My 2.1 set up only pleasures me when i sit or walk in the sweet zone. If I have guests over, I dislike sharing my position so they can experience the sound stage. Is there anything one can do to share the sweet spot? Is a 4.1 or 4.2 set up the solution? Does the speaker, gear, position and set up dictate overall experience?(I'm sure it does) How do you guys share the sweet spot? Is it ok to be sweet spot selfish? I feel that being an "audiophile" is also sharing the experience. Your thoughts please. Thank You!
I always have my guests sit in the sweet spot. For them its other-worldly. For me its a trip because I seldom listen from anywhere else.
With couples the best way to share is the woman sits between the mans legs leaning back with her head on his chest. With guys you sit or stand directly behind the sweet spot with your head close to the same level. To sit in a chair place it directly behind the sweet spot. I've also had people lay on the floor leaning back against the sweet spot chair ottoman.
Basically anything that puts you on the centerline is better than being off-axis. But I've had parties where people liked to sit along the walls, because the bass is so freaking awesome. Not smooth and even like in the sweet spot, but awesome, and not everyone is a nit-picky audiophile!
If I have guests, yes, I let them....well, i make them, sit in the sweet spot. But, to be honest, it is rare that I have guests over to listen to music, so I almost never have to share. If it’s just watching TV via my 5.2 set-up, it doesn’t really matter where they, or I, sit.
I always let guests sit in the hot seat. You can share the image by having seats in front and behind the hot seat which is bit odd in most rooms. I'm not sure but I think an ambiophonic system can image in different locations. It is definitely not for digital phobic audiophiles as a fair amount of DSP magic is required. I can put the sweet spot anywhere in the room and will put it at my desk in the far corner of the room when I am working. This is done by changing speaker delay and phase/time relationships. It is already programmed in. I just have to push a button.
Mapman, the same rules of acoustics apply also to Ohm speakers. If a speaker "images" in different locations at the same time it most likely has no image at all. I went and reviewed the literature on Ambiophonic reproduction and it also requires the listener to be equidistant to both speakers. It also requires the frequency of both speakers to be exactly the same so room control is essential. I actually have ambiophonic programming in my Tact and I would love to try it but I can not get my speakers the requisite 30 degrees apart as my theater screen is between them and 60 degrees does not work at all.
This will be somewhat counter-intuitive, but with some horn speakers the sweet spot width can quite wide. First a bit of background:
The ear localizes sound by two mechanisms: Arrival time and intensity. With most system setups, as you move off to one side, the near speaker which naturally "wins" arrival time also "wins" intensity because you are now more on-axis of that near speaker. So typically the center image moves over to the side even further than you do, and if you move over far enough the soundstage can "collapse" to the near speaker such that you're virtually listening to mono.
Suppose we take a pair of horn speakers which have a uniform radiation of say 90 degrees wide (-6 dB @ 45 degrees off-axis to either side) and toe them in about 45 degrees, such that their axes criss-cross in front of the listening area. Now something interesting happens as we move off to one side: The near speaker still inevitably "wins" arrival time, but the FAR speaker "wins" intensity! This is because we are now well off-axis of the near speaker, but pretty much on-axis of the far speaker. These two different localization mechanisms approximately offset one another, such that we can still get a center image and a reasonable spread for the instruments even from well off the centerline. The key to this working is, that near speaker’s output must fall off smoothly and rapidly as we move off to the side. Therefore this technique is unlikely to work well with most speakers.
With this technique you can let your guest have the center sweet spot and you can sit to one side of them without the soundstage collapsing. Yes it will still be better right smack in the middle, but it won’t suck off to the side. At audio shows I use this configuration and when possible place one chair up against a side wall, to the outside of the speakers. People instinctively avoid that chair, unless the room is full. Then after the song is over I ask the person in that chair whether they could still hear a decent spread to the instruments, and invariably they say yes, and usually go on to say how pleasantly surprising it was. Some even say it sounded like they were in the middle, which imo is an exaggeration, but still an indication of how well the technique can work.
The idea that wide sweet spot speakers lose detail is really more of an in-room problem.
In the right room, these speakers can be very satisfying to guest listeners and those sitting on the proverbial throne.
The Magico S1s, which are not faultless, are great exemplars of this.
Duke's suggestion is another one that's been proven.
The alternatives, say, ESLs like the Sanders or Martin Logans are the opposite side of this. Very tight dispersion, amazing detail, and a sweet spot that's really a point.
If a speaker "images" in different locations at the same time it most likely has no image at all.
Well I can assure you that is not true. Listen to a pair of Ohm, mbl German Physics or other good quality omni designs. The imaging and soundstage (when set up properly as always) is top notch. I have several pair of Ohms and have owned a pair for 30 years now and can vouch for that. I’ve heard mbl set up optimally as well and that is in a class of its own in regards to 3-d soundstage and imaging from most any location in the room. You do need a very special room for that with those though.
I have two chairs side by side. When she complains, I slide it back over about 8" that puts me dead center.. Just don't tell her.. She's happy.
