Since an order of magnitude is 10, I don't think there were any turntables in commercial existence for more than maybe one order of magnitude greater cost than the original ARXA (which would have been $670); was there a $6700 tt back then? Anyway, this thread is BORRRRRINGGGGG!!! Should be deleted for snooze factor, not to mention pusillanimity (if that is a word for "small-mindedness").
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@mijostyn You might selectively recall the concept of functional decomposition as a systems engineering process… IF you subject the mightly SOTA Saphire ( yes i owned a few, sold many ), you will ( perhaps ) understand the excess of parts having no significant functionality….
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Sorry I can't resist. If it looks hideous like so many high-end audio products, does it imply (hint/suggest/allude) that it sounds better? I am half-joking, I know aesthetics is not the goal of many engineers, they just chase perfection in sound, do you associate from weird looks to quality sound? |
@lewm : the AR TT was introduced in 1964 at a price of $78. I bought a nicely modded version from Vinyl Nirvana for $750. Taking into account the depreciation of the US dollar that is a reasonable price. |
@tomic601 Sapphire is spelled with two "P"s. The Sapphire was a brilliant. David Fletcher took Edgar Villchur's design and flipped it upside down creating the most stable turntable to date. That design has since been borrowed by SME, Avid, Basis and others. It was never bettered until recently when MinusK's negative stiffness design was adapted by Mark Dohmann for his Helix turntables. Sota in the meanwhile has not stood still. It brought vacuum clamping to consumer turntables, developed a CAD chassis of 1" thick aluminum, had what many consider to be the finest motor and motor controller adapted for their turntables, developed the perfect mat for a turntable and designed a new platter with a neodymium magnet thrust bearing. I like the Cosmos most because it violates Mark Levison's rules of Audio. It is not cool looking and it does not cost a fortune. I can live with that. The Sapphire can have all of these features except the aluminum chassis. Why thank you @mahgister. For those who have not read the "Achtung!" Poster you might get a kick out of it. I have no idea who authored it, but I first saw it at an audio store in Akron, Ohio called Golden Gramophone now defunct. |
@grislybutter , I know of plain looking units, but most units get the Goochi treatment first utilized by one of audios capital a--h-les Dan D'Agostino. Remember the gold screws! Dan is still pushing the limits. I would not use his electronics if they were the last on earth. I would rather sing to myself. |
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@mijostyn Sometimes you have to make it shiny to justify the price, I guess. |
@grislybutter You have to make it shiny to sell it. Cars are the same way. The Italians know that better than anyone. Everything is a matter of style. Appearances. Ferrari has a history of making some really awful cars, but they have standing because of style like the Testarossa, one of the most functionally awful cars I have ever driven. The Berlinetta Boxer is another beautiful, awful car. The new ones are much better due to CAD. I could run circles around those cars with 911s of the same period. |
@mijostyn I never had that problem :) If I could, I would get a 348 or 355 (for a week). I love Italian cars, not the maintenance costs but the way look and drive. |
Gabor…. when you visit, we can walk around in the Condo parking garage it’s a veritable car show for just 15 units…. From 2 Ferari ( see what i did there @mijostyn ? ) Nobody confuses the several prancing horse with the multitude of “ souless German appliances “…. or… the Willys… ( guilty as charged on 3 counts )… @noromance has it right… i was extremely disappointed in the recent Tracking Angle write up of some abysmal TT w built in speakers… |
sounds cool, thanks @tomic601 ! Looking forward to it! The La Jolla Concours d’Elegance is coming up, which is also a great mix of cars... |
@helomech I know several sets of fossil ears that are way more sensitive than juvenile examples. It may be the monitoring device that counts. @grislybutter I drove a 355. Wonderful driver. You have to change the timing belts every 10,000 miles. That is an engine out service costing $15,000 at last count. @tomic601 Are you suggesting that older 911's are "soulless"? New ones are definitely headed in that direction but nobody I know would characterize and old 911 that way. They reek of soul. They are just a few steps away from a VW Bug which is the most soulful car ever made. |
