I have just heard back from a person that implemented the Helix Speaker cables. He was very happy with them until he changed the amp to a Vitus Audio SIA 025.
The
Vitus employs a "symmetrical" design approach (think 100% Balanced) from the inputs to the speaker terminals. This means that both +ve and -ve terminals both carry "the signal" - a bit like a balanced power supply. It has no real neutral.
The manufacturer clearly warns users to never ground the black speaker outputs.
This resulted in a terrible sound when the Helix cables were used, because of the coiled neutral
I would have to believe that many other geometries are not suited to this amp, in particular some or the TOTL Cardas cables and perhaps Kimber Kable, because their capacitance is significantly hier than other speaker cables and this amp is a high current solid state design
This is the first time I have had anyone report problems with the Helix Speaker Cables.
So they are not for every system
Regards - Steve |
I was recently asked... Do you consider these cables shielded? For example, could the ICs be used on a phono stage and keep noise out? And here was my response... --------------------------------- I've had some good and one bad result in this area. I think it depends on the many factors that can come into play in an audio system e.g. - grounding of components
- for example, NAIM only grounds the neutral on their source components - not the amps
- their approach often leads to hum when non-Naim source components are used
- grounding the neutral side of the amp circuit will fix this issue - by making a grounding lead
- grounding of the turntable arm
- if done right there should be no problem, but many times it is arm grounding is incomplete
- Cartridge selection
- some cartridges can be more prone to RFI
- e.g. Grace cartridges can produce hum on some Rega TT's
- wiring of the arm
- I use a one piece harness from the cartridge to the phono stage
- some TT's has a joint to a larger gauge cable at the arm anchor point
- some have phono sockets at the rear of the turntable
- Any of the above can be problematic
- the phono stage
- good ones mitigate a lot of RFI issues
- phono stages with grounded power supplies are often the best choice
- tidy cable positioning
- poor positioning will exacerbate the situation
These are the reasons I tend not to recommend Helix for TT use. Trying to debug a hum is always problematicHaving said that - A friend with an all tube system experienced terrible humOther DIYers have reported excellent results, but their gear was top quality and they appreciated the need for cable positioning - some with tube and some with solid stateI generally recommend using 24 gauge wire for the signal and 20 gauge Mil-Spec for the neutral with a 4:1 or even 5:1 ratio of neutral to signal wire length - the reason for such light gauge is that thinner gauge wires are less responsive to RFIThe helix acts like a faraday cage for some protection, but it is not a "fully screened" solutionAs an example - I tried a standard IC (16 gauge Duelund signal and 2 x 16 gauge mil-spec) in my system and held the IC against a Helix power cables in my clenched fist - with the amp on Phono and turned up to full volume I did hearjust a little humBy comparison - you could hear hum at normal volumes on my friends all tube system with the cables separatedSo it is not as simple as i would like in order to recommend using Helix for TT'sIt's more a case of try a regular Helix IC and if that works go for the lighter gauge version--------------------------------------- So, under the "right conditions" The helix Interconnect will provide exceptional performance between a turntable and phono stage. Unfortunately I cannot say exactly what those conditions are, but if you already have a pair of IC's, try connecting them between your TT and phono stage to see if there is any hum - the "conditions" in your system may be "just perfect" NOTE: If your Turntable has RCA socket outputs on the rear and there is some RFI interference in the form of HUM or you can hear a radio channel - all is not lost... - TT's that have RCA Sockets generally also have a ground wire terminal that should be connected to the ground terminal on your phono stage. - one might think the neutral side of the RCA is connected to that ground wire terminal, but there is a case for not connecting them, so leaving them disconnected is the best option - I found a simple solution to this problem on the web - Simply attach a small piece of wire from the ground terminal around the neutral side of each RCA socket - apparently it works very well BTW - for best grounding results from TT to phono stage I ensure a Spade or Ring connectors makes the connection - NOT bare wire Regards - Steve |
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@svampebob - I can’t say I have noticed an abnormally long break-in with speaker cables, particularly if they use the Air Adaption, but it is possible that the Bananas (or other connectors) are what is causing an overly long burn-in.
I mention this because the KLEI RCA’s sound best after 300-400 hours and I believe my initial pair of speaker cables took 200-300 hours, but that was back a couple of years now, so I am working from my less than perfect memory here.
I have reused all my plugs, so the break-in times of any more recent cables I have built can vary and cannot be considered a "benchmark".
What I find interesting about your post is that you have managed to isolate a specific range of frequencies that seem to be impacted by break-in.
Whereas, what I listen for is clarity and details in the venue acoustics, which in turn are responsible for changes in imaging, specifically artist focus and placement
Definitely something to ponder for the future.👍
Thanks for the update - Steve
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@mawe - thanks - I was NOT taking into consideration the implications associated with the number of strands and the width of each strand, together with the dielectric constant of the insulation - I was merely looking at the relative conductivity of the metal in each wire type in the electrical pathway.
@rego - thanks also - I forgot to take into consideration the impact of the connectors and the voltage drop across each "section" of the electrical pathway.