I can always tell when my chairs been moved. 1. the floor is marked, 2. The Rolling Stones, and Rod Stewart LP are out.. Her chairs is in the middle. I found her RE-taping a spot, gettin' all pissed because, her tape was pulled, she pulled it.. and didn't mark it.. 2 hours to get happy.. Good ears. She learned 25 years ago. Smart Lady...You know for a GIRL, anyways. Yea she's standing over my shoulder, yukin' it up right now... Feb, was 45 years, been together.. Man that's a long time.. She agrees..LOL
When we concert in the backyard, 6-9 people, get a great spot
ONE WALL! Behind 4 speakers! 25 H X 60 W and 40 foot deep.
No back, No lid, No sides for 120 feet. Pretty nice
I always order the guest (or guests) to sit in the sweet spot. Hey, I'm always in the sweet spot. I can easily live with my system's patently miserable off-center sound (I joke!) so that guests might get a clue as to how wonderful the high-end experience is.
@mijostyn No way I'm letting anyone in that sweet spot. I was joking of course, which of course doesn't work on the internet. I'm very generous with my sweet spot, truth be told.
If I have guests around, there is more to do and talk about and there is a lots of noise, laughter, etc. that nobody really considers listening to music, much less caring about the sweet spot. If anyone is actually ever interested in listening to the music, that person gets a sweet spot. The only way a guest should be treated.
If erik_squires’ statements about Magico and Revel are correct, then the room surely needs to be carefully set up. I have Revel speakers and sweet spot, in a completely untreated room, is pinpoint. At the same time, who has time to sit in the sweet spot anyway?
I only let music lovers in the sweet spot. If they're not music lovers, there's no point to it. I have no audiophile visitors. Amazingly, my jazz loving friends instinctively make a bee-line to the sweet spot. They've never heard the terms 'sweet spot' or 'imaging' as it applies to music..and don't care. All they know is that something really special is happening while they're sitting in 'that' chair. Only the jazz lovers instinctively go there and sit for a while.
I agree 100% about the Magico S1. I have a Pair of Magico S1MKII and the off axis frequency response is damn good. The best part is they disappear really well and throw a great soundstage too. In the sweet spot they are truly incredible. They have great bass for a 2-way too. I am going to add subs to them later but for now they are great with the Hegel H360 and dCS Bartok. I had though about trading them in for a pair of Rockport Atria II but the S1 is more detailed to my ears it looks like if I want to upgrade it will be a pair of S3MKII or another Magico. Once you get used to the sound of Magico it is hard to go to another speaker.
There are many speakers that give you a wide soundstage. IMO, a lot of this has to do with speaker placement and room treatments too. You can take a Revel Salon2 and put it in a bad room and you will get bad sound. Similar to what you hear at audio shows when the rooms are too small for the speakers
I always have my guests sit in the sweet spot. For them its other-worldly. For me its a trip because I seldom listen from anywhere else.
With couples the best way to share is the woman sits between the mans legs leaning back with her head on his chest. With guys you sit or stand directly behind the sweet spot with your head close to the same level. To sit in a chair place it directly behind the sweet spot. I've also had people lay on the floor leaning back against the sweet spot chair ottoman.
Basically anything that puts you on the centerline is better than being off-axis. But I've had parties where people liked to sit along the walls, because the bass is so freaking awesome. Not smooth and even like in the sweet spot, but awesome, and not everyone is a nit-picky audiophile!
music system: two person wide center image has always been my goal. I want to enjoy my music, especially excellent recordings, excellent imaging with a friend, small table between 2 chairs, feet up optionally. chairs rather than a sofa, the chairs can be angled toward the center, easier than sitting crooked on a sofa.
video system: sofa, 3 person wide center image is the goal. feet up, end tables. coffee table lifts up for dining height if/when desired)
I can thoroughly enjoy my music side by side with a friend (few as you know are capable of listening longer than 10 seconds), or video from anywhere on the sofa, left of center being my spot. (coffee warmer, cold beer, remotes bin, I’m left handed), Donna same on the right, coffee or water not beer.
the specific wide center image of these dbx soundfield 100’s are the key to my video system’s success.
basically, the speaker you are closest to is aimed more directly to the opposite side. you are closer to the left speaker, however you get more direct sound volume from the right speaker, ... it works so well, when alone, I maintain my left position, moving to center no real advantage, they are terrific video speakers.
they are quite good when playing 5.1 or full range 2 channel video content, or simply put pandora on the tv, no image. We watch a lot of music tv, voice, idol, songland, world of dance, you tube music videos, ... the sound of tv has always been important. Way back when I grabbed the wires inside my old tv’s, ran to better speakers, the signal was very good even back then, the included speakers were not, who knew?
video: a great deal comes from the center channel speaker which I prefer directly below the image, (attempts at above not as good). btw, a center speaker behind the screen/image (as long as sound can get out), can work quite well.
....................
music, 2 channel, no center speaker, you experiment with toe in bit by bit until it’s right, similar to the dbx, off to the left, closer to left speaker, but right speaker aimed directly at you. The dbx has 3 small tweeters from 3 angled face panels for dispersion, 2 channel speakers typically do not, so wide dispersion tweeters are important for music.
