Greatest Rock Drummers

Well audiozen, Clapton and George Harrison were very close, so Eric may in fact have played on another White Album song. But he talked about how amazed he was that George invited him along to a session one day, and how "wrong" it felt to be playing on a Beatles record! It just so happened that they were recording ’WMGGW" that day, and aren’t we glad! Clapton never mentioned playing on any other of their songs, that I know of.

The guys he really wanted to play with were The Band. After hearing Music From Big Pink, he made a pilgrimage to Woodstock, waiting, he says, for them to ask him to join. After all, he disbanded Cream after hearing MFBP ;-). He says he finally realized they didn’t need him, and went looking for another good band to play with. He found one in Delaney & Bonnie’s road band, where he met the players who were to become his band in Derek & The Dominoes.

That is indeed Clapton on "WMGGW", but not on "Yer Blues". However, Clapton DID play guitar on the song when Lennon performed it in The Rolling Stones Rock And Roll Circus live show.

An interesting Beatles song, guitar-credit wise, is "The End". There is a long section in which McCartney, Harrison, and Lennon take turns playing the "lead" part. John’s playing is the crudest, of course ;-).

Neil Peart must be the John Bonham of his generation, as he is mentioned so many times in polls, particularly by non-musicians. No offense intended! Peart has his strengths, but he wasn't aware of his glaring weakness when he organized the recording of a tribute album to Buddy Rich after Buddy's death. Rich played mostly Big Band-style jazz, which is largely played in the "Swing" feel. Swing is pretty much like the "Shuffle" feel in blues.

Early Rock 'n' Roll, as played by Little Richard, for instance, often had a very pronounced Swing/Shuffle feel, but that pretty much died out in the 60's (in R & R; it lived on in Blues). Bands like Rush didn't incorporate any of the roots influences in their music, and apparently Neil Peart wasn't interested in learning how to play the Swing/Shuffle feel. That became obvious during the recording of the BR tribute album, when Peart's inability to play Buddy's music with the required Swing feel became quite obvious. It was very embarrassing to him amongst the drumming fraternity.

Yep tostadosunidos, Zak Starkey is doing a great job in The Who. I saw them with Keith Moon live twice, and he was a possessed madman. But Zak is actually a more powerful, muscular, player. He doesn't play with the humour (an overlooked quality in musicians) or individuality of Moon (who played unlike anyone else), but ya can't have it all. Keith gave the best answer to an interviewer I've ever heard; when asked if he could play in The Buddy Rich Big Band (the question intended to put him in his place), Keith replied "No, and Buddy Rich couldn't play in The Who".

aniwolfe, Vinnie is also Jeff Beck's drummer on the road. Insane chops, as good as anyone alive. Apparently that style drumming is what Jeff prefers, as he had Carmine Appice in his band for awhile. Porcaro was SUCH a good drummer; like Gadd, a Jazz-trained and proficient technician who played very musically. Too bad he wasted his talent playing schlock music in Toto ;-) .

Thanks gpgr4blu. Being a drummer, I would put it a little differently! A drummer SHOULD be, above all else, a musician---one who plays music. So there should not be a distinction between drummers and other musicians. Unfortunately, many drummers create that distinction by playing in an unmusical manner, to the chagrin of the other musicians. Playing drums is often more a display of athletic ability (purely physical) than musical sensibilities. Having chops (technical ability) is required to play drums well (with some musics requiring more technique than others), but when put above all other considerations can actually become counter-productive. Not only does the drum playing not enhance the song, the singer, or the band, it actually detracts from them, being worse than if there were no drums at all. Steve Gadd’s technique is FAR more advanced than was John Bonham’s, but he uses that technique in service to playing the best musical part---a means to an end, rather than an end unto itself.

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating. It was told to me by Evan Johns, sometimes bandmate of the incredible guitarist Danny Gatton (legendary amongst guitarists, including Vince Gill, who nicknamed him "The Humbler"). Danny had a new drummer, playing his first gig with him at a club. On the break after the first set, Danny said to the drummer: "You know all that fancy sh*t you’re playing?". The drummer responded "Yeah". Danny then said "Don’t". Gatton had (R.I.P.) incredible guitar chops, and you can’t blame the drummer for thinking he should play as "hot" as possible.

The thing a lot of drummers don’t understand is, playing drums in a purely technical fashion does not necessarily or automatically create the feel, style, and sound a guitarist (even one playing in a highly technical style), singer, or pianist wants from his or her band. The fact that a drum part is hard to play is in no way related to it’s musical value---there is NO correlation! I have gotten gigs over more technically-advanced players because of my musically-orientated style, and have had my recorded version of a song used on an album instead of the take by a more, shall we say, "extroverted" player (think Keith Moon).