Thanks guys - much appreciated
Regards - Steve
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@kurt12k - history has us believing that for speaker cables, generally a thicker gauge provides better performance. Numerous cases of using a thicker gauge wire have proven to be beneficial, primarily because a thicker cable reduces the overall resistance. Fast forward to this point in time and we now know much more... - solid strands of wire is able to carry more current than stranded wire - insulation (i.e. the dielectric constant) is responsible for a lot more distortions within the wire itself than previously thought - the lower the D.C. the better - higher quality copper (or silver) in wire provides better conduction of the signal, both in dynamics and clarity So if you look at the current carrying ability of a generic 18 gauge solid strand copper wire you will see it can carry far more current than the same gauge of stranded wire - see this link... https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-gauges-d_419.htmlREADERS PLEASE NOTE: The values cited in the table and the example below, should only be used as an "approximation", because there are many other factors to consider with AC signals of varying frequencies. But for the sake of simplicity - to get a "rough approximation" of the power handling capabilities of an 18 gauge solid core wire - the chart shows it can "handle" 9.5 amps so if we were to use this 18 gauge wire for mains purposes i.e. in a 120 v circuit - we know that V x A = (Watts), - so 120 x 9.5 = 1,140 (Watts) So it looks like 18 gauge would handle significantly higher capacities than a large percentage of amps on the market would require? - However, with an audio signal there are very large dynamic transient peaks that have to be considered AND also varying frequencies - which complicates matters So for most speaker cable applications I recommend using at least two strands of the 18 gauge solid copper wire from VH Audio, gently twisted together - effectively, 15 gauge.. NOTE: If you are using an amp > 600 watts output, with a 4 ohm (or lower) speaker load, I would recommend 3 strands. Otherwise, using more strands will probably not achieve much in the way of noticeable improvements when used in the cables that use the Helix geometry.. You could use strands of 18 gauge Solid Silver, for ultimate performance, but I think you will be entering the world of "diminishing returns". My focus is on "Bang for the Buck", so I tend to select wire combinations that perform very well, but keep the cables on the "more affordable" side of crazy.. I have conducted tests comparing an identical 16 gauge stranded signal wire to a 12 gauge stranded signal wire and there were no perceivable improvements observed in my system using the thicker gauge wire. Also - For many years I used a high quality 10 gauge speaker cable, until I auditioned a 16 gauge speaker cable with a larger gauge neutral. - The 16 gauge outperformed the 10 gauge in every aspect we tend to use to evaluate sound quality, including bass fullness, bass depth and bass speed - i.e. the metrics often cited as being noticeably improved when using a larger gauge cable. FYI: My amp is a 135 watt per channel high current design and my speakers are full range 6 ohm towers. Ultimately, the choice is yours - and whatever your budget will allow :-) Hope that helps - regards - Steve |
Everyone - many thanks for your support. Glad to hear you are enjoying the benefits of the Helix Geometry cables.
Nice to hear people are trying their own variants on the basic Helix geometry as posted on the web site, because there are simply far too many permutations for this guy to try.
The parts and wires listed on the site are my own preferences based on performance, cost, and availability. As such they may not be the absolute best products available, but they do perform to a very high level for what I consider to be a "reasonable cost". But I do leave it up to the individual to take the Helix design to their "comfort level" - and feedback is always very much appreciated.
As I find out about other products from other DIYer’s, I update the site accordingly.
Over the past year there has been a couple of revisions to the entire lineup. So visiting the site a couple of times a year for any developments may be beneficial.
There will be an upcoming revision posted on the site in about 3-4 weeks detailing changes to the signal wire on the Speaker Cables thanks to Wig.
@wig has tried the 18 gauge solid copper wire from VH Audio for the signal wires on his speaker cables and reported very audible improvements over the Duelund Cotton/Oil wire, so I am just waiting on the postal service to deliver my order of the wire before I try it out for myself. but Wig’s comments sound very positive and from what I have observed of this wire in the power cables, it should be a winner!
FYI: The Helix design (as posted on the web site), is used by DIYers from around the world and so far I have seen postings from around the world including China, Chile, Hong Kong, Russia, Australia, Canada, USA, Bulgaria, Austria and the list goes on.
And a few DIYers have made significant contributions to the site with their own extensions to the Helix Geometry e.g. "The Bad Ass Helix Bi-wire" speaker cable and the XLR Helix Image interconnect.
@grannyring - FYI - the parts/materials listed for the power cables on the web site are the best I have tried to date. The Source Component cable is exceptional, but for amps, using 4 strands of the silver wire would start getting a little expensive, which is why I used copper, but the choice is yours.
For those of you that may be sitting on the fence, or for those of you that believe my reasonings as to why the Helix geometry provides such great performance is just "nonsense" - I would just say - try them :-)
- You do not have to use the wires and connectors shown on my web site.
- I started a lot of this development using CAT6 for interconnects
- and Romex for power cables.