@tony1954 There are many sources and types of distortion. Some forms of distortion are irritating to some people. For example, I can't stand the 'sizzle' that comes from some digital and most electrolytic caps in the signal path. Some other people don't seem to care. THD is only one form of distortion. Other forms of distortion don't have much impact. For example, I don't mind a bit of 'wow' in my music, but it drives other people nuts. YMMV. And that's the point. |
i dont understand some people logic.... They dream about 300,000 bucks turntable and amp with o.000000000000000 % distortion...😁 But they never spoke about the more important multiple ways acoustics parameters aspects of the system/room/ears are the FIRST and LAST factor that matter the most ... Gear branded names and price tags matter because they think the "plane" must be idolized as a god making sound as some tribes who paid the price for it to come back in their "room" .... 😊 |
@mahgister knowledge on how something works is not the same as using/enjoying it. Max Verstappen is not an expert in engineering but he is a multiple time Formula 1 Champion. What's wrong with someone 'outsourcing' the expertise in design and implementing a wonderful audio system? It's awesome you enjoy your system. Do you think they enjoy it any less because they don't understand the technical details that create the music they enjoy? |
It is not so simple division as that :
A trivial common place fact distinction is useless here . Sorry... 😁
it takes me 6 months at full time to understand how work the AKG K340 headphone hybrid complex design and modify it to reach ectasy ...understanding matter sorry ... Embeddings mechanical,electrical and acoustical controls devices are not gadgets we could buy only and in all case, we can and must make our own sometimes and they ask for basic understanding... ( i created my own shielding plate ) I modified my small speakers porthole because i understand Helmholtz resonators perhaps better than the Chinese designer who anyway had no choice because of cost selling them with no bundle of various tubes size, some 3 feet length behind the small speakers to improve them immensely as i did (50 hertz clear and no distortion with a 4 inches woofer ) ... 😊 I modified the not so well designed waveguide too ...
Here you misread my posts i admired any designer of High end as such... I did not admired people who use price tags for definition of audiophile experience ...
To enjoy any system we can read the price tag and call it job done and sleep with the music... my definition of enjoying imply basic acoustic knowledge and consciousness ... Why ? Because without it we cannot be conscious of the objective reason why we enjoy the S.Q. save for the price tag and others opinion about the gear... I need to understand what is "timbre" , transients, listener envelopment, sound source width, crosstalk negative impact, reverberation time, absorption and reflective ratios and diffusion effects , location of tuned resonators, and ionization and schumann generators impact etc etc etc ... I need to understand concretely with my ears the varying parameters i could control to increase my joy to reach full consciouness about the optimal experience with any design i can buy ... Buying upgrades is not my definition of audiophile hobby... Creativity+basic concrete knowledge of acoustics is ... Now i listen music a new hobby of mine satisfied with no frustration at all in spite of the limitations of my system which work optimally at his highest level this was make possible by my past hobby in acoustics...I did not need to buy 100,000 bucks of gear to reach minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold ... Trust me the maximal threshold cost a lot more ... 😊
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@mahgister I appreciate your response. To each their own, I can enjoy music or a car without knowing all the details of how they work. I may not have the mental capacity or patience to understand the how. I hear differences in systems and understand it’s my individual preference. I can enjoy a record without knowing all the details of how the cartridge, tonearm and phono stage work. I am an avid car enthusiast and driver, I can’t do a break job. I can detail them and exploit their mechanical grip.
