Thanks, Dave. On the coming Wednesday, I will have the opportunity to drive into San Antonio (70 miles) and audition the following brands:
Jolida
Shanling
Antique Sound Lab
Creek
Cayin
Rega
Rogue Audio
PS Audio
Niles
among a few others.
I love the way the Shanlings look, and I like the bang for the buck that appear to be had with the Jolidas. I am also intrigued by the tube/ss hybrid amps I have seen on the internet.
As far as interconnects and speaker cables go, I presently use Monster Cable with gold plug in style clips, but not necessarily the higher end stuff.
I am planning to keep my speakers for the foreseeable future, since the $3000 outlay now will dry up my hobby budget for at least two or three years minumum, if not longer. Therefore, I really need to find an amp+pre-amp, or integrated amp plus a cd player that will match well with my Klipsch speakers. I do like these speakers, and when paired with better quality components and better acoustics, they should be just fine. I will also add better cabling.
Are there any opinions on the above brands and how they might meet my needs? Thanks. |
Can you bring your speakers to the dealer? If you are going to buy they might set them up for you...it won't be your room but it would be a good start. Two of the dealers require appointments, so when I call, I will ask about this. Good idea. |
One alternative that has captured my interest is purchasing a Jolida JD501B tube int amp, or the Jolida JD1501RC hybrid int amp, plus perhaps a Music Hall CD25.2 CDP from Underwood with level one mods. Underwood claims that these components with the mods sound as good as components costing two to three times as much. Is there truth to these claims? If so, that would seem to me to be great bang for the buck. |
Blindjim said: I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade. Right now, what I have to play back in my collection are CD's and digital files. My wife got my substantial vinyl collection in my recent divorce, so I don't have to worry about a turntable anymore, and I no longer own anything on any tape format (she got all that too). In the future, I intend to purchase CD's and SACD's to add to my collection. I listen to various styles and genres of rock music, jazz, new age, world and some classical. That said, my immediate goal is to upgrade my amplifier and my CDP. My long term goal is to upgrade my speakers, but I am quite satisfied with my Klipsch KG-5.5 for now. As stated earlier, I believe most any entry level audiophile components should sound considerably superior to what I have now, whether SS or HS, with my current speakers. However, I think it would be wise to purchase an amplifier that could handle tougher to drive speakers as insurance to help meet that long term goal. At my budget level, in the foreseeable future I doubt I will be able to acquire any components in the mid to high end audiophile range, so components of $2000 or less are my target. I am thinking about bumping my current budget for the two new components up to $3500, but that figure must include cables/interconnects, and a new stand. I don't want to go first class on the cabling right now, and I have picked out a nice Bush tower for $358 to diplay my new system. Tomorrow, I have an appointment at Galen Carol Audio in San Antonio. This dealer carries a wide variety of audiophile gear. I should be able to audition amps and CDP's by Jolida, Shanling, Cayin, Antique Sound Lab, Creek, SimAudio among others. Here is a link to his line list: http://www.gcaudio.com/products/lineList.html Unfortunately, the amp that I have been most curious about is the Jolida JD1501RC, and it is not in stock, but he has one coming within the next two weeks. When I spoke with Mr Carol yesterday, he said I could audition the amp at home. I may wait till then to purchase, because the hybrid just seems to be fit the best of both worlds. I am not a tinkerer, so tube rolling or other modding is not something I am all fired up about. If I could find a SS int amp with pleasing sound, I actually would prefer going that route. It is just that the hollow state amps I have heard in the past were so pleasing to my ear. Tomorrow's listening should go a long way in helping me decide which way to go. |
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I took any offense. There certainly wasn't any taken. |
OMG, I hate stories where the wife gets the analog in a divorce. Does she at least listen to it or was that pure spite??? As much as I hated losing my vinyl and tapes and other stuff too, it was either that or she was going to go after my pickup truck. She hated almost all my music collection, and only wanted to have my vinyl to get what she could for it. All in all, I came out smelling like a rose. She got my old Harman Kardon HK-495i receiver, HK TD-262 cassete deck, old JVC turntable, and Sony CD changer. The receiver and the cd changer had problems she was not aware of, so I got to at least stick it back to her a little. :) |
I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it. More good advice. I now have the $3500 ready budget, but I have no intentions of spending the money tomorrow. There is just too many choices to go off half cocked. |
Thanks for the offer. Much appreciated. My room is 14x13, with the speakers place near the 13' wall corners, and pulled out about 3' and away from the side wall about 1', per Klipsch guidelines. |
06-18-08: Phaelon
Mapleshade sells modified vintage Scott tube components including a $1495 receiver. I haven't heard these myself but they sound interesting and are offered with 30-day money back. Perhaps another member can post regarding their quality. I would be very interested in hearing any opinions too. |
I just returned home from my jaunt into San Antonio to do my first day of shopping and listening. Unfortunately, I came home quite disappointed.