Anyhow - enough from me - thanks to everyone that has jumped on the Helix train. It will stop at any station so you can get onboard anytime
Any questions - just ask :-)
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Speaker Cable Update! I received the 18 gauge solid copper with AirLok insulation from VH Audio yesterday. It took almost 4 weeks to arrive at my house in Canada - via USPS/Canada post. This is the longest any product purchased from VH Audio (normally only takes a couple of weeks), so I guess Covid 19 slowed things down a little. The upgrade was simple - replace the existing 16 gauge Duelund signal conductor, with two strands of the 18 gauge wire. - I twisted the two strands together for their entire length with a "gentle twist" i.e. one complete twist every 4-5 inches - I spaced wood beads about every 1.25" and secured them in place with a very small dab of Hot Glue - Threaded the wire/bead assembly through the center of the Helix Coil and attached the Banana plugs. Complete instructions can be viewed on the web site in a couple of days... http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-speaker-cable.htmlThe results were very noticeable as soon as I installed them... - the image expanded a lot and the precision placement of instruments and artists had more precision, It is now very wide with lots of instruments and artists much wider than the speaker locations - details were noticeably improved, with more noticeable background vocals and instruments - clarity had improved, possibly due to the improved imaging. - Dynamics were even more punchy than before I thought the previous version that used the 16 Gauge Duelund wire with Cotton/oil insulation was probably as good as it was going to get. But based on feedback from @wig, who had tried it, I thought I should also take the plunge I am so glad I did ! Unfortunately, my budget will not stretch to try the 18 gauge Solid Silver with AirLok insulation from VH Audio. At almost $900 just for the wire, it’s a little out of my snack bracket :-). But the Solid copper wire has exceeded my expectations, So it is well worth upgrading. i.e. if you are using one of the other wire options listed on the web site. Regards - Steve |
Bruno - Winding the neutral and ground in opposite directions will complicate the build process and will make the cable much thicker.
But - Will it make an audible difference?
If you wound the ground around the Live wire and then would the Neutral wire(s) around the Ground/live wire assembly in opposite directions it would provide a greater gap between the Live wire and the Neutral wire. This should provide some benefit.
However, the power cables I have made are all 120v and not 230v, so the higher voltage may cause more interference., which means the additional space would be an advantage.
Could you please post a link to the site where you read this - I would be very interested in seeing related information before providing a definitive YES or NO answer
Many Thanks. - Steve
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UPDATE - I now have 3 days continuous burn in on the speaker cables and I am finding them to be improving almost daily.
I like the refined fine details and dynamics the Solid OCC Copper with AirLok bring to the sound over the Duelund wire previously used
Even Internet Radio is starting to sound very good :-)
One thing I have noticed recently is the price of the 10 gauge from Take Five Audio - they had to find a new supplier a few weeks back and the price has since more than doubled. It originally cost less than the 12 gauge.
Whilst I like the robustness of the 10 gauge wire for maintaining the coil shape, I'm thinking the 12 gauge should perform just as well when using the 2 x 18 gauge (effectively 15 gauge) because it maintain a 3 gauge difference between the signal and the neutral and it is pretty robust in maintaining the coil shape also.
A fellow DIYer is trying 12 gauge - I will keep you all updated.
Regards - Steve
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OK, I have just completed the web site updates with the Double Barrel "adaptions" + pictures.
http://image99.net/blog/
Again- special Thanks to @grannyring , for the Double Barrel (Schroeder method) adaption. It is very much appreciated. And many thanks to @wig , for starting this thread Enjoy - Steve |
@celo - that looks the same as the one I have.
I think it's about 5/16" dia
Regards |
@maxima95 - until recently, I too was concerned about this aspect. Here is my thought process We hear a lot from cable manufacturers about the safety aspect of cables, but home audio cables are "normally" fairly stationary. But if you are selling a cable you cannot be certain of the use it will be put too, so you design in LOTS of additional "protection" e.g. Furutech cable is perhaps one of the safest cables around - it can withstand many harsh chemicals - just the thing you need for home audio :-) DH Labs realized this when they designed a line of bulk cable for home audio use - it used great copper like Furutech, but it was not shielded and the outer sleeve was not chemical resistant There are people out there that has a maze of cables around their system and are not too careful in how they handle them. The result is cable can get worn and break WRT MY helix cables - I only touch/remove any of my cables a few times a year - they are not stepped on or abused - I always hold the plug when removing them - not the cable - they do not have liquids poured on them - they are not subject to extreme temperatures So I have become more comfortable with using Cotton, especially on the live wire, because it is inside a "cage". - The wires around it are protected with Teflon. - The live wire cannot be touched by people under "normal" operation. - The only "threat" with cotton is if someone were to spill water on them and I am careful not to have water around my entire system. Is there a possibility that the wire will heat up and set fire to the cotton insulation ? - well that should not happen under normal operating conditions because the solid core wire I use is capable of handling up to 34 amps - that’s 19 amps over the "standard" 15 amp breaker trip current. - So the breaker should trip long before the wire gets hot enough to ignite the cotton. So fast forward to my later post which mentions using Teflon tube - the main reason for this was to provide an alternative to cotton for people that might be concerned about using cotton. WRT the difference between the Dielectric Constant values of the two sleeves - I believe the difference in sound quality between the two would be distinguishable if you listened intently. - So either is a good choice I leave it up to the individual to use whichever insulation method suits their own needs in order to achieve the performance they feel is safe. @wig has reported excellent results using the 12 gauge solid core without removing the Teflon insulation, so that is a third very safe option. So to answer your question - It is probably more prudent to adopt the insulation that you are comfortable with - perhaps leave the Teflon Insulation in place - it will not keep you awake at night - the sound quality will still be excellent The choice is yours... - Cotton - Teflon tube - or - Leave the Teflon insulation in place We all have limits to the things we are willing to try in this crazy hobby BTW - I do understand you concerns - I check my cables frequently during the burn-in process for changes in temperature.. They have always remained at room temperature. I hope that helps Regards - Steve |
Everyone - many thanks for your very positive feedback - I’m so glad you are all finding the Helix cables are working out on your various systems.
