Footers under my speakers double the perceived value of my speakers!
My first experience with putting footers under my speakers was with Tannoy Westminster Royals. With some difficulty, I put Mapleshade heavy footers under them. I was amazed. These $20k speakers, all of a sudden, became $30+ speakers! These days, I am into Stillpoints. Same thing-even more. My $30k speakers now sound like $60k speakers. I mean the imaging, the definition, the bass and everything just sounds fantastically Improved. I just put on the Stillpoints yesterday. This morning I jumped out of bed early just to be able to turn on the stereo and be floored. BTW- my speakers are 200 lbs and the Stillpoints Minis are strong enough. Pretty cheap for such an improvement!
Wow ,I don't know what your on but ,give me some .Ok you think you can make your speakers sound like they have increased there valve by double.With heavy duty maple.footers .Whatever flows your boat .
I put granite slabs under my speakers, which are on a hardwood floor, and the sound did clean up noticeably. Best part about it was, the guy at the granite store gave them to me for free.
Yes folks, vibration control is a thing. From back in the early 1990's people were trying all kinds of things, everything from tennis balls and phone books to bricks and boards, and noticing an effect on the sound. Not always good. When it was good though it could be really good. My first set of Black Diamond Racing Cones were so good I started carrying them around in my pocket trying them under everything. One time there was a $5k Sony CD player, and if you can remember $5k was a lot of money back in 1993. It seemed unlikely three $20 Cones would do anything, especially considering how built like a tank that Sony was. But no, it was amazing. Not some struggle to hear it might be a little better, no, this was like a whole component upgrade.
Again, this was early 1990's. So the surprise is not that you're hearing a huge improvement. BDR was huge, and that was 30 years ago. Everything else has improved immensely in that time, it defies all reason to think vibration control would have not improved as well. What surprises me, again and again, is how many audiophiles are so out of date they still don't get it.
Not you mglik, you got it as soon as you heard it. But these other ones. The ones with their heads in the sand. Sad. So very very sad.
And AGAIN............Does millercarbon have stock in Black Diamond Racing cones? I have used them and, while beneficial in some applications, I reserve space in my pockets for essential things like car keys. There is no one answer to isolation/vibration control. Some products work better than others depending on equipment and environment.
Well, I gotta say, I was a non-believer in anti-vibration/isolation pads. But no longer. I have a difficult audio room that is large, heavy padded furniture, lots of glass, high slanted ceiling, etc. I just didn't feel that I was getting good tight bass. The speakers sit on tile over a suspended floor. They sounded a bit "tubby" in the bass. So I thought why not try some pads. Amazingly the improvements went beyond the bass. Yes, the bass tightened up but I also got more clarity from the imaging. Hard to describe but they went from "very nice" to "wow" in all aspects. And, my wife also noticed the difference. Hearing is believing.
Fat or muddy bass obscures detail in the midrange which then also negatively affects imaging. Very common with suspended plywood floors. Isolation helps clean that up. I use Auralex Subdude iso pads under my floorstanders and the difference is much as heardthat describes.
Unfortunately isolation does not increase speaker value. It just lets you hear more of the speakers and less of the floor.
mgliks, The thing I do not see described is the flooring on which the Tannoys sit. i.e. carpet or hard surface? Also slab or joists? These two factors make a big difference. From the orgasmic description I am fairly sure you have a hard surface not on a slab.
I recently purchased the IsoAcoustics Gaia speaker footers and I was both stunned and impressed at what a positive difference that they made.
Of the four websites that sell them (Amazon, Audio Advisor, Music Direct & The Music Room), there are only user reviews on Amazon and Music Direct, with 89 of 99 Amazon reviews giving them 4 or 5 stars, while 28 of 28 Music Direct reviewers gave them 4 or 5 stars. I think it is statistically improbable that 93% of those purchasers are delusional.
Perhaps the highest compliment that I can give them is I think I have been cured of the need to upgrade any aspect of my system.
