Good info, so far. Keep 'em coming!
Thanks, Tom.
P.S.
If someone has an amp that fits the bill that they are trying to sell, feel free to drop me a line. |
Gnobber:
Good point about doubling down. I know those Thiels present a demanding load, and I want to make sure the amp is up to the challenge. Do you think the benefits from the McCormack to Classe had more to do with increased headroom and the monoblock design, or was it more of a "McCormack versus Classe" kind of thing? I had been considering McCormack as a contender.
A_Hayan:
I was waiting for someone to suggest Aragorn. It seems to be a logical match. The Bryston and CJ recommendations are also along the lines of what I had expected.
You people have me doing some research! Thanks, Tom. |
My local dealer, whom I enjoy working with, sells (among other things) Krell, Theta, and McCormack. I would love to have a Krell FPB300cx, but it looks like I am on more of a McCormack budget, especially if I buy new. Any thoughts on a DNA-225 for the CS3.6's, and a DNA-HT3 for the center and surrounds?
Tom. |
The only disadvantage to Theta, is that from what I recall, their price point is fairly close to Krell, so I'd probably be tempted to go Krell. Still, they definitely seem worth checking out. |
Actually, no. I had not considered Spectral, and I had forgotten that Progressive carried them. Which model Thiels do you have? The word that I am receiving is that the CS3.6's are some of the hardest Thiels to drive, and that in fact, they rank up there with some of the hardest speakers to drive. They spend a lot of time down in the 2 Ohm range, and being very flat across such a wide frequency spectrum, they can place a lot of demands upon an amp. Progressive's #1 recommendation for the CS3.6 so far has been Krell. Theta is close, they say, but for slightly more money, a Krell would work better. They do believe that McCormack would be a very large step in the right direction, though, and would bridge the gap cost-wise between Adcom and Krell.
Do you recall the price range of the Spectral gear? I know very little about them. Interestingly, the last time I was down there, I heard Thiel speakers as part of three separate systems. Two of them used Krell gear, and one used Rotel gear. I ended up buying a Rotel RSP-1066 because of how close it came to matching the Krell Showcase. Amp-wise, though, I'd put Rotel fairly close to the same league as Adcom, and since I am looking for an upgrade, here, I hadn't really thought about Rotel. Still, they may be worth listening to again.
Thanks for the feedback. I have been shopping at Progressive since my college days back in the late '80's, and I have come to really trust and rely upon them.
Later, Tom. |
Really?! I had thought of the HCA-2, but wouldn't have thought that it would have enough juice for the CS3.6's. I will try to check out that article.
Thanks, Tom. |
Classe and Levinson have definitely been added to my list. As for Spectral, yes, the folks at Progressive had good things to say about them, but because of having to use Spectral's preamp, and because I also use these speakers/amp(s) for home theatre, they didn't think it was as good of a match. Plus, after looking at photos and discussing my room, they agree with me that I have a "bass-sucking" room, which may require a fairly stout amp.
I am hoping to be able to audition my CS3.6's with amps from Krell, McCormack, and Theta (and my Adcoms, of course) down at Progressive. I'd love to hear Bryston, Classe and Levinson, as well, so I may see if any dealers in my area carry them.
Thanks again for all the feedback, Tom. |
Will do. It'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get back down there, though. |
In case anyone has two or more cents that they'd like to toss in, I am presently considering (to some extent, at least) amps from all of the following manufacturers: Krell, McCormack, Theta, Bryston, Classe, and Pass. I might add one or two more to the list, but quite frankly, I will have a hard time auditioning all of these, particularly Pass and Classe, as I don't have any dealers within a reasonable drive. I would very much like to audition an amp before I commit, but I have heard enough good things about Classe and Pass to consider them, so long as I have a return option.
Thanks, Tom. |
I have been digging a little deeper into information regarding my current amp candidates, and I discovered that the Theta Dreadnaught II (which can be a 2-10 channel amp) has an option which allows you to place it into 2-channel operation (regardless of how many modules you have) and to send all of its current to just the two channels. This seems like an incredibly smart solution to the whole "2-channel, critical listening" and simultaneous "home theater" system.
