Btw, I'm refering on the prices subject to the vintage tonearms.
R. |
Dear Luna: Independent that makes sense to match Raven TT ( I assume you own Raven TT and even if you did not. ) ) with Raven tonearm because Raven designers took in count this match " necessity " a tonearm main target is to give the right answers on what any cartridge could ask for.
Cartridge designs are not perfect and needs carefully set up parameters, between these parameters is the azymuth critical one that with the Raven you can change it as the cartridge needs but you can't do this in the Grandezza.
Now, if you don't care to much on what the cartridge set-up needs then you can choose any of two but if you care that your cartridge on this critical parameter set-up be on target then the 10.5 is IMHO the " road " to go.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Here stated that no-azymuth in the DaVinci:
http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/dvapdf/products/phono/brochure/Grand%20Reference%20tone%20arm%20Grandezza.pdf |
Dear D:Please stop to say " stupid " things about. Btw, SME is not a " perfect " tonearm in the same way that there are no perfect cartridges and of course no perfect LPs and even no perfect cartridge set up by any one.
In the other side a TT designer that want to design a tonearm for at least take in count an arm board that match the tonearm build material resonances to avoid adding more. This designer knew perfectly the tonearm behavior about so he can help in better way with his tonearm design that with a different tonearms where he almost know nothing. Till today there is no perfect solution to " one for all ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Luna: If I remember time ago you have experienced the help of azymuth setting/changes, so you already know its importance level to use it when is need it.
Your call.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Rockitman: +++++ " Most owners ask us about adjustment. To all we say: add the cartridge and listen the music, then immediately you understand, why we omit div. adjustment tools.
This tone arm is built to bring all the musicality of your LPs! " ++++
of course, Da Vinci distortions named: " musicality!!!!
No sense at all.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dertonarm: No, it is not because you choosed de Davinci. In the past I posted that the azymuth and anti-skate tonearm control are two tonearm characteristics that every tonearm has to have and that the Grandezza does not has by design.
So, it is not for you.
In the other side, how can you be sure that the cartridge stylus is dead on 90° and not 89.9°-90.1° by sight? ( I " admire " In_shore because he can!!! ): you need to mount it an during playback set-up decide about and if you think that the stylus is off how can you assure to the seller that's off for he can change it with out any charge ( shipping included. )?. Some times different VTA/SRA positions needs different azymuth position too, for many reasons.
I " admire " your " chameleon " attitude about when you accept off-center LPs, non-flat LPs, high output impedance amps, non-perfect TT and everything in audio items that are not perfect. Why do you accept everything else but that no-sense perfect stylus azymuth? and what about the anti-skate device: now you think that the AS is " obsolete " and the cartridge does not need it during playback? so is there nothing to compensate about those playback forces?
IMHO we are living in a non-perfect audio world where we need some " tools " that help with those non-perfect audio items: well antiskate and azymuth tonearm controlers are part of those " tools ".
Halcro said that he has no problem with a cartridge in the Grandezza but with the same cartridge in the Continnum he has azymuth problem, this make no sense to me either because a tonearm azymuth control is used only when it need it and when not the tonearm is dead on.
Well, to dream in a perfect audio world is only a dream and maybe at its best a big hope. Returning to our real non-perfect audio world IMHO we need all those " tools ", that's why exist third party devices as tonearm/cartridge protractors and several ones.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Glai: I think your post gives very good " light " for Luna.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Kdl: Thank's for that link that confirm again all what is behind this German seller.
How missed I that thread?, two first pages are " great " and the Halcro post remembered/remind that heavy/ colossal trashing that M. Kelly infringe Dertonarm in a tonearm subject where Dertonarm think is " God " was memorable for say the least. Like here trying to defend the undefendable only because " his ignorance level say so ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
German seller means:Dertonarm. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " Cartridge manufacturer do - and since quite some time - feature special set-ups where ultra accurate placement of the stylus is long an easy and swift procedure.
" +++++
as always only " bla, bla, bla, " where you are very good but with out any real facts that prove with certain that your statements are true. In almost no one of your statements against the Raven and in favor of the Grandezza you give any certain facts that gives foundation true foundation on what you stated.
