is to be maintained. Anything from previous guise is no longer to be put to service, unless as used solely as a comparison demo’.

Interestingly, maybe anyways, is that those I know who got over their hostilities to a idea of a bearing overhaul and especially with a focus on the avoidance of metal on metal when reassembled, could not say enough publicly about the good impression made.    

The Support Structure is a activity of learning that for myself, is another endless journey. As Structure Design and Structure Materials are able to be worked with in differing configurations and exchanges. The perception of the - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence are being further defined in ones perception, by the careful selection of a range of materials and design for a supporting structure. I today can quite easily demonstrate, how the removal or exchange of a couple of choice items selected for the structure can with immediacy create the perception a colouration has been added, the tonal frequency has undoubtedly moved. By removal or swapping out certain items in the structure I can easily mask the attractive traits being referred to.

There is no shortage of very very positive reports on how a rethink about how a Support Structure is created, has produced a end result that is extremely impressive and is very much wanted to be kept in use.

Do I really want a Vinyl Source set up in a way its usage seems compromised, certainly not. Being investigative and adopting methods made known will certainly move a Vinyl Source set up more towards the description of becoming impressive.

Tonearms, "Regrets I’ve had a few," (good ole Frank), nearly all TA's in the past 30 years being a design based around a certain geometry, and are a design that are born from plagiarising another’s design.

My earlier choices for a TA enabled myself and others to experience my systems capabilities to present the eked out Valuable Traits.

It is knowing that quite a few use these TA’s with a design born from being plagiarised set around a particular geometry, that I feel is a fundamental to my making a statement such as:

"I do suspect that many users of Vinyl as the Source Medium, settle for an inferior set up, especially one not optimised."

My choice of TA in use today, is bespoke produced, and is the design that has enabled all the previous investigative work undertaken to be catapulted to a whole new level of quality and impression made.

The new TA is without doubt, very very responsible for the perceivable presence of the valuable traits - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence - are there in droves.

Demo’s of this latest guise to the set up, and the making it known the TA in use has without doubt, been the tool to bring years of toying with ideas and materials to a new level of performance, has resulted in individuals being at a demo’, having put an order in to have a same TA produced.

One individual who purchased as a result of a Demo’, is an Engineer and very adept EE. This new TA acquisition, has been so impressive, the individual become compelled to produce a from scratch built TA design, which now produced, os proving to be an excellent performer and is seemingly only differing in sound quality to the acquired TA, as a result of different materials used for the structure, mechanically they are seemingly a parity in how the perception of being unconstrained.

Cart’s and the Mechanical Interface externally and within a Cart’ are always a curiosity to myself, this is one area, where I have to be quite deliberate in how I constrain spending. Kindly offered demo’s are free and usually good friendships have evolved from such new encounters, if a fellow enthusiast is the host.

Where next, with all this history of creating different mechanical interfaces and structures to impact on energy transferral to a mechanical interface.

More Interface investigation I’m afraid to say ?

The use of Vinyl as a source for some, has a parallel energy usage running along side. Where the mechanical requirements are as enjoyed as a subject, as much as the listening to the recorded music. My own personal hierarchy, always has the set aside time to be entertained through listening as the ultimate to be achieved. I know a few who I very much respect, who will spend hours at the Lathe-CNC-Soldering Station and after 30 minutes of listening to very impressive creation, get back to the workbench as their real audio interest. .

Panzerholz, Permali is hot as a material, as a material it has revealed itself as being impressive, and one to supersede other selected materials. Especially as a Plinth Material.

In use, it has tidied all the Valuable Traits, to the point there is now a detectable precision in how the - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence - are being delivered. To my preferences this material has is the ultimate as an attraction. It is strange that the impact is not overly present, but is when experienced in my system and a few others only describable as a night/day difference.

Also the Kaneta design for the presently in use TT, both P’holz and P’mali are key to this, where the TT’s metal chassis will be substituted by having a Plinth/Chassis from the above stated materials, nothing new here, just getting on board where those with better knowledge and understanding than my own have gone before.

Also Platter design, there is a host of Materials and configurations for this to be put in place as a trial experience.

I have a system that is very responsive to changes to a Tonal Frequency and the impact on such a change on how Timbre is perceived.

I have a variety of Platter Mats that enable a tuning of the Tonal Frequency, I reduce or introduce Colour as I decide.

I also have with this simplistic approach, a means to produce a Timbre that has an honesty as a adjustment that takes seconds, what not to like about that .

Further can be done with perception of Tone/Timbre with a umbilical swap at a key interface, if the mood demands it.

My extended investigative measures are maybe for some unusual, certainly not oddball, I have not been eccentric or invented anything, or am I using anything not typically selected, even in relation to the likes of densified wood, it is already a product found in commercial ventures for audio equipment. Mycelium as a material is weeks, or Months away to be found in use.

I have only experienced many more types of a typically selected material than is usually seen reported on, and can only vouch for my experience had and very little else.

As stated, when it comes to sound produced from audio equipment:

"I’m not in the support a Vinyl LP Replay Business, there are many with substantial investments getting a satisfying replay. Myself has moved forward of this method. I’m in the whatever it takes to preserve the - Dynamics - Micro Details - Attack - Tone - Timbre - Envelope and Coherence - embedded into a Vinyl LP Recording Business."

When such valuable Traits are perceived, other perceptions follow, the Psychoacoustic is able to conjure up fantasy.

The Soundstage becomes quite real, the Volume of the Soundstage enlarges, the boundaries of the soundstage seem very distant.

The Imagery within the Soundstage seemingly takes on a form that is not only locatable but also can be perceived as being in transit and seems able to be encountered.

The Visual and Audible share a similar space, then take a stereo recording made with a QSound Code embedded, the Visual becomes disconcertingly real to the point of creating a reaction from the listener.

None of the above very attractive traits will be realised from using a non-optimised set up for a Vinyl Source.

@tomic601 It is great to know that others like yourself, both experimental and curious are able to be discovered in audio forums.

Such good to know types are becoming rare, some might say hounded out.

Have a look at the Link, this is the future, not all will call it Mycelium, it will get an internal fancy name to make it seem incredibly expensive, as Linn has recently done in their £50K TT, where P'holz is used. Linn are using Product X to add to the Ker Ching.

 

  

Dear Pindac, do you really feel like you or anyone else is “hounded” on this forum?

@lewm I am not a member of the 'fix it with $1000's gang', I'm on the, 'be investigative' and look at what you are doing with the set up, for some that is a harder method than parting with money without much knowledge of what is being bought into  .

I will usually be on the outside of many a discussion, as the fix is commonly how much monies are to be spent on a unknown product with the chances it has never been an 'in front of experience' by the OP, as well as very likely the recommender as well.

In my Country, that as a practice, has a special idiom reserved for such a practice, and it is not, 'waste not want not' that I encourage. 

Most of us regulars would agree with your philosophy.  There is not a single element in either of my two systems that has not been modified (hopefully, upgraded) by me, and I totally agree with the vital importance of structural elements.  I consider myself somewhat of an audio cheapskate.  But who is being hounded, was my question.