My own speaker cables (recently updated with the VH Audio solid copper wire) have completed day 8 of their continous burn in period i.e. 192 hours, so I have finally given the amp a rest and turned it off. There maybe smaller improvements to be heard, but since the neutral and banana plugs were already burned in I think any additional improvement will be minimal.
The Solid copper from VH Audio is by far the best I have tried to date for the signal wire in speaker cables.
I can confirm @wig ’s findings, in that, as you convert more of your cables to the Helix geometry, the better your entre system will sound.
If anyone has questions - just ask - I’m happy to answer them if I can
Regards - WW
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So, I answer questions from DIYer’s from all over, with vastly differing skill levels of building experience. As such, I often get the feeling that some of them might be biting off more than they can chew. I got to thinking about the questions I answer (almost daily) and thought it might be good to take a more "tempered view" of these three latest versions of the Helix cable - sort of a "sanity check". Also, I know @wig , @grannyring and myself have logged hundreds of hours building and listening to cables over the years and we each have a specific approach when it comes to comparing cables - i.e. things to listen for. - I know I have trained my ears over the past 10 years and now have over 70 audition tracks I regularly use for auditions - From a listening perspective, I believe the improvements between these three versions might prove more difficult to discern for a more "casual listener". Another concern is that less proficient DIYer’s may find some aspects of Building #3 to be challenging, even for a more experienced builder. - Helix IC cables are more complicated to build than your average DIY IC cable and good soldering skills are definitely a requirement. The wires used in all three builds are... - SIGNAL WIRE - 18 gauge Solid Copper with AirLok insulation from VH Audio - NEURAL WIRE - 16 gauge Cryo Silver Plated stranded Mil-Spec wire with Teflon insulation from Take Five Audio So here are my "more tempered" thoughts on these three builds. #1 -Single Wire for both signal and neutral coil- this is the original cable currently listed on my web site
- provides excellent performance that rivals or betters most TOTL cable brands on the market
- the easiest cable of the three to build, even for a novice DIYer.
- It’s also the most affordable option
#2 -Two wires for the signal wire and One wire for the neutral coil- by comparison to #1, this cable is a little more articulate, with improved clarity and a more detailed and expansive image
- a little more challenging to build, but even a novice could build with a little determination and thought
- it’s also pretty easy to upgrade to this version from #1
#3 Two wires for both the the signal wire and neutral coil- by comparison to #2, this cable provides some additional improvements in articulation, clarity and image
- The audible difference between #2 and #3 is actually quite small and the increased difficulty of the build I believe makes previous cable building and soldering experience a must.
- But if it’s Audio Nirvana you are after? - #3 is the cable to build :-)
Opting to build #1 or #2 is definitely easier and still results in a cable that provides exceptional audio performance - so don’t think you have to opt for #3 simply because it was found to offer the very best sound quality. As I get older I find myself "tempering" my expectations with a solid dose of "reality". Saves me a lot of frustration - and money :-) I plan to keep all three cables in my system for future reference purposes, but I will not feel I am "missing out" when listening to sources that use #1 or #2, to me they are just a little different Hope that helps - Steve |
HELIX PC Update...
I was recently asked what differences could be heard using the Solid Silver VS. the Solid Copper from VH Audio for the LIVE conductor in my PC’s
Since I had just made a 5ft cable using two strands of Solid Copper for the live conductor, I compared it to the PC on my streamer that uses a single strand of Solid Silver from VH Audio for the live conductor. All other wires were 14 gauge Silver plated Mil-Spec.
To my complete surprise I could not tell any difference between the two wire types.
Perhaps there could be a minor improvement to be had using the Solid Silver wire on components of a higher resolution capability?
- But on the Bluesound Node 2i that I tested the cables with there was no discernable difference.
This Solid Copper wire from VH Audio appears to be exceptional - perhaps I’ll try it on the IC’s :-)
@wig - So glad to hear the Helix DIY’s are working out
I now use Helix PC’s on my guitar amps and they work wonders there also
Have you thought about trying them on a TV?
- they do amazing things for colour and blackness and adds more definition to deep shadow areas of the picture.
- I also had to turn the brightness down on my Samsung 4K.
Regards - Steve
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@wig - that would be great - I think your DAC would be a better component to test these PC's with for sure.
Just from a conductivity perspective the silver should be a little more dynamic and perhaps a little "crisper" - everything else should be the same given the only difference is the actual metal
Looking forward to your observations :-)
Cheers
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@wig - I just looked at the photo's on your system page and saw your PC.
I thought my Red/Green PC's looked cool, but your Black and White version looks way more professional, especially with the Carbon style plugs.
Who knew, you can have PERFORMANCE and GOOD LOOKS !