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I can enjoy Bach in a bad car radio... But i need to hear the church acoustic out of my head with my headphone or the speakers filling the room out of my head if i use headphone... I used acoustics to modify them and optimize them ... No need to any knowledge to enjoy music... But i wanted to have audiophile experience without breaking my low budget... i succeeded because i am retired and do it full time few years ... Anybody can if he invest time studying and experimenting with the right chosen gear for sure ... i dont know any low cost headphone i could enjoy save the one i optimized... We must pick the right gear to begin with, not necessarily the costlier one; the gear we can optimize and modify... i am not interested in car mechanics at all but i was fascinated by acoustics not mere room acoustic all acoustics knowledge for sure ... ( my wife drive the car by the way 😊 )
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I have a Regal RP 6 fitted with a stock Denon DL103 I have a Rega P10 fitted with an Aphelion 2. Playing both through an Aesthetic Rhea phon stage. I enjoy the TT with the Denon DL103. Not judging the sound but it just is more enjoyable to listen to. The P 10 rig is 6 times the price of the RP 6. Just saying
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@tomic601 I didn't know what the 993 was and looked it up. Best looking generation. Then it went downhill and the design became hideous for a decade. It now looks decent again. But I never thought Porsche was about good looks as much as looking clean and tight. |
These discussions always amuse me. Funny how some people are turned off by a more expensive piece of equipment than they can afford or want to spend and yet they have spend what others think as retarded sums on things others would spend money on. Most of it is based on personal choices how you spend your money. If a person spends more than the quoted 69 dollars for a turntable so what? Another might buy a package of cigarettes for 20 dollars or a 12 pack of beer for 35 dollars other people might find that spending silly. (Canadian prices on the smokes and beer). What purpose does money spent on a holiday have? So someone wants to sit around in the sun a do nothing so others can serve them and that makes them feel wealthy instead of working to be that way? The conclusion that wealthy people are lazy and stupid is the opinion of those that truly are those things. Many people post on here to brag and feel good about themselves and if there system was truly as good as they caim why don't the listen to it more offen instead on being keyboard warriors? Many people get offended by the components others have because they have chosen audio as there hobby and yet that is not there hobby there hobby is a rooster swinging competition! They take great offense when someone else has a longer rooster. |
Just do what many people do and research gear in your particular budget, get a TT with good performance/reviews if audition is not practical, buy the best cartridge you can. Also research proper set up if not familiar with that. Use it till you know it well, then decide to keep or trade up. If a phono amp needs to be part of your system, used is the way to go imo. |
In 2006, I had already owned a highly modified SME IV ($1100 in 1989) and wanted to upgrade from my VPI 19-4 (bought in 1982/all upgrades after). So, I purchased a VPI TNT (upgraded platter). It REQUIRED a Townshend Sesimic SInk due to terrible vibration problems. I've gone through about a dozen cartridges in 35 years. Three friends and I own Dynavectors on very different TTs. I went with a $1100 20X2L in a high end system (now VS VR9 SE Mk2, Poseidon Pre/DAC, etc). It isn't just the TT and arm, it's matching it with the cartridge, then the phono stage (MM or MC). I have fantastic analog sound despite it not being SOTA. With 28,500 LPs (7,000 78s now played on the 19-4), I need a cartridge that plays most if not all of my LPs quietly (so many purchased used) and beautifully. Sure, my SOTA TT would be a full blown Kronos or Ars Machincae (or Conti last Basis). I don't have to have them to greatly enjoy records. Start at high quality, used TTs that have flooded the market. I like the SME arm because it is less sensitive to VTA after setup, durable and usable in a wide range of cartridges. The simple VPI like Scouts are a great table with their own arm. For $3K, this including my cartridge, high output is wonderful sounding.
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Wow. What a cluster of a thread. Firstly, no one called anyone here "poor and ignorant". The poster merely drew a parallel between two imaginary people to make the point that perspective alters personal truth. And the number of people who dismiss things they can't afford is astounding. And no, a $5000 TT does not get into the 95th percentile of a $300,000 TT, if both are designed and built properly. The "diminishing returns" theory is common, but false in my experience. How do you calculate the "10x better" of a properly set up $100,000 system compared to a $10,000 system? I have heard some very pricey stereo systems, properly set up, that sounded far and away "better" than what can be assembled for appreciably less. Were they 10x better? 5x? 50X? Lacking a way to quantify the difference leaves comparisons meaningless. What that difference is "worth" is even more subjective than the measure of improvement. If I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to drop $1m on a system. There would likely be a Ferrari on the shopping list, too. Would I then be a fool? And would I care about the opinions of a minority of random internet sages who extol the virtues of having less money? Nahhh, I wouldn't. Enjoy what you have and enjoy pride of ownership and the result of your efforts. Denigrating others for the same would seem to be the foolish part, but that's just me. |