Would The Beatles music (for instance) be "better" with a drummer like Bonham? Or would it, conversely, be not as good as it is with Ringo?

For those interested in discovering the unique, unusual, and even odd (and I mean that as a compliment) bass playing of the aforementioned Rick Danko of The Band, give a listen to "Chest Fever" and "We Can Talk" on the Music From Big Pink album, and "Stage Fright" from the album of the same title. I’ve never heard any other bassist play even remotely like Rick. His parts sound so cool they actually make me laugh out loud!

Another very creative and unique (as well as musical) bassist is Joey Spampinato, formerly of the great NRBQ. He’s a favorite of Keith Richards, who employed him for the band he assembled when he made his Chuck Berry movie. Also in the band was drummer Steve Jordan, a huge fan of Levon Helm. Keith also asked Spampinato to join The Stones when Bill Wyman left, and Joey turned him down! One of my all-time favorite bassists, along with Danko.

John Paul Jones isn’t even close to playing at their level, and is not renown for his abilities on that instrument in the bass player community. He is what is known as a utilitarian player, and nothing more. In his defense, it’s hard to play great bass in a band that doesn’t have great songs, or other great players ;-).

johnto---actually, I did mention Jim Gordon, in a post a couple of days ago (it reads "Jim’s Gordon and Keltner"---my way of saying Jim Gordon and Jim Keltner). I love his playing, and his cymbals were as good sounding as I’ve ever heard, as were Levon Helm’s. Bonham’s? Uh, not so much. I have one of Jim’s Camco drumsets, acquired in L.A. in the late 90’s. They were left in a storage facility when he was "sent away" (Jim started hearing voices, which one day told him to kill his mother. He did, with a butcher knife.), and I lucked onto them when the building was sold, along with it’s contents.

Jim was not only an unusually musical drummer, but also wrote and played the piano part in the middle of "Layla" (where the song breaks down, and the band stops playing). One of my half-dozen favorite drummers of all-time. I’m going to guess Steve Cham also considers Bonham a more inventive and musical drummer than Jim Gordon. Steve and I obviously have different ideas of what constitutes musicality! And while I can understand why and how one could find the more "obvious" playing of Bonham more inventive than that of Levon Helm (Helm’s creativity is too subtle and refined for some, a little over their heads ;-), the same can not be said of John Paul Jones’ bass playing in comparison with that of Rick Danko. The bass playing on The Band albums is astonishingly great! JPJ’s playing is the very definition of pedestrian. That is NOT a matter of opinion amongst musicians---ask any really good bassist about JPJ and Danko.

The "problem" with Rock (or Pop, or Country, etc.) drummers who overplay, is that they think what they are playing is as important as the song itself---the chord sequences, the melody, harmony, and counterpoint, the arrangement, etc. They think what they are playing IS the song! They have not yet learned the role, the function, of their instrument in the big picture. Let me make a couple of analogies, if over-simplified ones:

1- The script of a movie (a film, if you insist ;-) is analogous to a song, the dialogue to a movie as the chords and melody are to a song. Now, what if there were an actor who thought that the manner in which he delivered his lines, taken out of the context of the movie, were more important than the lines themselves? Have you heard one actor refer to another as generous? Good musicians view and judge each other similarly---whether another is acting (playing) in a way as to draw all the attention to themselves, or to act (play) as part of an ensemble. It takes maturity, wisdom, and selflessness to play as part of an ensemble. THAT is the manner in which Jim Gordon, Levon Helm, and Rick Danko play music.

2- In literature, all the ideas are conveyed in words, unlike a movie. There are the raw words themselves, but they are organized into sentences, paragraphs, and chapters. Each line of words is also organized, the meaning of the words clarified with the use of punctuation. It is my contention that the best Pop (which includes all sub-genres) drummers realize that the role of drums is NOT on the same level of importance as the song itself (chords, melody, etc.), that drums instead provide the definition, clarification, and organization that punctuation and other forms of grammar do in literature. It’s not that black-and-white, but you get the point. Watch Steve Gadd playing with Clapton---that’s exactly what he is doing.

There is much more to it that that---dynamics, color, phrasing, etc. But I’ll again repeat myself---if a drummer is playing parts with the main consideration being how his playing reflects on him rather than on how it effects the song itself---which exists whether or not he is playing at all---then his approach is not musical. It’s just that simple.