Helix DIYer's are coming up with some cracking "style" choices
- One guy built the Speaker Cables using the Black Neutral (Helix) with the Solid Copper with Red Insulation for the Live conductor
- but he stained each bead BLACK
- they too look very stylish
Thanks to all who have embraced the Helix Design - it keeps me going :-)
Regards - Steve
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Talking a Step Back:
I mentioned in a previous post about making Helix PC’s for my Guitar Amps - for these cables I took a step back in their construction techniques in order to provide a more durable cable
1. I use a 12 gauge Duelund stranded wire with the polymer insulation for flexibility
2. I added a cotton expandable sleeve over the live wire for internal abrasion resistance
3. I use a nylon outer expandable sleeve for external abrasion resistance
Unlike Audio cables, which tend to sit motionless at the back of a system, guitar amp cables have a more dynamic lifespan and must be able to take more of a beating...
- they are connected/disconnected and flexed repeatedly
- they may get trodden on of lay on rough surfaces
Even with these precautions, from a wear perspective, Helix PC’s ARE NOT as durable as a piece of Furutech cable.
PERFORMANCE: - Due to the more dynamic nature of guitar amps, I really could not tell the difference between the "Audio" and the "Live Music" versions when used on my guitar amp..
I will be posting an update to the web site on this I a couple of days
@dbass - they are coming soon
Regards - Steve
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@dbass - I do not believe they will be better than the Mundorf because silver is a better conductor, but they should offer a similar level of performance for "most metrics", just not quite as dynamic and perhaps not quite as good at imaging.
I could be wrong - But I've come to realize there are so many variables that sometimes you just have to try stuff to evaluate "a hunch"
Regards - Steve
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Just an FYI - SINGLE ENDED or XLR ?
I just received these observations regarding XLR vs. Single Ended Interconnects...
I have compared XLR and RCA Helix Image interconnects.
My XLR cable uses Neutrik NC3MXX connectors, each pair (one for +, one for -) of UP-OCC Neotech 18 AWG copper wire is twisted inside a teflon tube. RCA cable uses KLE Absolute Harmony connectors and two Neotech UP-OCC copper wires 18 AWG are inside their own teflon tubes.
Verdict: RCA version is better. I don’t know if it’s separated tubes for each wire or connectors but single-ended interconnect just sounds more musical for me. With balanced cable the sound is more straightforward and less refined.
But it’s not bad, of course.
I actually believe which cable type is ultimately superior is in fact due to the internal circuitry of the components being connected.
But as others have observed - there is very little difference between the two
I think both cable types perform to very similar levels and if you want the absolute best sound - then both cables should be built and tried in your own system before coming to any conclusions.
Regards - Steve
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@hnnaum - that wire will NOT hold the coil shape.
My self and others have tried different wires for the neutral and all have found that the silver plated Mil-Spec wire provides the best performance from a sound quality perspective, but also holds the coil shape extremely well while remaining very flexible.
A single solid copper wire will also work, but it is not as good from a sound quality perspective
Hope that helps - Steve |
@dbass - Got sidetracked by wonderful weather :-)
No update as of today, but I will try it in the next couple of weeks
Regards - Steve |
@hnnaum - that looks like a very good substitute
Good Luck - Steve |
@wig - nice looking cables - but how do they sound???
Better than you previous Helix Cables ?
How much better?
What changed?
Don't just leave us in suspense - LOL
Thanks for the update :-) |
@wig , @grannyring @dbass - I've just been listening to a pair of 1 meter IC's that now has a single strand of 18 gauge VH Audio Solid Copper, in place of the single strand of 1mm dia (17-18 gauge) Mundorf Solid Silver/gold wire. FYI: I did not use the cotton sleeve as with the Mundorf wire, mainly because the VH audio wire has insulation.
RE: IC's, I can confirm Wig's findings almost to the letter, the only difference being, I found the Mundorf wire to be a smidgeon fuller sounding and a tad warmer, but we are talking about a difference so small the I had to listen intently on my system at least, but again, there may be more of a difference on higher resolving systems. Every other metric we tend to use to assess sonic performance was identical to my ears at least.
RE: Power cables: - I have also now compared power cables and although I did not hear as much of a difference between the VH Audio Silver vs. VH Audio copper as Wig observed, I did believe that there would be a more discernible improvement when used on components capable of higher resolution.
RE:
Schroeder method. - I'll also wait for @grannyring 's observations. - It's an approach that does seem to provide improvements using conventional cable geometry.
To all - Your modifications and observations posted above are invaluable in shaping the future versions of the Helix cables, since I am but one guy with one modest system, so when others are willing to try other wires and approaches on an array of systems/components I really do appreciate the time/effort/costs involved.
MANY THANKS - Steve
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@gregm - I use the 16 gauge Mil-spec as listed on my web site with the Mundorf wire and it works extremely well.
If oyu use any thicker gauge then it would be difficult to attach the RCA housing because the finished cable is too thick.