As @mitchagain said recently purchased the IsoAcoustics Gaia speaker footers and I was both stunned and impressed at what a positive difference that they made
I did the same for my tannoy arden and was a bit skeptical but the difference is mind blowing. Tight bass and midrange opens up. Even playing music quite loufly there is no transmission of bass vibration into wooden sprung floor speakers sit on
Scary how few audiophiles can arrive at correct conclusions regarding such things. The improvement is not due to vibration control, but to physically elevating the speaker. The speaker will sound far better with raised soundstage. Just one reason why smallish speakers are inferior. Tweak, tuning sellers certainly have your number, and the isolation authorities show their ignorance. :) If people are so easily led to false conclusions on this, it's no wonder they pursue insipid methods of system building.
Scary how few audiophiles can arrive at correct conclusions regarding such things. The improvement is not due to vibration control, but to physically elevating the speaker. The speaker will sound far better with raised soundstage. Just one reason why smallish speakers are inferior. Tweak, tuning sellers certainly have your number, and the isolation authorities show their ignorance. :) If people are so easily led to false conclusions on this, it’s no wonder they pursue insipid methods of system building.
Oh c’mon Doug-you know better. Every competent speaker designer understands the vertical and horizontal dispersion pattern of their speakers and proper listening position. They account for it 95% of the time. If anything, the height of the Gaia footers would raise most loudspeakers above the optimal height, not into. I have not tried every footer under every speaker and nobody else has either. I am sure, though, that the entire matter is loudspeaker and listening room dependent. Another thing that is certain is that most competent loudspeaker designers do not feel that horizontal compliance is a good idea. Spikes and coupling are the consensus of the engineers, not absorbers. I traded email with John Devore on the subject. He strongly advises against the idea for my O/93’s. My Spendor D7.2’s rely heavily on spikes. They are not the same speaker without the spikes,
I replaced the standard spikes on my towers with a set of Gaia isolation. Measuring the spikes vs. the Gaia, elevation was less than 1/4 inch. Improvement was remarkable. +1 for Gaia.
douglas_schroeder said: "Scary how few audiophiles can arrive at correct conclusions regarding such things. The improvement is not due to vibration control, but to physically elevating the speaker. The speaker will sound far better with raised soundstage. Just one reason why smallish speakers are inferior. Tweak, tuning sellers certainly have your number, and the isolation authorities show their ignorance. :) If people are so easily led to false conclusions on this, it's no wonder they pursue insipid methods of system building."
I am truly shocked by that comment Douglas. Can it be that with all of the hi end gear that you audition and are exposed to that you actually believe that these devices do no more than elevate speakers? If you have tried them and believe that; I no longer trust your judgement at all. If you haven't, you need to try them as soon as possible. Call it what you want, isolation, draining...whatever; but these devices have a dramatic effect on loudspeaker performance, and it is undeniable.
I'm using good old American steel under my stand mounts. Less than 1/4" they have elevated the speakers in position, and a lot in performance. Smalley wave springs on Ebay cost me under $20 shipped.
Isolation works very well for me.
All my electronics are isolated on springs, as is my sub.
I've used same speakers upstairs on suspended plywood and downstairs on solid foundation (thin but dense carpet and pad). Same height. The same isolation under the speakers does nothing on the solid concrete foundation.
What works for me with a heavy load (70 pounds of concrete) is the coupling-decoupling processus in the different densities materials i was using in sandwiches under my gear:
4 quartz feet -granite plate- sorbothane-granite plate-cork plate-bamboo plate- sorbothane- speakers or amplifier or dac...
They are on my desk with all the other component.... No vibration under my fingers....Not perfect but very efficient at low cost....
Hi-Fi for the poor is my motto... Homemade creation is my act.... :)
The IsoAcoustics website has an interesting interview with their CEO (Dave Morrison) being interviewed by someone from Music Direct; so, you get viewpoints from both a retailer and the manufacturer. Dave uses the adjective "smeared" a lot in the interview, which I find both accurate and interesting since that is a rarely used word in the audiophile vocabulary.
The fact that Dave started in "pro audio" might win over some skeptics, or how closely he has worked with Paul Barton of PSB speakers. What ultimately convinced me to buy the product is after Stereophile named it a "product of the year" in 2018, I never once saw this product show up on a used audio website, nor did I see any retailer ever put them on sale. Both seemed to be indicators of a good product and I'm glad I trusted my instincts....but, I wish I had of done so sooner.
I will be putting isolation products to the test in my room (again, as I have several times in the past, every time proving insipid/marginal) when I receive the anticipated amps that will be under review. They will be both new. One will be "burned in" by myself while the other will be new. One will have proper stand while the other will sit on a plywood plank on the carpet, one will have isolation devices underneath while the other will sit on its stock feet. I'm not going to proclaim what will happen, I will compare them.