the "diminishing returns" zone , because it is more a zone than a point is not a theory but a problem... The point is a zone oscillating between two factors: a subjective psychoacoustics factors of evaluation and an objective refinement design factor of evaluation ... it is clear if we understand the factors at play that this zone of evaluation exist .... Then a 300,000 dollars turntable is an interesting design experiment but in no way an interesting piece of gear to own.... the reason is not only the zone problem of evaluation between money invested and acoustic experience real or virtual returns, but the reason is that a multimillions system is not a MODEL for audiophile...Nor the solution in general "per se" to our S.Q. problems and experience... I dont bash high end gear saying this evident fact...😊 For almost every audiophiles the diminishing returns problem exist ... Not for Bill gates who may call it a theory unfounded for him....Bill gates does not need to learn basic acoustics with homemade devices as i did he call the best acoustician in the world . He does not even need to study medecine he buy the WHO problem solved. 😊 I dont live on the same planet ... A 300,000 turntable is a technological feat asking for an acoustic room of many million dollars and for an amplifier and speakers of stratosopheric price... It is an experiment in acoustic design not the model we can imitate ... And as i said acoustics rule audiophile experience not gear price tags.... This does not means that gear price tags had no real acoustic potential added value nor any improving quality meaning...For sure they are.... At the end , an audiophile who study basic acoustic in my opinion is less ignorant than one who bought 45 amplifiers but never experiment with acoustics ( it is not only room acoustic) ... Gear choices and price matter for synergy and improvement but it is for nothing if we dont know how to install and embed a system in his mechanical,electrical and acoustical basic working dimensions... The rules of acoustics dont change with the gear price tag... Is it not common sense ? 😁 |
Well, the only time that my wife ever experienced a physically attached moment to an audio system was when she heard the Von Schwiekert Ultra 11 speaker plus subs in a huge hotel conference room with a $1 million system playing my LPs and a CD. That turntable was the Kronos $50K setup (not the newest. multi-component one) with it’s own arm and a $15K cartridge. I’ve heard the Ultra 9, VR 100 or 110 and my best friends’ VR35 Export (bimonthly for years). I purchased the renovated 2018 VR9 SE Mk2 in January and now have about 50% of that Ultra 11 experience. I have a superior listening room though so there’s that. I am waiting for my Lampizator Poseidon to go with a possible Westminster Labs REI amp but don't intend to change my TT/analog front end soon. I may end up with 80-90% of that fantastic sounding system for 15% of the cost of the $1+ million system (well there is my room cost of $150K though). |
I was shocked by prices and weights - but now I'm accepting that probably many of these turntables are bought for beauty and pride. I'd like to retract my "audiophools" adjective. I'm sure, as long as the mechanical parts are working, these tables can reproduce music at a highly satisfying level. As I heat these days "my bad" :) However, having heard a shootout at Mike Lavigne's house (via youtube) to my ears the Wadax trounced the spinner. It's about time :) |
On the subject, I don't know how a 10K (20, 50, 100, etc.) turntable can be better than a 2K turntable. Needle, yes, I can see the needle making a big difference. But arm, platter, plinth, etc. just all do a very simple job. This doesn't mean that I think that people who spend 10s of thousands on a turntable are snobs or make bad decisions. All it means I don't know. Maybe some day I will... |
At least you admit that you "don't know". That's a good place to start, rather than to think that if it's cheaper, it must be as good or better. as some do. There's a great line from the movie "A Thousand Clowns", which came out in the early 60s and is one of my favorites. Martin Balsam plays financially successful older brother to Jason Robards who plays a sort of devil-may-care beatnik type who is financially careless at best. (There were Beatniks in the 50s and early 60s.) The two brothers are having an argument about life philosophies, and Martin Balsam says to Jason Robards, with irony, "I get it. If I'm so smart, why aren't I poor?" The take home lesson for audiophiles being sometimes there is a correlation between cost and quality, but not all the time. |
There is for sure a non linear correlation between price tags (which are not cost) and design quality.. Not linear or as you said "not all the time". But there is no correlation save a very loose one between acoustic perception of the system/room S.Q. and the price tags of the gear for many reasons linked to acoustics and psychoacoustics among others... The most costly piece of gear is the room and it is the forgotten piece when audiophile spoke about S.Q. in their non dedicated room (living room ) . Or in a room with only a few panels... 😊 |