This is your " history " always. If we take the link on the Raven tonearm that posted Kdl we can read a post from Ttttt where he made a specific question:
++++Dertonarm,
Just to get back to the market situation:
What are the technical issues in tonearm design? ++++
and as always you made a " history " ( a long one because you are a good " chuildren teller " tales. ) with no specifc answer and this is what Ttttt posted about:
++++ Dertonarm,
Thanks for the explanations of the Graham an Wheaton. I already knew the details. That is not my point and a different story.
I am asking you, because you are claiming to have the superior knowledge in this case. " ++++++
In the other side and now that you already ( as always too. ) put some " clouds " on the main Raven/Grandezza subject in this thread you don't answer the other limitation on the Grandezza that you dimished: anti-skate, which is your " history " here on why is not need it.
All people here are waiting for your answer and I hope no more dark clouds in your posts but facts proved facts that on the azymuth subject you did not because IMHO you have nothing on hand other than your " tales ".
This is not the first time, as we can read on that link and in other Raven treads, you are in conflict in a " personal " manner with Raven in the same way you showed the same personal conflict with Schroeder tonearm and Frank it self, so how much of what you said about is really true ( even with out facts ) and not only your internal/self/mind conflict with Raven as happened with Scroeder? IMHO in this regard you are full non-trusty with non-trusty opinions.
Of course that you are wise enough to leave out that " conflict " and give a non-biased opinion that like other people opinions always is welcomed.
regards and enjoyy the music,
R. |
D: All that in good shape. IMHO we don't need clouds to create confussion we need " clean " facts that help everyone to understand where we are seated that is the real world and not where we desire to be seated that's today is only a good hope or dream.
R. |
Dear Dover: Are you serious? how is that a 20+ years " professional " high end audio distributor today " discover " " coil output/electrical behavior and stylus alignment vs azymuth ? what was or what kind of support and advise gave all those years to your customers? no one asked?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lbelchev: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1319419660&openflup&40&4#40
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Gentlemans: Now that all we know that azymuth is no need it at all and that the Grandezza is now a " classic " due that is a defunct item I want to share with you my additional thoughts about:
the azymuth subject IMHO can't be take it as if the stylus is dead on: 90° or not but if we need this tonearm tool or not ( I posted that are several reasons about. ).
I think there are good reasons to ask for it in any tonearm, I will name some of them and you can think on other ones. One of these reasons is that the cartridge stylus ( even in a perfect set-up. ) has no the same wear on both sides of the tip due that what is recorded in each side groove is different and the stylus tip " suffer " different wear/degradation about over time so over time we will need to adjust azymuth to be down " there " on traget ( this kind of stylus-tip wear came with differences on bot sides when we don't take enough care cleaning perfefctly the stylus tip at each LP side we listening. Stylus dust makes a lot of harm, you can't imagine. ).
Other reason, during the proccess to stamp 5k or 10K LPs not all the 5K or 10K LP stamped with the same " stamp 2 are " cutted " the same and I mean " side by side ", in several of those LPs are differences where we need to adjust cartridge azymuth.
Other reason could be that the cutter-head amplifiers have tiny gain differences that we can fix with that tonearm tool.
Now, any one of you lately measured your amplifier or phono stage or line stage or phonolinestagepreamp or even speakers gain/output on both channels? if not please do it and you will find out differences between both channels ( different levels on it. ). Yes you can fix it through a preamp balance control or if your preamp has two independent continuos volume controls ( stepped ones does not works here. ): what if you can't do it through your preamp? well azymuth control can help.
Now, all that happen with a perfect cartridge/tonearm set up but this perfect set-up just does not exist. We are imperfect and audio belongs to imperfections at each single step in the whole audio chain so we need as many " controls " we can achieve to fix or at least try to lower all those audio imperfections.
So IMHO we have to take that azymuth subject in the whole audio system context.
Now, the cartridge build is made it by hand and we are imperfect and as we are imperfect as imperfections ( tiny tiny ones. ) are in the cartridges. That some cartridge manufacturers have 100% quality control does not means that all manufacturers are the same and does not means that that few top manufacturers have as a target not 0.00001% of tolerances but CERO tolerances: this even does not exist because the tools to do it does not exist yet. When these cartridge build tools exist and the cartridge were builded by mechanic robots then we could have a perfect cartridge not before. This is IMHO true on cartridges and in other audio items.
Need we azymuth/anti skate tonearm controls because the " market is asking for " ? NO we need it because are a useful tools and we need it to fix ( lowering. ) " imperfections ".