Regards - Steve |
@roberttdid - I have been advised by many in the past of the points you have posted above (and more) and have been "ridiculed" in my approach and design. Many people on the various forums where the helix design have been discussed would "appear" to have significantly more electrical knowledge than myself, but their comments are purely conjecture, since none of them have actually tried the cables for themselves at the time they made the comments Most high end commercial products are designed by people with far more knowledge/experience about cable design than myself, in labs with huge amounts of resources. And yet, my cables continue to outperform many of the high end commercial products available. WRT Your comment about the coil not reducing magnetic interference - I tried a simple test back in time, to verify the effectiveness of the Helix coil for this purpose... - I selected my phono stage on my amp - I turned the volume to full - I held in my clenched fist a standard power cable and a Helix IC connecting the TT to the phono stage - I observed hum - I repeated the same process but using the helix power cable and the same Helix IC - the hum was reduced significantly to almost zero So, I concluded (rightly or wrongly) that the helix coil was having the same effect as a faraday cage in reducing EMI/RFI - perhaps I am wrong, but my ears told me otherwise. I would love to partner up with someone that has the , knowledge experience and equipment to be able to measure the effectiveness of these cables, so I could explain WHY these cables work so well, but until then I will continue to trust my ears. One of the "side effects" of implementing the Helix cables across an entire system that I have observed... - the solid state components tend to run noticeably cooler. - I actually measure the reduced heat output and for source components they can run 3-4 Celsius cooler - and my amp runs 5-6 degrees Celsius cooler. Why? - I do not know, but I see reduced heat as a good side effect If you can shed any "light" as to why the cables work so well I would be more than willing to listen, since my reasoning’s are not verified by actual measurement, or as some like to point out - a lack of sound electrical knowledge BTW - I have posted capacitance and inductance values for the various cables on my web site http://image99.net/blog/files/0e1ba96cb878bd4ad7c14097b25d258a-82.html Also, many thanks for your very civil post (honestly) - most people that "disagree" with the Helix design just say I am posting nonsense and should not be believed. (or words to that effect). Regards - Steve |
@dbass - the solder you have chosen is very good, so it will provide great performance sonically.
The main reason I specified WBT 4% silver on my web site was to get the point across that a "quality solder" should be used..
When I first started using the KLE Innovations RCA plugs I did notice a sonic improvement when I switched from the solder I purchased from the local hardware store, to the WBT.
I now use a
Eutectic solder instead of WBT and have not noticed any degradation in sound quality and the joints are very reliable
Because of the rapid state change from liquid to solid, the
Eutectic solders make a better joint both electrically and mechanically
- By comparison, the WBT solder does not transform as quickly and can result in a poor joint if your hand is a little shaky, like mine
Regards - Steve |
@stringreen - very similar, but only their IC's - they employ different geometries for speaker and power cables
Regards - Steve |
@roberttdid - yes it's infra red, but a pretty good one - for the amp I measured in two very specific places - on the faceplate near the heatsink and on the heatsink. Each time the music has been played for a similar length of time and at a similar volume level, with similar tracks. Same process with the source components. A similar experience was observed with the Bluesound Powernode 2 on my AV system and a couple of phono stages. WRT:
Where it won't is say near a transformer in an aluminum case, or other incidences of magnetic coupling.
I try to keep my cables well away from transformers of any kind :-) Regards - Steve |
@roberttdid WRT..
Your cable is not going to make a bit of difference to the temp of the Powernode. It has a switching supply and nothing your cable does is going to make any difference to the efficiency except maybe make it worse.
Since you did not OBSERVE the reduction in temperature and the associated ambient conditions and the level the music was played at, you are not really in a position to make that assertion and your words are simply conjecture. My comments were not based on a single A/B comparison, but observations and temperature measurements over a number of weeks. It may not be the style of observation that you would consider definitive proof, but I consider it something to make others that adopt the Helix cables aware of. Anyway - I have nothing else to contribute on this matter - I'll simply leave it for others, i.e. who use the Helix cables, to perhaps come to their own conclusions based on "observation". Enjoy the music - Steve |
@dbass - I concur with what @wig said :-)
Plus - in addition to stellar low level performance, I find I am able to listen to music at significantly louder levels without fatigue.
e.g. Classical music can be a little overbearing at higher levels with most other cables, but I find I can now listen at concert levels without any issues. Opera is another genre that I find is also far more pleasurable with the Helix.
Good luck with the power cable build
Regards - Steve |
Well, @grannyring - now you’ve gone an done it - now I have to upgrade my IC’s - yet again :-)
For once - Rain started play - I decided to put a rainy day to good use and upgrade a set of interconnects with a second identical wire for the signal conductor - basically, half the approach grannyring has tried - he also doubled up on the neutral wires.
I have been auditioning a Helix IC with the 18 gauge Aolid Copper wire with AirLok from VH Audio. It competed favourably with the Solid Silver Mundorf wire at about 1/5th the cost. So today, I upgraded these IC’s with a second identical 18 gauge signal wire
The results were impressive to say the least and the cables are not even burned in at all yet.
Improvements...
- more precise artist placement within the image
- improved articulation of very small instrument details e.g. plucking guitar strings - they now "pop"
- improved clarity across the board
- overall sound is more lively and less compressed
So what’s in the cable I am listening too?
- a Helix interconnect with ONE 16 gauge neutral wire (as per the web site)
- TWO 18 gauge VH Audio Solid Copper + AirLok insulation signal wires (NEW)
- KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony RCA plugs (as per the web site)
So far this cable is performing better than my IC’s that have a Solid Silver Mundorf wire + Cotton sleeve + Absolute Harmony RCA’s
For me, If I can hear improvements easily, then an up[grade like this is worth it - and this was noticeable from the get go. I didn’t have to play multiple tracks to discern a minute change - it was clearly audible. What Grannyring refers to as "a wall of sound" and I can see why
On the plus side, the solid copper wire is much more affordable than the silver.