Ya beat me to it, lowrider57! About Ringo being a musical drummer, that is. There’s a saying in the Christian faith, that you can’t serve two masters. A drummer can approach a song and choose to play it in one of two ways: either in a way to make the song sound better than if he wasn’t playing (and/or make the singer and/or other musicians sound "better"), or in a way to make himself sound as good as possible. While both criteria can and have been satisfied in rare examples (by the best of the best---Levon Helm, Roger Hawkins, Jim’s Gordon and Keltner, Al Jackson Jr., Steve Gadd amongst that elite group), it is usually one or the other---one precluding the other.

I’m not here to denigrate the drumming of John Bonham; it is what it is. He was indeed very instrumental in creating the Led Zeppelin style of music, and remains hugely influential, much more so than drummers whose playing I personally prefer. Lowrider, you are very correct in saying that Bonham didn’t play "with" the bassist, as is the norm in a band with a true rhythm section. It’s hard to call two-thirds of a 3-piece band a rhythm "section"!

The over-playing in his style that I was speaking of can be demonstrated by playing any number of LZ songs, and, as you noted, involves his interaction with Page’s guitar parts. What Bonham does is play an overly-long (imo) run around his toms, duplicating, on his "untuned" (drums are tensioned, not tuned to notes, generally speaking) instrument (specifically his tom toms) what Page is already playing. Playing those notes all around his toms serves no musical purpose (there’s that term again), and creates a one-dimensional style of music, with no depth, no layers. True, Bonham doesn’t play that way all the time in every song, but it IS his basic approach. Recall the guitar, drum, and bass parts in "Good Times, Bad Times", for example; all three are accenting the same rhythm. SO one dimensional! If each would play "off" each other, rather than in unison, it would make for more interesting music, imo.

What the best drummers (and other musicians) do is play parts that compliment the playing of the other musicians, rather than doubling what is already being played. John Paul Jones often does the same thing as Bonham, playing the same notes on bass as is Page on guitar, but of course an octave lower. That is the basis of "Riff Rock" style music. It is, for those desiring depth in music, very boring.

Compare the drum and bass playing on the first Led Zeppelin album to that on the first Band album. A world of difference! The Band’s bassist Rick Danko creates almost "songs within songs"---using counterpoint, inversions, octaves, syncopation, and other techniques to enrich the music. Drummer Levon Helm does the same, leaving "holes" where the others are already playing a note, putting one in where no one else is. Listen to all the "passing of the musical baton" going on in "This Wheel’s On Fire" on Music From Big Pink. Insanely great! Every time the song comes around again to the "stop" in the middle of the chorus, the guitar, drums, and bass play their "pick-up" note in a different order from the last time. Depth, baby! Playing in this manner enriches the musicality of the song, is far more interesting, and just sounds cooler. It is also far harder to do, and requires musical taste (an understanding of what not to play), which, I’m sorry to say, John Bonham lacked. Just my opinion, of course.

jond’s nomination of Jim Keltner (of which I heartily approve and second) begs the question: what constitutes a "Rock" drummer? Before Keltner starting playing in The Playboys (Gary Lewis’ backing band) in the mid-60’s, he was, in his own words, a Jazz snob. He is Jazz guitarist Bill Frisell’s first call drummer (as well as Ry Cooder’s, and many other guitarists and songwriters), and does mostly studio work. Is he a "Rock" drummer? Does he even play what you consider Rock music?

The same can be asked about Steve Gadd, who has been working with Eric Clapton for years. I guess you could call Clapton’s music Rock, but Gadd was trained in rudiments and played in the Army/Navy Band during the Vietman War era (a good way to not have to go shoot or be shot at!). I just watched a documentary on Clapton’s 2014 World Tour, and Gadd played very few fills (the opposite of Neil Peart, who never passes up that opportunity), focusing on establishing the structure of each song, and creating the feel and groove of the band. Gadd is a fantastic drummer (one of the handful of best in the world, imo) who can, and does, play one of the best drum solos I’ve ever heard and seen. Very advanced technical ability, but he doesn’t feel the need to constantly prove it by over-playing, a rarity.

Seeing a Led Zeppelin tribute band live last night reminded me of just how guilty John Bonham was of over-playing (completely unnecessary fills which in no way advanced the song, and in fact just duplicated what someone else was playing), and how his style of playing was adopted by the vast majority of Rock drummers that followed him. Over-playing is by far the number one complaint about drummers by other musicians. Good ones, that is ;-) .