This is just an example of the type of comparisons I run with gear. The last time I conducted such a comparison was between three different elements of an audio system, and that article, "Audiophile Law: Thou Shalt Not Overemphasize Burn In", can be seen at Dagogo.com. Oh, the accolades over burn in! Oh, how necessary, and how one can't possibly be serious if they don't burn in gear... Blah, blah, blah. I actually do comparisons regularly.
You think I haven't put such things to the test? My Vapor Audio Joule White speakers came with two sized spikes, and of differing materials. The larger spikes were a PITA to move the speaker around. I removed them and tried rubber hockey pucks. Yes, hockey pucks; no appreciable difference in sound quality. Why? because the speakers remained at the same height. Later, I put the speakers on casters due to ease of moving in and out of the room. Nice bump in performance from el cheapo casters! Immediately noticeable. If I were a sensationalist I would say it made them sound like speakers twice as expensive! The improvement was obvious, but not due to vibration control, but due to elevation of the speaker. Also, a nice bump in performance by putting some lifts in the back of the top module, thus changing the relative position of the baffles for mid/treble relative to bass. Were these astounding, amazing changes? No. People who make claims like that have no concept of the spectrum of performance and how little such things contribute.
I have better time to spend and better places to spend my money on audio than pucks and spikes. The real gains for audio are in the systems that are built, not the doodads that you stick around the room or underneath components or speakers. Note that I am not discussing analogue here, as I only use digital source. If you feel my methods as a reviewer are not good enough, so be it. There are plenty of other reviewers who will spend inordinate time on these things. Imo, they are getting you to waste your time and money versus spending it on superior methods of system building.
But, as I said, this all will be compared once again, even though I have done so several times in the past with assorted isolation devices.
Final thought; it's such a shame that as prestigious a speaker company as Tannoy can't get it right with their footers. Shame, shame. The world will be so happy to hear that you can get a speaker to sound like 2x the price by putting X brand isolation device under it!
I'm not interested in marginal improvements to audio systems. I spend time on things that vastly advance audio systems. I am also not interested in ranging argument about picking out phrases of my discussion to debate. You either agree or disagree, so be it. :)
Another available retailer is Crutchfield, which has 35 of 37 reviews of 4 or 5 stars; so, the satisfaction rate is still running at 93%. So, the reporting results are quite consistent.
Douglas, I have carefully read all of the above, and I have to conclude that you are much less informed than I had previously thought. The OP is correct from my experience with speakers and DACs. Good isolation/draining devices can make sonic improvements that are far from "trivial". I will freely admit that my system would benefit from room treatment which I have not done because I don't want to take down pictures, as well as the expense and experimentation needed; but I will not deny the benefit of doing so as many members have experienced and reported here. I don't respect you for the blind spot you have shown here, and I also think your tone is a bit pompous.
I’ve been advocating seismic isolation for speakers for some time, so I’m glad to hear of positive results from others. In my opinion some of the options mentioned above can be bettered. I’m not an advocate for either spikes or elastomer isolation. Springs and/or cup and rollers would give better results imo. All credit to Max Townshend and Sven Boenicke for advocating seismic isolation of speakers. I have experience of both and they make a great improvement to the sonic quality of the system. Actually I demonstrate with and without to customers.
There are effective ways of making your own set up which would be better than some of the more expensive proprietary products on the market. It would be worth taking a look at Ingress Engineering and using their solution with a platform of maple or slate. Geoff Kaits springs could also be used in an effective set up. For a ready made solution the Max Townshend Podiums are the way to go.
I only have experience with the Townsend Podiums. The bars incorporate the same isolators it seems. You could use them combined with a suitable platform material. Every material will have its own sonic signature, some will work better than others in your particular system. Same can be said of isolation of the components. Max’s Pods could also be used effectively with a bit of care and attention to detail/insight. We use Townshend Podiums when using Cube speakers.
Sven Boenicke’s approach is different. He hangs his speakers on cables at the back combined with a cup and roller incorporated at the front bottom of the speaker.