Of course, 2 channel music, I sit dead center when alone, but my video, I stay in my left spot, never aware of any difference from sitting in the middle.
1. wide dispersion horns help of course
2. aim left speaker very slightly to the right of center
3. aim right speaker slightly to the left of center.
4. tilt speakers back slightly (their design or your solution.
now rear/side/floor/ceiling reflections have been altered/reduced so that direct sounds are maximized from reflected.
I’ll ask my guests to sit in the sweet spot, then I have to ask them To actually sit all the way back in the chair and put their feet up And get comfortable. Then I let them know that the music sounds better if they close their eyes! Then I ask them what they want me to play for them. Then I get them their drink of choice 😁
My listening room is too small for anything but 1 sweet spot so I’ll sit next to them on the ground.
I’ve helped 3 different friends pick out systems for their homes; usually wireless LS50’s with a sub or two. I’ve had great listening sessions with them in their homes and it’s extremely rewarding to see their minds blown because of what the are hearing, and it’s equally satisfying to know that it’s something they can enjoy now anytime the want to!
Oh, and my favorite speakers are MBL 101E’s and they sound fantastic all over the room. I want to try some OHMs some day because I think they are the closest I could get within a reasonable budget and mapman, whom I respect his oppinion, won’t quit talking about them 😁
I used to give my guests the sweet spot and sit directly behind them. Yea I was being a good host but lousy company. It is taken more than a little time and a few bucks but now I have a sweet spot over 6 feet wide so I have two very comfortable chairs side by side" Additional guests sit behind the two front chairs on barstools with back rests.
Here's my two cents. Regarding he OHM Acoustics "omnidirectional" Walsh speakers, those used to be fully omnidirectional, single-driver, full-range with no crossovers, in a sealed box enclosure (Ohm A, F models). Ohm later used 'vented' designs and reduced the upper bandwidth of the main driver, added a supertweeter for over 8 kHz. Sensitivity increased, power handling also. And, it goes deep into the bass.
The driver can of the Walsh 5000 (and some other Ohms) has sound absorption pads behind the driver to reduce the speaker output to the rear, which reduces the sound reflection off the wall behind the speaker. The speaker is then not fully omnidirectional, but widely so toward the front. This helps make the speakers act more like two sound sources not four, due to the reduced reflection from the wall behind the speakers.
Imaging can be heard around the room. Note that the imaging is not exactly the same everywhere, but does give a good impression. Great for home theater use. When sitting on centerline, they're even more impressive.
I have only two chairs in my room: one sweet spot and one directly behind the sweet spot chair. In the sweet spot you get enveloped by the music and are able to peer deep into it. In the secondary chair you get more of a wall-of-sound presentation. All guests, including my wife, get the sweet spot and control of the music and volume for as long as they wish. I am the volume knob turner to their preference of volume and also act as their waiter for whatever they wish to drink.
My test for wide sweet spot is moving from center to outside the speaker assessing how much it changes tonally as well as moving around the room and into another room. Maybe moving the speakers a bit further apart and pointed straight into the room when you have more people over may help if you want to give all yours guests a flavor of the speakers performance rather than give it up for one or two people.
In my dedicated, acoustically treated listening room, this is what works for me. One guest only. Guest always gets the sweet spot, I sit beside. Guest always picks music, I always choose volume, unless guest requests louder or softer. Enjoyed reading all the above posts, nice to hear how others deal with the problem of "the sweet spot". Focus on the music...
I used to give my guests the sweet spot and sit directly behind them. Yea I was being a good host but lousy company. It is taken more than a little time and a few bucks but now I have a sweet spot over 6 feet wide so I have two very comfortable chairs side by side" Additional guests sit behind the two front chairs on barstools with back rests.
I don't think you really believe you have a sweet spot that is 6 ft. wide. You might have achieved balanced sound so that it is "good" for any listener in that window. But I assure you that when you sit on axis and equidistant between the two speakers, the sound is better than anything on either side of that small area. Just no getting around that.
Right you are, Oz. It is a physical impossibility. The sweet spot is after called the sweet spot, not pleasant zone, okay area, better than being in the other room, etc. That said, never underestimate the audiophile. With enough time and money it just might be possible to make things sound equally bad all over the place. Or failing that then at least over a 6 ft wide area.
If a guest shows interest or I have another musician over they are always offered the prime seat and choice of music. After their choices are played I ask if they would entertain giving some of my favorites a go. Nine out of Ten times I can see the expressions of joy and bewilderment that it is all coming from just two speakers and not a multi channel set up. The joy of making music and sharing music is of much higher importance to me than taking the prime seat. I can do that any other time. To share a musical, moving experience and feel the sense of enjoyment for someone not into this hobby is quite rewarding to me.
On that rare occasion when I'm sharing I wouldn't dream of sitting in the sweet spot. The entire point in that case would be to share the experience. Well, to show off the system, too. I usually sit to the side, after all, it's still music.
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