Any thoughts on how a Dreadnaught II in two channel mode (that would be 450w at 4 ohm) would drive my CS3.6's? This could be an interesting ticket.
Another attractive option are those Theta Enterprise monoblocks. Hubba hubba! Of course, I would still need a multiple channel Dreadnaught II or Intrepid to keep a consistent HT setup. And that price tag would not be cheap.
Thanks, Tom. |
Great response, Unsound! I very much appreciate your insight and assistance. While Pass and the Krell FPB series are both out of my (initial) price range new, I have seen deals on used amps from each that are within my realm of affordability. And ultimately, my goal is to build a system that I can be happy with for some time, so dealing with the Adcoms a little longer, and saving up some more cash, is preferable to playing the multiple upgrade game.
Tom. |
One additional concern that I do have is that these amps will be going into an entertainment center, and even though I have customized it with some fairly nice (and pretty darn quiet) fans from Atlantic (with temperature activated variable speed control), I probably want to avoid the very hottest amps. Any thoughts on which amps run the hottest (or coolest) between Krell, McCormack, Theta, Pass, Classe' or Bryston? Those are probably my front runners.
Thanks again! You folks have been very helpful.
Tom. |
"FYI, digital amps are very efficient and generate little or no heat. I'm thinking of the Rowland (no heat sinks even) and probably the Acoustic Arts, Spectron, and Bel Canto amps."
How will these drive the difficult, low impedance, CS3.6's? I haven't heard much about any of these brands, although I have some experience with digital amps in the live/pro audio field.
Tom. |
I have listed some of the options that I am considering in my other thread:
"2-channel + 3-channel amps, versus 5-channel amp"
Any additional feedback from you folks is always appreciated!
Thanks, Tom. |
Thanks for the nod to Parasound. In truth, I had been looking the Halo JC 1 monoblocks, as well. There have been some stunning reviews of these amps, but then again I have heard from several "real world" people that they are not up to the hype. That HCA-3500 certainly looks like it would have the brawn to handle my Thiels. How did the HCA-3500 and the 3.6's pair sonically? What are the sonic characteristics of the HCA-3500?
Thanks, Tom. |
Thank you for the detailed response, Ed! I do appreciate your feedback. The HCA-3500 does appear to offer a lot for the money. Now, I just need to find one to audition. I have read elsewhere that the JC 1's are based to a certain extent on the HCA-3500 design, but with noticeable improvements. But reviews of the JC 1 are all over the map. Some claim it is the holy grail, and others call it woefully overrated. Again, without auditioning, I will never know for myself. I may have to keep my eyes out for an ML-3, too, from what you say.
I am hoping to audition a couple of amps on Thursday, including Theta Enterpises and McCormack DNA-225. Sure, that's a big price discrepency, but I am hoping to get a feel for the Theta sound and the McCormack sound. I may be able to hear a Classe CA-301, too.
Tom. |
I may be getting out of my "affordable" category, but it looks like I may get a chance to audition some amps from Sim Audio (but not the W-5, it looks like) and perhaps an EDGE NL-10, too. I've heard nothing but good things about EDGE, so I will be looking forward to hearing the NL-10 with my Thiels.
Tom. |
Unfortunately, the closest Rowland amps that I can find are in Cincinnati. About 3.5-4 hours one way. Still, it might be in the cards. Certainly, I have heard good things about them. The dealer that has the NL-10, though, dropped Rowland in favor of EDGE.
Tom. |
Well, I did get the chance to audition my 3.6's with a couple of amps yesterday. My first thoughts were amazement at just how well the CS3.6's can sound! :^) In addition to listening to one of my GFA-555II's, I auditioned McCormack DNA-225, Theta Enterprise monoblocks, Theta Intrepid, and EDGE NL-10. The DNA-225 quickly dropped out of the running. It's tonal balance was fine, and its low end control was very good, but it seemed to fall on its face in the imaging and depth/width of soundstage. In truth, the 555II noticeably exceeded the DNA-225 in all of these regards (which shocked me), although the Adcom was otherwise clearly outclassed by the McCormack. The Theta Enterprises sounded absolutely marvelous. Great tonal balance, and a level of detail, imaging and soundstage that blew me away, with controlled, natural low end, and a bit of a high end sheen. Very musical for a solid state amp. The Enterprises really showed me what the Thiels could do. Ideally, I wanted to hear a Dreadnaught II with the 3.6's, but all they had was an Intrepid. Talk about an eye-opener! That 5-channel, 100 watt amp has no right to sound as good as it does with those 3.6's! Especially considering the price. It most definitely captures the "Theta sound", and while it lacked the level of detail, separation, and depth of soundstage that the Enterprises offer, its tonal balance, width of soundstage, and low end performance were remarkably similar to the much costlier monoblocks.