Two different approaches but both very free floating when set up correctly.
mglik, I'm just curious exactly how $20K, $30K and $60K speakers sound different? Does the price the manufacturer charges for the speaker somehow change or improve the sound? Just asking...
Btw these ideas of seismic isolation that I recommend can also be applied to your audio furniture with great benefits. Again a lot of the designs on the market can be bettered by incorporating the same devices I recommend for speakers. Best to design and make/have made your own designs, like we do.
BR3098, indeed price is not a sole governor of sound quality. I have £10k speakers which will outperform much much more expensive speakers. I have mains cables at £100 that are the equal of cables costing x20 or more. I have a USB cable that costs £700 and outperforms £3k USB cables.
roxy54, as said previously, I am not debating my observations.
Addendum to previous post: In addition to the above future comparison I will conduct, I will also have one amp warmed up vs. the other cold, and one amp will have cables that are "settled", vs. the other which will have them disturbed by removing them and placing them back on again prior to comparison.
All of these have been claimed by some to be powerful causes of change in systems. What would it mean if they were grouped, supposedly inducing a high degree of change, and there was no distinction between the two setups? I like approaching such topics with a means to make a clear determination of whether an activity/method is worth investing time and money.
As I have already demonstrated in my former article that paying attention to burn in for SS electronics is not productive, this article will focus on support and isolation, and will retest the burn in results as well. The following will be compared:
Plywood plank on floor vs. amp stand Isolation devices underneath vs. none "Settled" cables vs. cables removed and reattached Cable risers for speaker cables vs. none Burned in amp vs. new Weight atop amp vs. none Warmed up amp vs. cold start
Surely, since these are all accepted as inducements to change in audio systems, the difference between the two setups should theoretically be profound! Comparison will tell. What might some of the implications be if all these inducements to change were found to be insipid? Might it influence a persons' perspective in regard to their use? OTOH, if there was a significant/easily audible change, what cause it and why? Further comparisons in isolation would be warranted.
I take the time to do such comparisons, as it cuts through a lot of fog in terms of what is efficacious in system building. My apologies for sounding pompous. Surely we are not all so gullible as to think that a speaker system will attain even a 1-2% holistic improvement in performance by elevating it on a puck or spike. Would anyone care to measure said speaker with/without stands and see if there is ANY measurable difference in performance?
There is a tremendous amount of murky, nebulous, unsubstantiated fact in audiophilia. Stands and isolation devices are treated similarly to platter material, tone arm material, etc. It's all anecdotal. Big changes, huge difference, monumental... How about some comparisons side by side? Not gonna happen in most cases. Well, I do comparisons, so I have a pretty strong opinion. :)
BTW, I attempt to remain open to the results and change my opinion if merited. For a long time I had concluded that bi-wiring of speakers was universally superior. Recently, I had a case, the first and only to date, where the high quality jumpers with single wiring was superior. So, I had to backtrack on that.
I am willing to revise, say a "mea culpa" if necessary. But, if it happens, it will be due to comparison between the two states I mentioned, not audiophile social pressure. :)
squeak, Bless you! I could not have said it better! Mr. Schroeder still mistakenly sets these support devices very low on the scale of importance to the final sound of a well tuned system. Where have you been Douglas? 1 or 2 percent? No, far more than that! A Sistrum platform changed the sound of my speakers, and it wasn't because of the height. Your measured results comment was nonsense Douglas. Perception is one thing and not all perceptions can be verified by measurement; and if they could, you'd be out of a job!