Perfectly put, shadorne. Here’s a little story illustrating a related point:

I was hired for a session, the recording of a single song for the soundtrack of a low-budget movie. I had worked with the producer before, so he knew what he was getting. The song was a simple Pop/Rock thing, the focus on the vocal and lyric (sung by a Grandson of one of The Lennon Sisters!), and I played what I considered appropriate. The producer kept asking me to play more like Keith Moon, even instructing me where he wanted "fills". I said "That would walk all over the vocal". He said "Oh, I don’t care about that". !!!!!

I put in a little more (as much as I could bring myself to), but it wasn’t enough for him. So he ended up doing a take with himself on drums (he has been a pro drummer), and submitted that take to the movie’s director, who rejected the track! A take with my playing was submitted, and approved. Point made.

goofyfoot, Keltner may sometimes appear merely "solid" (as in The Traveling Wilburys), but is much more than that. Ry Cooder arranges his recordings around Jim’s availability, and will not record without him. Listen to his work with Ry and Bill Frisell; very creative and unique playing.

Mickey Dolenz a better drummer than Ringo and Charlie? Wow. "Each to his own, said the lady as she kissed the cow", as my mama used to say.

It appears that many here appraise the abilities of drummers the way athletes are ;-).

Dave Edmunds and Nick Lowe’s favorite Rock ’n’ Roll drummer is Terry Williams (Rockpile, Carlene Carter, Dire Straits). Tom Ardolino of NRBQ was an unusually creative drummer (recently deceased), but not one whom anyone merely looking for technical chops would appreciate. He had a wicked sense of musical humor, something missing in the playing of a lot drummers, even those mentioned here.

When technique is the yardstick by which a drummer is measured, of course those from the Jazz world rise to the top. Rock ’n’ Roll does not necessarily require the same skill set to play really well, and in fact can sabotage the music (see my post mentioning Danny Gatton, a guitarist everyone should give a listen to. Vince gill nicknamed him "The Humbler").

Jim Keltner (Ry Cooder, George Harrison, Bill Frisell, Traveling Wilburys) is one Jazz-trained drummer who really understands how to play in a Rock ’n’ Roll band. Jim said he wished he played more like Roger Hawkins. Few here appear to understand and appreciate why Jim would feel that way. Jim is also a huge fan of the playing of Levon Helm. Keltner and another Jim, Gordon, played together in Mad Dogs & Englishmen (Joe Cocker), the best double-drum team since the two guys in The Funk Brothers (the Motown house band). Gordon’s playing is so, so musical. He’s on Dave Mason’s Alone Together album, and was in Derek & The Dominoes with Clapton, as well as in Traffic with the aforementioned Roger Hawkins.

Clapton and Winwood are two guys with great taste (remember that quaint attribute? ;-) in drummers. It was after hearing Levon Helm in The Band that Clapton realized the error of his (and everyone else’s) ways, and disbanded Cream. He went up to The Band’s house in Woodstock (Big Pink), hanging around waiting for them to ask him to join. When he finally realized they didn’t require his services ;-), he joined Delaney & Bonnie’s road band, where he met Jim Gordon. Clapton’s current drummer is Steve Gadd, another Jazz drummer who really understands how to play Rock. Many don’t.

There have been numerous very talented drummers who have made terrible music. Carmine Appice (Vaniila, ugh, Fudge, Rod Stewart, Jeff Beck) and Jeff Porcaro (the horrid Toto) spring to mind. Would the music of, say, The Beatles, have been "better" with either of them on the drummers throne? Or rather perhaps not as good?

All great comments. As always, taste is personal. For instance, I love Bonham's snare sound (a 6.5" deep metal Ludwig shell), but hate Chad's (that high-pitched wood piccolo sound).

What constitutes over-playing is a matter of opinion. The tale I have told before bears repeating. Master guitarist Danny Gatton, after a few songs into the first gig with his new drummer, had the following exchange with him:

Danny: "You know that fancy stuff you're playing?"

drummer: "Yeah."

Danny: "Don't."

Bonham's playing absolutely works in Led Zeppelin, the same way Keith Moon's does in The Who. Neither could have played on the Aretha Franklin recordings Jerry Wexler produced in Muscle Shoals, which feature the great Roger Hawkins on drums. And Roger's playing would not be appropriate in Zeppelin or The Who. It worked awfully well in late Traffic, though. Horses for courses.