At a different location, I had an opportunity to audition the EDGE NL-10. This is a very fast, neutral amp. It pushed the 3.6's with ease, and really brought out the best of their dynamic ability. Given that I was in very different rooms, with vastly different associated gear, it was difficult to really compare the NL-10 to the Enterprises, but I can definitely say that they are in the same league. Both made my Thiels do things that I had never heard before. If I had to try to articulate a comparison, and considering all of the other variables, I'd say that the NL-10 was noticeably faster, and had extreme dynamic control, and was quite possibly more neutral, but the Enterprises were more sweet and musical, and had perhaps a bit more low end fullness.
While I haven't completely ruled out EDGE, I am thinking of using the Intrepid for my center and surrounds, and either getting a 2-channel Dreadaught II or the Enterprises for my 3.6's. Yes, going the Enterprise route pretty much blows my "affordable" thing, but they really did make those Thiels sing.
Tom. |
BTW, in case anyone is following this anymore, I ended up with a pair of Enterprises in addition to the Intrepid. All I can say is, "Wow!" I did get a chance to audition the Edge NL-10 in my home, and it doesn't come close to matching the open, spacious feel of the Enterprises, nor does it sound as musical. It is a bit analytical by comparison. I'd say the NL-10 is indeed slightly faster, but the difference here was nowhere near as big as the advantage to the Thetas in soundstage and imaging.
Now, to upgrade pre/pro and source components!
Thanks again to all who helped me with this decision making process. You folks really were very helpful.
Tom. |
Yes, indeed, my budget theory got shot through the roof! ;^) What did it for me was auditioning amps. I had my old Adcom GFA-555II with me for a reference, and what I found was that stepping up to a $2,000-3,000 amp had some benefits, but still, there were some things that the old Adcom did better than these amps. Once I heard the Enterprises, though, the difference was shocking. Not to name names, but compared to another manufacturer's $3,000.00 amp, they beat it in every category, and significantly blew it's doors off in imaging and soundstage (which are important to me). Then, I did a head to head, in my home comparison versus a modded Edge NL-10 (retail of over $12,000), and the Enterprises also beat them handily (to my ears, at least).
I think that once I heard just how good my 3.6's can sound with excellent amplification, I didn't want to go back to anything else. That, and an unexpected inflow of cash helped out. :^)
FWIW, my favorite amp at close to the $2,000 mark was actually the Theta Intrepid driving just the Thiels. That "little" Intrepid just amazes me. It doesn't have the depth of soundstage, or the detail of the Enterprises, but it is very balanced, quite capable in the lows, and has very good width of soundstage.
Tom. |
If I could edit the header on this thread I would. Perhaps I should call it something like:
"Thiel CS3.6's, and the Uberamps that Drive Them" or
"How my Thiels sucked my wallet dry"
Really, though, it is a testament to the great value of these speakers that they are able to show just what really good amps are able to do. The upside of all of this is that I find myself listening to (and enjoying) music more and more since picking up the Thiels (and the gear that followed). And ultimately, that is what it's all about.
Tom. |
No, I was rather disappointed that I was not able to compare the Enterprises to an FPB series Krell. I have heard that if you want incredibly strong bass, then nothing pushes Thiel speakers like Krell amps. However, I was more concerned about accurate bass, which is an area where the Thetas excel. The Thetas are also supposedly a bit sweeter on the high end (and I can attest to the fact that they are very musical on the highs - more so than the Edge, for sure). Still, it would have been a great comparison to make.
Tom. |