HI All i was looking at a set of footers Iso Acoustics Gaia 2 or 3 was informed that my speakers KEF R900 at 65lb each are at the high limit for theses but would work well and should i get stands for them too has anyone had experience with this product and would you use the stands with them. Thanks
Doug (Shroeder); I respect your opinion and agree with much of what you have said in this thread with the exception of the height theory, and on that, I was the first to disagree. Have you read or even just casually perused Jim Smith’s "Get Better Sound"? He advocates building a small platform for your listening seat because most speaker manufacturers have their dispersion pattern too high and most of us sit in chairs that are too low. In the absence of doing such an extremely cumbersome and non-WAF measure, he advocates tipping your loudspeaker slightly downward. Read his book on the subject for yourself. Do you dispute his knowledge and experience? I suggest you not. Next I am puzzled by this; you have twice referenced your intent to place isolation under electronics but that is not the topic here. Why not, as an opinionated well-recognized reviewer, buy or borrow some Gaias for your loudspeakers and tell us what you think? Then, if you report being non-plussed, it would mean something. This other guy who keeps chiming in with how many positives a product got on a website-oh my gosh-wtf? Do you not understand that the small number of "reviews" or "ratings" a product receives are not fake are heavily influenced by buyer’s bias? Incredible that you keep chiming in with that rubbish. And then finally, back to my original point. A loudspeaker, unlike any other component, has pistonic movement associated with it laterally. Speaker drivers with motors are pushing back and forth. The loudspeaker must resist that horizontal movement to keep the waveforms intact and semi-accurate ("semi" because no other competently designed component introduces distortion the way a loudspeaker does, and by a wide margin!). As others have pointed out, the physically sensible thing to do would be to add extensive weight to the top of the cabinet-if there were an easy and non-damaging way to do so. I don’t doubt that some (SOME) loudspeakers benefit from Gaia footers in some rooms. That would be due to the deficits inherent in the loudspeaker and other fortuitous conditions. I may buy a set just to say I tried them. Maybe mitchagain will buy them from me if I am not impressed? After all, there are none to be had on the secondary market so they must be good.
I spent years working on lower cost methods, passive devices with floor stander and stand mount speakers. IMO insipid in comparison with building systems. Elevating systems makes the other activities a poor return for my time.
Jim's book is ok, but underrates importance of quality of gear. Setup can't fix mediocre gear. You can't reach upper level sound by tuning and tweaking average gear. Anyone disagree? I'm not too bothered by that. :)
Suppose a speaker comes in. Do I spend time on spikes vs. Stand or build another system. Maybe you spend time on stand, but i build another system. I am a system Builder, not a tweaker. Disagree? Great, go at it your way.
Revolution going on in digital, and a new DAC under assessment, and I'm going to spend time on a stand? I'll let someone else do that.
Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion. Blessings to all and happy listening.
hg, yours are a perfect example of a floor stander that could accept Townshend Audio seismic pods, however with the bolt on top like the seismic corners have, then you can bolt them directly under your outriggers.
Zero Stiffness is the goal.
There's a reason springs are used under cars, buses and trucks and not Gaia. However the springs are so pliable that for example outriggers are generally required. The Gaia are not as compliant. It is the effect of compliance that will allow the greatest of isolation to take place.
Revolution going on in digital, and a new DAC under assessment, and I'm going to spend time on a stand? I'll let someone else do that.
Can anybody understand Doug's entire posts? I can't. I am reminded of Geoff but Geoff's weird statements are on purpose. Take this one. Is he saying that there is currently a revolution going on with digital? What revolution is that? I had not heard. Maybe like a revolution in Bolivia? Has someone magically broken the code as to how to eliminate all problems associated with digital filtering, digital algorithms, interpolation associated errors, power supply spuriae, clocking drift, and all the other things that make digital less than perfect sound forever? If so, I guess I am the last to know and Doug is all over it. And since when is "stand" and "footer" interchangeable? He keeps talking about stands and for the life of me I don't know why a floorstander would be on a "stand". Can someone take out their secret decoder ring and explain to my simple mind what the hell he is trying to say? Thanks in advance.
I dont know why simple thing like resonant mechanical embedding of an audio system is not simply experienced and understood by some....it is simple college physics.... Even a litterary mind like me knows....
I will not add the necessary controls of the electrical grid embedding to this one...This one is completely underestimated by most...
The acoustical embedding treatment is way more partially understood tough in the passive way to remedy the room, but forgot the active ways that are almost unsuspected by almost all people....
These 3 embeddings treatment and controls exceed in S.Q. change any normal upgrade not of one component, but in "some" cases the upgrade of all components, so powerful they are....
Think about any manufacturer in the obligation to reveal these inconvenient truths (for the sale pitch) to you before you bought his 10,000 dollars amplifier or dac? Will you be pleased to learn that day that his perfect engineering gear is not enough by themself to create Hi-Fi experience?
Asking the question is answering it.... :)
I succeed to afford Hi-Fi experience at peanuts costs thanks to simple listening experiments with homemade common sense and only very low cost materials....
Someone must say that to help the people who throw their money out of the window before knowing it or thinking about it, because they dont know no other way, and because they like me dream of Hi-Fi experience...