Can I be wrong?, could be but as any one of you this is my take in the whole subject.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dover: +++++ " Another problem I have seen many many times is caused by armboards that are not perfectly level and referenced to the platter " +++++
agree, several times.
Other reasons for the needs on azymuth control/tool: is there cero tolerance in the " flat " cartridge top plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm headshell plate? or cero tolerance in the tonearm it self alignment: it is dead straigth? and we can go on and on on the subject.
Dertonarm said that in 12 years he did not found out any cartridge with trouble about, he is really lucky!. If we assume that he tested 1 cartridge by day then he tested around 4K cartridges ( or maybe only 600. ) when in those 12 years the cartridge universe was several hundred thousands of cartridges and counting.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: As other people in this thread already showed there are several contradictions on almost any post by dertonarm and that's why I posted that he is a non trusty chameleon opinion ( at least on these subjects/regards. ). Here are other contradictions on what he stated in this thread:
he applaud the SME V ( I own this tonearm and this is not the point but what he said in two post on the same subject. ):
+++++++ They did not give this very precise figure out of the blue........
SME took for granted all industry standards of its day (early 1980ies) and said:
"well, if all cartridge designers do obey to and follow the standards given and if all LPs are cut following the new IEC standard, then evrything will be perfect with our new tonearm - it will be the "best tonearm in the world"............"
But the world is an imperfect one and many people do want to go their own ways.
The new SME surely was the LEAST UNIVERSAL tonearm ever designed .......
The SME V was a child of its day and was regarded when introduced as the first tonearm which took all (some of them fairly new...) industry standards for record-cutting and cartridge dimensions serious.
Too serious. ++++++++
now on the Davinci/azymuth where he favored against this thread where we " don't need it anymore but because marketing it came incorporated in its tonearm ". Here start about:
+++++ Dear Halcro, you can not compensate azimuth offset with balance control. Azimuth offset means - always! - a misalignment of the stylus towards BOTH groove walls. This has to be fixed at the source. You can mask the sonic result to some degree (in fact only the channel imbalance.. ) with the balance control, but the problem remains and it will shorten both - the life-time of your stylus AND records.
Aside from the sonic presentation (soundstage width and depth and high frequency reproduction) which does suffer too.
To fix this issue, do get AND use very thin plastic washers (sometimes part of cartridge screws by-pack assembly) to eliminate the problem where it occurs. +++++
and he followed:
+++++ Correct azimuth is a must and is determined by the position of the stylus in the groove and towards both walls. Thus a headshell level (spirit bubble or not....) has little to no use as Dougdeacon and Essentialaudio already mentioned correctly.
The problem has to be fixed at the source - you can not "correct" a misalignment of azimuth anywhere else in the chain - only at the stylus.
If the stylus is not 100% vertical in relation to the upper plane of the mounting cartridge body, you need a headshell which can be rotated in its axis - at least to some degree.
Its an imperfect world - thus we need alignments.... " +++++
and he followed:
+++++ " Sorry folks - azimuth-adjustment in real world conditions has to be (and can only be ..) done by the one single instrument most audiophiles seems do trust the very least.
The ear........+++++
but now he is in love with SME and with the today " perfect audio world where we don't need alignments"!!!!!! ( his words not mine. )
There are several other examples on these and other subjects with the same contradictory opinions in the same subject where Dertonarm try to defend or try to impose his opinion at any " cost ", including his own lose credibility. Of course that he did/do that always thinking that all of us are absolutely 100% " ignorants " but him that has the " light ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: That azymuth changes through the tonearm collar ( SME removable headshell type. ) is an old trick for that kind of tonearms that were not designed for azymuth changes. It is a pain to use it because was not designed for that purpose.
In those all times clever/wise/knowledge Japanese tonearm designers ( there were not many, few very few. ) took in count the azymuth subject through their designs and from the ones I remember ( I own those tonearms. ) only Lustre GST-801 and Audio Technica ones ( they builded different models. . ) came with this azymuth control by design through the original Lustre and AT headshells, just like the Raven today.
No, Dynavector, SAEC, Micro Seiki, FR, Technics, Audiocraft or Denon thinked about.
Lewm, try to find out a Lustre one: this japanese design was IMHO one not only of the best tonearms out there but a design several several years a head any other tonearm design: even the ones today and you don't need to pay " stupid " high prices for it: this IMHO and talking on tonearms is a real/true century bargain ever.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Well, at least SME and DaVinci honored what they think on azymuth and designed according that honest " attitude " and did not corrupted their " feelings " in favor of $$$ or against them " feelings ", good!