One more thing: Taste, economy, and lack of over-playing need not restrict a drummer to playing nothing more than keeping time, playing only the 2/4 backbeat and four-on-the-floor bass drum patterns. Do yourself a favor and listen to Levon Helm's playing on the first Band album, and his and Band pianist Richard Manuel's (he's a very creative, really inventive and interesting drummer) playing on the second. And for really wild, off-the-wall playing, Earl Palmer on the many early Rock 'n' Roll recordings he played on---Little Richard, for instance. He swung like mad, and had chops to die for. NOBODY played like Earl!

Not just drummers need good time. Ask any recording engineer about guitarists doing overdubs; many "rush", not laying back and waiting for the groove, so hot to play their solo that they jump out ahead of the rhythm section. I’ve seen it time and time again in the studio.

Bluegrass musicians have the best sense of time I’ve seen or heard. Since they all create the groove---Bluegrass bands don’t have drummers---they really lock together. Some of the best music being made today, imo, is Bluegrass. Great songs, great singing, great musicianship, and no over-playing drummer to have to rein in!

I was out on a little cruise this afternoon on the Willamette River in Portland, and there just happened to be a Led Zeppelin tribute band (tribute bands are huge up here in the Northwest) playing in the lounge. Watching and listening to the band’s drummer (who was pretty darn good), I was reminded of what I so dislike about Bonham---his playing was so "literal", so un-poetic. It didn’t have any elegance, any grace. Almost rude! His bass drum triplets (one of the tricks he is known for) were played just to show he could do it, not to serve any higher purpose; they didn’t have anything to do with what anyone else was playing or singing, or to the song itself (of course, Led Zeppelin didn’t have much in the way of songs anyway). That’s the lack of musicality I’m always talking about.

To hear what musicality in a Rock ’n’ Roll drummer sounds like, listen to Earl Palmer, Jim Gordon, Levon Helm, and Roger Hawkins. The masters! Three out of four were studio musicians, one the drummer in the best band Rock ’n’ Roll has so far produced.

You are of course right, Steve. Ringo was the best drummer for The Beatles, Keith Moon the best for The Who (though Zak Starkey, Ringo’s kid, is doing a fantastic job in The Who now. I saw Keith with The Who live twice, and he was a possessed madman. I mean that literally).

But seriously, take a look at Earl Palmer’s recording credits on the thread about him on the Steve Hoffman Forum. Astounding! If ANYONE can be called the best, it is he.

All the drummers mentioned here have their own, identifiable style, which is the important thing. It is said Buddy Rich thought John Bonham's technique was vastly over-rated, and did a spot-on imitation of him. But Bonham was a very influential drummer, THE most so of our era---the Gene Krupa of Rock.

But the talent of the musicians gets you only so far; if they are playing "right", they are serving the music first and foremost. If The Beatles songs hadn’t been so good, who would care about Ringo? The song is the same as the script is to a movie; sure, you need good actors to bring it to life, but without a good script you got nothin’. Forget good musician’s, give me good songs!

Another fact: Though Earl Palmer was a New Orleans Jazz drummer, and at the end of his life was playing in a Jazz trio at Chadneys Steak House in Burbank, CA (where I and the bass player of Los Straitjackets---himself a drummer and huge Earl Palmer fan---went to watch and listen to him), he is credited with actually inventing Rock ’n’ Roll drumming.

There is a thread on Steve Hoffman’s Forum where people offer their opinion on Earl, and there you can find an incredible list of the recordings on which he played. Far and away the "best" drummer to ever play Rock ’n’ Roll. Not just technically, but in terms of great song parts, excitement, creativity, and a sense of musical humour that tops even that of Keith Moon!

Ginger has played some Rock music, and played in some Rock bands, but his basic approach to playing drums is that of a Jazz drummer. That’s one element of my "problem" with Cream, and Ginger’s playing in that band; their music was basically blues, but played by non-Blues players, at least Ginger and Jack Bruce. It doesn’t "work", it sounds "wrong". Jazz and Blues are very different musics, opposites in fact. Before Cream, Ginger and Jack were in The Graham Bond Organization together, a Trad Jazz band in London. Prior to Cream, Ginger had never played Rock music, or in a Rock band. His drumming models are Art Blakely and Elvin Jones, pure Jazz players.

Steve Jordan (the drummer Keith Richards chose for his "Hail, Hail Rock 'n' Roll" Chuck Berry documentary movie band), in his testimonial to the brilliance of Band drummer Levon Helm, described Levon’s approach to playing drums as that of a Blues player, and I agree. The fact that Levon played Rock ’n’ Roll in a R & R band does not change that fact.

Interviewer: "Could you play in the Buddy Rich Big Band?"

Keith Moon: "No, and Buddy Rich couldn’t play in The Who."