My first stop was an appointment at Galen Carol Audio. Mr Carol was very nice and professional, and obviously knew his business. I was disappointed however by the lack of components that I was most interested in, and that fell into my price range. He had no tube gear in stock, which was a major disappointment. He advised that the amps that I would audition would smoke the tube competition in their price range. My first listen was to:
Creek Classic 5350 SE int amp
Creek Destiny DCP
Splendor S8e speakers
Excellent soundstage and detail. I was very impressed, but he did not have the Creek Classic CDP, which is more into my price range, so I have no idea how much difference there would be. Mr Carol assured me that the difference was slight.
The only other audtion was:
SimAudio Moon I-3 int amp
SimAudio Moon CD-1 CDP
a pair of very expensive and very tall electrostatic speakers of which the brand name now escapes me
It was an awesome listening experience. It is the first stereo I have listened to that when I closed my eyes, I thought I was listening to a live performance. I would have sworn the female vocalist was singing 20 feet in front of me. Although the bass was accurate to the nth degree, it was not very deep, but the sound was so beautiful, I did not really miss it. Again, the problem was lack of the particular component in my price range, in this case, the SimAudio Moon I-1.
My next stop was to Bjorn's to hear the Rega and PS Audio gear. They also carry McIntosh, but I did not listen, as it would have only bummed me out even more since it is hopelessly out of my budget. What I did hear:
PS Audio A-100 power amp
PS Audio P-200 preamp
PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
Rega Saturn CDP
B&W 803S speakers
I was fairly impressed with the sound here also, but not quite as much so as with the earlier rigs. Again, it is the Rega Apollo that is in my price range, and they did not have it in stock. The deal offered: If I buy the PS Audio amp/preamp, the DAC would be thrown in free for a total of $2000. The Rega would have to be special ordered because they did not have one in silver to match the PS Audio components. Also, I was not impressed by the spartan appearance of the PS Audio pieces. They were small and plain. I want good sound, but I also want something that is at least a little sexy.
I so wanted to hear some tube amps/CDP's. You would think that in a city of 1.2 million people, there would be a shop with at least something in stock to hear. With this being the case, I am not sure what to do now. Only one other shop in San Antonio, Blue Marble Audio, carries high end audio with brands that I have not heard, but when I spoke with the salesman, he said they did not have any tube gear in stock either. Should I take a chance on purchasing something from online new or used but of excellent repute without listening first, but based on advice from you folks? I may have to make that decision, especially since I live so far out in the boondocks. |
06-18-08: Mrjstark
14X13 is quite small but it is possible to get a decent sound out of it. What is the purpose of this room and how much freedom do you have to optimize it to get the best sound possible (Wife Acceptance Factor).
If you were willing to buy all or almost all used I could recommend two or three systems that would work. Those would be from my personal experience only. But I would still try your local audiophile club......I am sure there is at least one in or near your area. The room is my bedroom. My wife is now an ex (see earlier post in this thread), so that is not a problem. The living room or den is not an option. One of the things I shopped for today was items to experiment with the room acoustics. I bought some carpet panels to place on the walls temporarily in primary reflections points. I also upgraded my interconnects to a higher quality Monster Cable, THx certified cable. I just finished listening to Massive Attack's Mezzanine album, and immediately noticed added improvement, especially in the lower mids and all the lows. Highs are also less bright. The heavy bass drum on the opening track was less boomy and much tighter than before. Liz Fraser's vocals have never sounded so sweet on this system before. Soundstage is better, but still not what I would consider real deep. I believe the room can be worked with. |
I have made my purchase! After spending ALL of my free time over the last week perusing the internet for information and reviews, reading Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, I have purchased the following through Underwood HiFi:
JoLida JD302BRC Int Amp, new, stock
JoLida JD100 CDP, with level one mod
Wireworld Equinox 5² Interconnects
Wireworld Oasis 5² Speaker Cables
Reasons I decided on this system:
1. I just really wanted to try out a tubed amp.
I was very impressed by Wally Liederman. After describing my budget, and what components I was replacing and keeping, I told him I was leaning toward the JoLida JD1502RC Hybrid, or the JD502BRC, paired with the JD100 CDP. I told him how much I liked the sound of the vintage Scott amps when I was younger. I told him that I had listened to the SimAudio, Creek and PS Audio amps, and although impressed with their clarity, detail and soundstage, it was not the sound I was looking for. He could have led me to any of a good number of other amps that he carries, but he immediately recommended that I instead seriously consider the JoLida JD302BRC. He said he was very familiar with my Klipsch speakers model, and that this pairing would be much better than the other two, as it would better limit the brightness of the horn tweeter, and the fifty watt power output would be more than enough. He said the CD player would also be a fine match.