But, will a dual Solid Silver wire with AirLok insulation sound even better?
I’ll keep you posted :-)
BTW - "Thanks Gran" :-)
Regards - Steve
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Well - since we were having another day of bad weather and since I had found enough spare wire to try the full Helix "Double Barrel" as per @grannyring ’s formula, I figured what the heck and gave it a whirl
The cables I changed had a single strand of Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold for the signal with a single strand of 16 Gauge Mil-spec Silver plated stranded copper, as per the recipe on my web site. The cables were 27" long.
I completely de-constructed the mundorf cable and doubled up on the Mundorf Solid Silver/gold for the Signal and doubled up on the 16 gauge Silver plated Mil-spec as per grannyring’s modified version.
Verdict...
- well the full Double Barrel edged out the Double Signal cable that I tried yesterday.
- the fullness improved and the imaging was more spacious and accurate
- all tracks were more articulate.
- both cables seem to lessen the amount of compression that is a generally present in most recordings.
- the guitar work on Dire Straights tracks now seem to leap out of the speakers whilst maintaining a suitable balance with the rest of the instruments and vocals. This goes for most other well recorded rock tracks
- classical tracks seemed to now be performed in a larger venue thanks to the better imaging and I noticed more echoes and reverberations from the sides of the venue, which made the send of space more realistic
- all tracks seemed to have a little more "body" compared to the Double Signal
The improvement between these two cables over the Single Cable made the upgrade well worth while.
Since the neutral wire is the more reasonably priced piece of wire, it makes upgrading to the full Double Barrel version a no brainer.
I could not really tell the difference between the Mundorf Wire and the VH Audio Solid COPPER wires, both provide stunning fidelity, so I would recommend using the solid copper at this time
The "Double Barrel" really is the best version of the Helix Interconnect cable to date.
I know that Grannyring has himself tried several versions of the Double Barrel Helix, so I would like to thank him for his efforts in coming up with a winning formula, it is very much appreciated.
If you already have the single wire version, then upgrading to the Double Signal wire version is the easier of these two upgrades and you will achieve about 60% of the benefits obtained from a full Double Barrel rebuild.
But - If you are pursuing Nirvana, then you’ll need Go for the full Double Barrel upgrade !
- so perhaps relegate that single cable to a second system, or sell to a friend - and start from scratch,
- it is so much easier than de-constructing an existing cable :-)
Again - "Thanks again Gran" :-)
Regards Steve
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@mawe - Glad to hear you are also having success with the Helix design. Sounds like you have been busy :-)
My goal in sharing the helix design via my web site was to have other DIYer's run with it and try their own adaptions, which is exactly what you have done.
The information you have provided is valuable and I will certainly consider your findings when looking at a possible "next version"
Although I have not tried 2 x 24 gauge Helix IC, this is what I have tried...
- a few versions ago I used a single 24 gauge solid Silver wire in side a Teflon tube
- I then tried 20 gauge with teflon insulation and it sounded better.
- other DIYer's tried the 1mm (18 gauge) Mundorf Solid Silver/Gold wire in a cotton sleeve and it again improved the sound. So I then tried that
- Following that I tried the 18 gauge VH Audio copper and it was as good as the Mundorf Solid Silver.
- Then @grannyring tried the 2 x 18 gauge OCC copper from VH Audio and again the sound improved.
So that has been the more recent "evolution" of the current Helix IC.
It's been a real "team effort" that I could not possibly have accomplished alone.
But at this time, I am very happy with the IC's current design listed in this thread and right now I just need some time to just sit back and listen :-)
But I will keep your adaptions in mind for future versions :-)
Perhaps someone would like to try @mawe's adaptions?
- be sure post your findings here please.
Again - many thanks for sharing your adaptions - it's great that people are trying different things with the Helix design.
Regards - Steve
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@demetris - @grannyring has a picture on his system page at the bottom of the photos listed - see...... https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8787 I will be updating my web site in a couple of weeks with photos and construction notes on three Helix IC options, which will be.. - Grannyring.s "Double Double" design - a Two on One adaption - i.e. Two Signal wires with a Single Neutral wire - while keeping the original "Regular" one signal with one neutral design Currently I have one "Double Double" IC using Mundorf Solid silver for the Signal on my streamer and and an IC with a single coil but with a double VH Audio Solid Copper signal wire on my phono Stage, both of which I an enjoying immensely. Why didn’t I go "Double Double" for all components? - well as we all seem to be discovering - different wires and approaches can be a better match for different components. But going forward - I do find the VH Audio copper wire to be very compelling, since it competes nicely with the overall performance of the Mundorf Solid Silver + Gold wire - BUT - for 1/5th the cost.- and you gotta love that :-) VH Audio Solid copper with AirLok is definitely my new "Wire Du Jour" :-) Regards - Steve |
I have tried both Silver and Gold Sonarquest and found the Silver more detailed and dynamic in my system, which are traits I like to hear. But I agree that the gold is slightly warmer than the silver
I have not tried the Rhodium, so I have no comment on their sound
But, there is no wrong choice here because they are all very good, it's just the choice that suits individual ears :-)
Regards - Steve
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Question: has anyone tried the double barrel approach on a Helix XLR cable?