Perhaps i dont know the last dac technological marvel, my dac was paid peanuts by a bid on Ebay, but for sure i know now a few things about the way to embed an audio system at low cost and trust me the best dac in the world cannot replace that 3 embeddings controls by himself....
Dac dont eliminate vibrations, dont decrease the noise floor of the house and dont adress the acoustic field....Amplifier or speakers no more....
My system look like trash (because of all my modifications) but sound like many many thousand dollars systems and better than most...
The word "upgrading" is a market key word, a conditioned false ingrained urgency most of the times.... Think about what you already owns and the way to improve it.... After that, few years passing, you will know how to buy a real upgrade....
Is your gear, never mind his price, giving to you his real hi-Fi max. potential S.Q. ? That is the only important question, and most of the times the answer is no....
This is the basic audiophile problem and this is not related to any so called "upgrade".....
Jim’s book is ok, but underrates importance of quality of gear. Setup can’t fix mediocre gear. You can’t reach upper level sound by tuning and tweaking average gear. Anyone disagree? I’m not too bothered by that. :)
Wow, this just gave me a Eureka! moment. I am going to contact Jim, his editor, and his publisher and suggest a new "Chapter One". It will be the shortest chapter in the book and will read along the following lines; "Before you read the rest of this book full of tedious tips that won’t really do you much good, take my advice and take out a second or third mortgage, sell your kidney(s), cash out your child’s college fund, and just buy a better system for crying out loud!!! Why are you being such a tightwad and why do you want to be like Sisyphus rolling the same rock uphill over and over when you ought to be just up-spending for an adequate system unlike the pieces of crap you have at present. Trust me, whatever you have, it is crap. I know. All the rest of my suggestions regarding speaker placement, listening position, room treatment and the rest are a needless waste of time if you just spend enough money on the type of gear that Doug Shroeder and I prefer. Thank you. This is a public service announcement. No need to read further unless you insist on being the tightwad I suspect you are and don’t heed my above well-reasoned advice. //s// Jim Smith"
You can’t reach upper level sound by tuning and tweaking average gear
What in the world means "average" gear?
You can turn any relatively good low cost system in the 7 th marvel of the world by knowing how to embed it....If this average cost gear is relatively good for sure....
This is my experience...
What relatively good means?
Amplifier design is mature for the last 50 years....
I own a Sansui Au-7700.... An another Sansui of the alpha series.... They are certainly "averagely" good....They are among the best design Sansui ever created...
My dac cost few hundred new and is certainly good if we read all reviews of customers.... Average then but very good....(Starting Point System dac NOS)...The secret is the use of a good electronic known chip TDA 1543 philips but mainly his minimalistic design with low noise (internal battery powered)...
My speakers are average, paid 50 bucks used, but they are the best of British Mission speakers ever designed....Mission Cyrus 781....Average but certainly very good...( The bass is so good i never use the Kreisel sub i bought)
Controlling and tweaking the 3 embeddings dimensions where this audio system is immerged transform it like" night and day"....
YES, I reach upper level sound with average good gear....At worst slightly under it..... But a night and day transformation is more than an upgrade of dac or amplifier, or speakers in the same price rung of the scale except by paying for another totally different level of gear....
My gear total is under 500 dollars 2 pieces vintage and bought used....To crush it really will cost me 16,000 dollars with a really improved electronical design and better speakers...i know already what to buy to replace it...But 500 bucks versus 16,000 is staggering difference....
Thanks to the controls of their 3 embeddings, i am not in the frustrated urge for upgrade..... :)
I already own holographic, natural timbre, details and clear imaging audio system in nearfield position or in regular distance.... What more can i ask for ?
I dont listen no more to my 6 headphones, because they are not on par with my speakers now...." years ago with the same gear it was the opposite....Night and day ....
The truth and explanation is simple, most reviewers in all magazine, pay more attention to electronical new design than to the precise ways to embed an audio system....
Guess what is more important? The last new variation of classical known electronic design or the 3 embeddings?
The right answer will give to you Hi-Fi for peanuts....The wrong answer will push you to upgrade without end at high cost to finance private electronical design reasearch....
«Truth is simple, myths are complex....»-Groucho Marx
« Science is complexity made simple or is it technology brother? »- Harpo Marx
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