I also inquired about modding the two pieces. After the pricing was done including the level one modding, it was just outside my budget, and would not allow me to purchase a new rack for the new system. I said lets just go with modding the amp. He immediately recommended that I instead have the CDP modded if one or the other. It would be advantageous in that I should want the best possible source signal as the highest priority. If necessary, I could tube roll later with the amp. This made great sense to me.
2. I wanted to buy new for my first system.
Because of the initial cash outlay, having the piece of mind that comes with that 2 year warranty was a major factor.
3. I wanted modern components.
I strongly considered going the vintage H.H. Scott route, and it would have likely saved a good amount of money. However, I just balked at having something that old for my first foray above mid-fi, even if it did still play well or was rebuilt. Anyway, I still may purchase a Scott amp just for the pleasure of owning it in the not too distant future.
4. Highest quality at it's price point.
I had a very hard time finding negative reviews of this amp or CDP. It seemed every review basically said the same thing, "Is it the best sounding amp? No. Is it the best bang for the buck above the mid-fi level for new components? Yes." The CDP was also very well liked by reviewers and owner comments that I read.
I also read many positive comments on Wally Leiderman and Underwood HiFi.
I should have it here in a week or two. |
I just want to thank all you fine folks that advised me over the past week. I look forward to sharing my viewpoints in the future, and also look forward to reading yours.
I know many of you recommended taking it slow, and that was good advice. The problem I had was that I had little chance of actually auditioning any HS amps in my region. Since I already liked that sound, I just felt I had to try it out. If I don't like it, then I will learn from it and sell it to someone else who might enjoy it.
I really believe I have made a good choice based on my circumstances.
BTW, I came in at $800 under budget, so I do indeed still have enough left to look at racks. I am a pretty fair woodworker, and have the tools. I may look for a good plan and just build one, or study others and come up with my own plan. |
Run the gear with the tubes that come with it for 300-400 hours, so you get a feel for it. Then stuff the old tubes in. The CDP is coming with a level one mod. The Chinese 12AX7's are being replaced with Svetlanas as just part of the upgrade package. I met a Russian girl once named Svetlana. Love that name for some reason. Walter Liederman basically gave me similar advice about the tube upgrades with the amp when I made the purchase. Appreciate a second on that. |
Well folks, I finally received all my components and furniture and finished setting it up last night. In addition to the JoLida JD302BRC int amp and the JoLida JD100 CDP, I purchased an APC H10 power conditioner, Wireworld Oasis 5 speaker cables, and Wireworld Equinox 5 interconnects. For furniture, I selected Studio Tech HF3 TV stand and matching HF4 audio component rack with heavy gauge steel tubing.
The StudioTech furniture went together easier than any I have ever assembled, not even requiring a single tool, and is very sturdy with excellent fit and finish. Each shelf easily holds the weight of any of my components.
I set up the power center, then hooked up all the other components. All went without a hitch, but I had to use my old speaker cable, Monster Cable original clear jacket heavy guage. Unfortunately, the Wireworld speaker cable that Walter at Underworld HiFi recommended for my system and my Klipsch speakers was for bi-wiring, and my speakers do not have that capability. The large spade terminals on the cables would not fit on the Klipsch binding posts, as they are too close together. I suppose I will have to try and find a buyer for the cables on Audiogon.
I fired up the components and checked my tube bias, and then selected as my first CD to listen to, Open Canvas' s/t album on the Waveform label. Anyone who is familiar with this label knows how beautifully produced their recordings can be. I was blown away right from the start with the difference in this system and my old HK system. It was superior in every facet, with the exception of deep bass, although close. The bass was much tighter, but not felt quite as much. Mids and highs were rich and detailed, in fact about as good as I have ever heard with speakers in this price range. The harshness I experienced with my old system was gone.
I also played Charles Mingus' "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady", Robin Trower's "Essential Robin Trower", Kate Bush's "Sensual World," and Massive Attack's "Mezzanine". The latter sounded just incredible. My only wish would be just a little more low end, especially on recordings such as Kate Bush's "Sensual World".
To you tube enthusiasts, what would you recommend as far as a tweak to have a little more bass? Should I try tube rolling, or just buy a good sub-woofer? The amp has the stock Chinese tubes, 4-EL34's, 2-12AX7's and 2-12AT7's.