If yes - was it beneficial (i.e. worth doing) or did it degrade Sound Quality
Many Thanks |
Granted - Silver is the best conductor - theoretically...
- It could be related to how the outlet clamps onto the pins
- if the pins on one plug were flatter than the pins on the other plug it would make a different mechanical connection that could affect dynamics
- it could be how the wires are clamped into the plug.
Remember there are a few "mechanical interfaces" at play which can affect performance
I'll stick with the Silver plated, but I do not dispute Aniwolfe's observations under his conditions and setup.
Regards |
For some, those tabs look very fragile, but they actually allow for a much better joint than trying to solder a wire to a hefty neutral barrel like those on the Furutech RCA’s and they are so much easier connect a wire to than trying to get a wire down the center of the signal pin if re-attaching a previously used RCA
But they do allow you to apply the heat under the tab while holding the wire on top of the tab for a perfect solder joint. You can see the solder melt right into the wire & tab
You do need to secure that little plug though - I insert mine into a old RCA socket that is held in a vice - that leaves both hands free
But that’s just my opinion after having reused my Harmony RCA’s many times.
As for sound quality - I’m with @grannyring - they are the best sounding RCA plug I have ever used.
Regards - Steve
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I’m with @grannyring
But the other thing to consider is the type solder you use...
- I have recommended WBT 4% silver solder in the past
- but I now prefer eutectic solders because they seem to flow more easily, become solid very quickly and make a very robust joint using less solder
- CARDAS makes a eutectic solder, but I have not tried it - yet
The Furutech 111 plug does look very nice and easy to install for people that do not like soldering or for those who believe clamping is a better method of fastening
But for me - the Absolute Harmony RCA is the only plug on my cables
Regards - Steve
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@twoleftears - the Mil Spec wire used for the neutral is stranded and the strands will cross the signal wire at a less acute angle in one direction, as opposed to the opposite direction. So which way is clockwise vs. counter clockwise depends on your "perspective" If you are looking down the winding of a finished cable from the end, then the coil rotates in a CLOCKWISE direction as it winds away from you. vs.
If you are looking at how the wire is wound around the signal wire then it is wound in a COUNTER CLOCKWISE direction If you are using a double stranded solid signal conductor then twist the wires in a clockwise direction if you used a single solid wire for both signal and neutral, then likely the direction of the coil would not matter Here’s a link to some close-up pics - I use the term Counter Clockwise on this page for the correct direction http://www.image99.net/blog/files/b4d5249616a56bdabfd28b5580db6cec-79.html Regards - Steve |
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@aniwolfe - thanks for the link - I’ll tuck that one away for future reference.
Parts Connexion is one of those places that you have to at least visit, to see what deals they are currently promoting.
For Canadians like me, it’s often cheaper elsewhere because their shipping charges and taxes applied sometimes negate the effectiveness of the the deal
But delivery is faster.
The prices in the eBay links above were free delivery and taxes included - but it can take up to 4 weeks to deliver. The vendor Enjoyhifi is much faster than other vendors I have tried.
Cheers - Steve |
@rx8man - and let’s not forget @grannyring - who brought us the Schroeder "Double Shotgun" version :-) If you haven’t tried (what I refer to as) the Double-Double Interconnect, see my Web Site http://www.image99.net/blog/files/4127b5fe2694586e383104364360373b-74.html I cannot say this often enough - my sincere thanks go to everyone that has contributed in the development of these cables. It is a most excellent exchange of ideas, approaches and observations between many individuals, across many countries, on a large variety of components and systems. Without this cooperative effort we would not have such great DIY cables My Thanks - to everyone ! Regards - Steve |
@corelli - WRT Is this wire non-directional? If you mean... - will the wire sound different when connected in one direction as opposed to being connected in the opposite direction? - then I would have to say that I have never attempted to maintain wire directionality in the signal or the helix, i.e. during the build process But I did try connecting a pair of IC’s in the various L/R channel permutations and observed no difference. NOTE: I do use different colors of heat shrink at each end of the cables so I can maintain a specific direction once the cables are burned in. Perhaps the effects of wire directionality are far less apparent with the Helix Geometry, i.e. when compared to cables having more "convectional" geometries. Regards - Steve |
Bruno - just re-reading your post and was wondering which of the wires you mentioned do you intend to intend to use for the LIVE conductor, and which wire you intend to use for the neutral and ground wires?
Either the VH Audio wire or Duelund will be a good choice for the LIVE conductor..
For a 230v cable - if you are using the VH Audio wire for the LIVE I would recommend using a cotton sleeve over the LIVE conductor for added safety
I would NOT recommend either of these two wires for the neutral or ground conductors because they are not robust enough to maintain the helix coil effectively and the VH Audio wire will not withstand any prolonged handling activity.
Mil-spec is still my wire of choice for Neutral.
I would even use Mil-Spec for the ground because of it's superior ability to maintain the helix coil shape and it's tough Teflon insulation
Regards - Steve |
I’ll ask one of the European DIYer’s where he got his wire from
He may have a couple of options
Stay posted - Steve |