R. |
Dear Lbelchev: You can do this in any removable headshell tonearm design through the tonearm collar at the front or through the headshells that came with azymuth " control " like in the Raven one where you even can have the cartridge up side down.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dgad: +++++ " Wonder why you aren't much on the German forums " +++++
there are very good reasons for that. The Dertonarm audio history is a deep and dirty black one. I received several emails from his german audio " friends " where they gave me ( I never asked for. ) point by point an important part of his audio history.
I can't post those german emails for respect to the Dertonarm person/human been figure but suffice is to say that he was expel/ejected by the back-door from all those forums as a fact Agon is his last chance and his last refuge till Agon eject him too.
His audio history is really bad more that you or any one could imagine: full of harmful facts/actions to the good and honest people out there.
What he already showed in Agon forums is only the point/tip of the iceberg ( a big one I have to say. ).
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Thuchan: You can't be serious. Do you want to read those emails? don'y you care about the deep harm that could make to you and your " partner "? why don't you ask him before?
Do you want I being specific?, ask him. IMHO the best you can do is stay away from this subject because you can be splash with.
++++ " like you are deeply hurt by his argumentation. " ++++
which one? on which subject? which kind of argumentation other than his " children's tales " for ignorants?.
Please don't let me laugh again and again but thank's for this: you make my day!
God made it and the " fortune " put together!!!, you are lucky now that belongs to that german group that you rejected in the past. I hope they ( he ) is not only " using you " for now.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: IMHO the GST-801 with almost any cartridge outperform any SAEC tonearm. Don't take my word for sure, give it a try and if you don't like it I can buy it from you ( I own two-three of them. ) in 500.00!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: For those FR tonearm advocates this product is a must to own. Btw, it works with all the new Ikeda tonearm designs too ( I own it. ):
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1325038195&/Fidelity-Research-B60-elevation-base
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: Any of you mated already with your beloved tonearms this new Ortofon LOMC cartridge?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The new Ortofon flagship MC Anna
MC Anna represents a combination of following elements very characteristic for Ortofon:
The housing and the body of the cartridge are made in Titanium with SLM technique. The Selective Laser Melting technique was pioneered by Ortofon for manufacturing of the MC A90, SPU 90th Anniversary and Xpression cartridges
At the High-End show May 2011 in Munich Ortofon was very pleased to showcase the brand newest High End flagship MC Anna.
Ortofon has a long tradition paying tribute to the persons who had been a feature of the High-End culture, Ortofon culture and Music culture and history.
In honour of these remarkable persons Ortofon launched a number of products through the last years, incl. MC Windfeld, MC Rohmann, Kontrapunkt BACH series etc.
This year we are very proud and honoured to introduce our new High End cartridge MC Anna, dedicated to the virtuoso opera singer Anna Netrebko. By this we will emphasizes our commitment and devotion to the music, pure musicality and the power it possesses.
The new improved magnet system which Ortofon has patent pending. High performance iron-cobalt alloy is applied for some parts of the magnet system
The new revolutionary armature damping system that provides complete elimination of unwanted resonance
Ortofon Replicant 100 diamond, thin and light, with an extraordinarily large contact surface, tracing accuracy unparalleled by any other needle in existence. Special polished Nude Ortofon Replicant 100 on Boron cantilever provides more responsive and transparent sound reproduction.
Technical data_preliminary:
Output voltage at 1 kHz, 5cm/sec.: 200 µV
Channel balance at 1 kHz: 0,5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz: 25 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz: 22 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz - 20 kHz + / - 1,5 dB
Tracking ability at 315 Hz at recommended tracking force: 80 µm
Compliance, dynamic, lateral: 9 µm/mN
Stylus type: Special polished Nude Ortofon Replicant 100 on Boron Cantilever
Stylus tip radius: r/R 5/100 µm
Tracking force, recommended: 2,3 g (23 mN)
Tracking angle: 23°
Internal impedance, DC resistance: 6 Ohm
Recommended load impedance: > 10 Ohm
Cartridge body material: SLM Titanium
Cartridge colour: Silver/Black
Cartidge weight: 16 g
Looks great in its " rounded " body shape.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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