Overall, I am very pleased. One other question though. I know there is a burn-in period. Can anyone give me an idea of just how much the sound quality should increase after the burn-in? |
Actually, the more I listen to the new system, the more I realize that the bass response is just more accurate than what I have ever been used to in the past. There is just no boominess at all. I believe I may be mistaking accuracy and good tight bass response to the sound somehow lacking it. The more I listen, the more I am appreciating this system. |
Dcstep said: "adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot." Right after reading this piece of advice, I went down to the local WallyWorld and bought a 5'x 8' heavy rug and placed it centered between the two speakers and a couple feet out. Now I hear tighter bass and clearer mids with less bright highs, and my room looks a little better too. Although it sounds better, I am totally psyched about getting some new audio gear. Has anybody had any experience with the hybrid amps like the Jolida JD 1501RC. What about this amp matched with the Jolida JD 100A Tube Compact Disc Player. At just under $1000 for the CD player, and the amp at $825, the price sounds good. |
Macrojack said: Feeling overwhelmed is going to cost you money. It will cause you to run straight into the arms of a waiting dealer. An audio dealer is just like a card dealer. His job is to take advantage of the difference between what he knows and what you know. The benefit available to you on Audiogon is the option of bypassing the dealer and being self taught with guidance from us. The problem that you will encounter with us is determining who has good advice and who is merely recommending what they like. This is the reason I am here on this forum. Most people here have nothing to gain other than some satisfaction that they feel by helping out a fellow hobbyist. I have some cynicism about merchants in general, and I work in retail as well. I very much appreciate each and every one of you that has responded for your advice. I intend to research all components that have been listed if possible, and I will listen to all that I can when I go to the big city to audition equipment day after tomorrow. My gut feeling is that most any component with a price tag of over $1000 should be an improvement in sound over what I have now. Also, going used is certainly not out of the question. |
The unenlightened should never walk into a dealership IMO. Too many of the salespeople one encounters are little better than snake oil salesmen, and even if they seem to be helping you initially, they might be setting you up for a future hit. I know this is harsh and to those salesmen who are on the square - I'm sorry, but you, more than most, know it's true.
My advise would be to look into an Audio Society or club in your area. Find a local mentor, or even one here on Audiogon; you'll find some really generous people here.
Read a lot of forums and you'll get a feel for the members. There are people on Agon who I've never met that I hold in very high regard; some of them can be a little terse at times but there good intentions will be revealed if your persistent. LOL. Good luck. I appreciate the advice, and it is why I am here. Since I posted the OP, in addition to receiving advice here and on other forums, I have subscribed to the Audiogon blue book, read seemingly countless posts and reviews, researched at least 30 manufacturers product lines, checked out the virtual systems, and read up on technical details, all to help me become more enlightened. Even so, I am not so naive to think that I have as many of the answers as I know I should have at this point. That is why I am always happy to receive you folks advice, even if it sometimes appears a little hard. On 6/18, I am spending most of the day in various San Antonio audio shops. I will trust my ears to tell me what I need to know more so than any salesperson. I am somewhat of a skeptic by nature. |
One more suggestion. If you want to fool around with vintage tube gear, I would at least look into something like H.H.Scott from the 60's . My buddy has one and I loved its middle range, liquid, musical and very seductive sound. In fact, I liked it so much that I am getting one for myself. I will pick it up this Friday. I will have Bob Backert (my favorite tech.) look at it and see what can be done to make it even better. I bought it for $300 ( Scott 299B integrated) and small mod performed by B.Backert shouldn't cost more then $300-$500. I would guess that then it should compete with the best. I will post my impresions in my system when the time permits. After today, I certainly am not ruling that option out. As I earlier stated, I have had two lengthy experiences listening to tube gear, and one of those was a Scott, which I loved. I thought the sound of the equipment I listened to today was far superior to what I now own, but there was no question to my ear that it was SS. |
I can send you some links so you can read some articles on some of those products for the next few hours or days. And then dig some more. Send away. I would love to read them. Gracias. |
Re not affording room treatments: you might want to consider some of the cheaper foam squares that are available - e.g. Sonex and other squares that are easy to place on a wall. Just adding this kind of thing at the first reflection points on your side walls can help with brightness and listener fatigue too. What I'm saying is that you might not need to invest much to get a significant improvement in that area. I think Sonex is the answer for me at this point. Thanks for the input. |
Well, I was not surprised that the bass response did not knock my socks off, as I did a lot of research before my purchase. This aspect of tube amps was known to me in advance. As I said in my earlier post, I absolutely love the mids and highs, and only feel I would like a "little" more bass. In fact, depending on the recording, it is often just fine.
I agree with the advice to give the amp plenty of time to run in before doing anything additionally. There is always the subwoofer option later on. If need be, I will find a good used quality SW through Audiogon.
Someone mentioned the planar speakers that I heard in San Antonio. They were actually powered by a SS amp, and sounded more incredibly lifelike than any speaker I had heard to date, but they lacked deep bass. In fact, the shop owner had just received a new JL Audio SW to pair up with them, but he did not have it connected yet. I would have loved to have heard that system with that SW. |
