Sibilance you won't find it with every recording.
Play some of the recordings I recommended,also if you remove the driver and look at the caps in your X over,you'll see that they are oblong not round and this means a higher ESR possibly masking/hiding some of the spike.
A capacitor costing under a buck vs. $25.00+ will certainly be more revealing.
I will link the spikes.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=240-718&FTR=gold%20spikes%20dss4-g
I would like to see what you did with the Dynamat.
got pictures up anywhere? |
I have owned my Lores for about 4 months now.
I will start by saying they are a great speaker for the money.
The thing they do best is well balanced bass and male vocals.
I no longer need my Epos sub woofer($800.00) built for 2 channel down to 20hz.because the Lore's will reach down into the 20hz. range at 10 watts using a tone sweep cd.just enough to fill in the lower octaves in music.Don't expect menny speakers to do this I'm not claiming a pure 20 hz. signal will shake your house but it is there enough to give Bass 31hz. and up a nice rich added layer of bass not found in most speakers there size and there is no big 60hz. spike like cheap ported subs not great for music.
I have made some major changes to my Lores as I felt there was a huge spike in the upper mid range and I am still working on this with Eric being very supportive all the way.
I have owned alot of speakers and after my son was born I had to get rid of my Sound Labs as having 800 volt electrostatics around a rug rat just won't do, so I was using a pair of recaped older Missions in the mean time.
A freind who owns Zu Omens recommended trying a pair of Lores so in late October I got them.
After 40 to 50 hours of break in a small issue occurred over a weekend,nothing big enough to go into, but I decided to recap the crossover with upgrade caps of the same value UF.
And while I was at it I used upgraded internal cable.
After that the top end did open up and it even sounded more analog,smoother but the bump in the upper mid range was still there only smoother.
The biggest issue I have had is in upper octaves of guitars,harmonicas,violins and female vocals being to sibilant my guess is something is peaked from 4khz. to 8khz.
causing to much bloat there.
Eric has been very helpful with this.
At the advice of a friend well educated in these things He recommended a small mod to tame this node,and it has gotten better reducing the peak from 5.5khz. to 10hz. by 2 db. and solving the problem for menny recordings but Gray Slick is still sibilant in White Rabbit and Sharl Crow's Soak up the Sun also Jennifer Warrens Famous Blue Rain Coat.
I am still working with Eric on this and we will get it resolved but I think the problem is not really in the crossover but the tweeters response I pulled up the tweeter specs from Madisound to find the tweeter rises like a flight of stairs, great above 15hz. where most of us have reduced hearing but a real bad thing where femail vocals are as it makes them sound overly ssssispy.
It's hard to say if my changing caps made it worse or just removed the vial making it more noticeable.
More later.
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Cables make very small changes,This change needs to happen at the capacitors.I ordered Clarity Cap ESA as with their SA caps they are ruler flat and don't favor upper mids and highs. |
The replacement caps where the Obbligato gold and Clarity Cap ESA and the shunting cap a Clarity Cap SA.
The internal wire I used is Audison 14 awg. Silver and Sonus for the long run from the binding posts to the X over.
I chose this wire because it is self dampening and non micro-phonic important inside a speaker cabinet.
I also will be upgrading to all mills 12 watt resisters shortly.
http://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/TW025A28.pdf
Looking at the tweeter response graph this tweeter goes from 99.2db. at 3,155khz. to 104.7khz. 14,090 then drops some as it gets to 20,000. Leaving a very large peek at from 5,000 to 8,000 where sibilance occurs in femail vocals and glare slaps you in the face from alot of instruments.
At first it seems like there is some extra detail but it doesn't take log before it starts to bother you.
I believe the tweeter is 90 degrees out of phase so from where the 10 uf cap and resister meet,I soldered a 50 ohm resister to the positive marked wire on the tweeter and this will shunt to ground stopping any oscillation as well.
End result a 2 db. drop from 5.5khz. to 10 khz.
I am going to try a Mills 12 watt 56 ohm and see the results,when my parts come in.
Aside from the runaway tweeter that will soon be tamed down where it needs it, these are the best speakers I have heard in menny ways. They far exceed there price of $999.00+ shipping.
BTW I also went with the gold Dayton Audio adjustable speaker spikes DSS4-G They alow you to slightly tilt your speakers back and they look great with the white cabinets and gold tweeter!
Eric said the mod is unorthodox but it works and IMO the Audax tweeter is unique and a little unorthodox as it's response is anything but flat!
The speakers are still my favorites but my opinion is they need hand tuning to bring out the most they can be. |
That forward guitar sound is just what I'm talking about,try playing White Rabbit or Soak up the Sun and you will see what I mean.
Not all female vocals will have this problem but recordings like Famous Blue Rain coat will point it out.
A good read here. http://www.audiolofftreport.com/speakersound.html
That upper mid range glare comes right at you.
As for sound treatments the room is carpeted no hard wood floors,acoustic ceiling and 8X16 Sq.ft. sound treatments.
Amp Manley Labs Stingray in Triode input tubes Mullards,output TAD EL84 STR interconnects White zombie audio La Cacanya (silver Teflon) Speaker cables (7 Awg silver Teflon).
Source a very modified 500gig. first gen. Apple T.V. linked by an all glass Tolsink cable to a little dot Dac 1.Apple loss-less files.
I also tested using my Music hall level 1 mod.CD25.2
To find the same thing.
I do like the idea of Dymamating the inside only where the fiberglass currently is but careful not to over dampen as you could deaden to much.
I came from a first class vinyl rig to loss less file as a way of making room for a new son.
So I know what artifacts can come from both analog and digital but this node lives with in the tweeter i'm pretty sure,having said that not every production run of any component is exactly as the one modeled and graphed and that's why guys like Henry Kloss believed in hand tuning by ear as the final finish,but at $999.00 a pair that's asking a bit much. They are not $7,000 dollar speakers.
Eric, dose a remarkable job in coming very close to the best at a give away price and there is a need for his place in the market.
Being a father now I can't go run out and spend thousands on my hobbies but I can get the musical speaker I have ever heard and spend a little time taming a little peak to make them just how I want them to sound.
I have always hated 99th row performance of todays high end audio (live music dose't sound like that.The Lore sounds like your 5 or 6 tables away from a live band in an intimate night club and that is just what rocks my boat.
When I get them sorted out I'll wright more. |
By the way Dynamat and fiberglass serves two different purposes.
The fiber glass absorbs and defuses the rear wave coming off the back of the driver cone and keeps the driver from ringing from directly reflected out of phase sound waves.
The dynamat simply deadens any resonance from the cabinet it's self and reduces cabinet ring or harmonics from the cabinets resonate frequency.
To much dampening can have negative effects on a ported cabinet and I think Eric has found a sweet spot as far as dampening and porting.
The Bass seems layered and tight,not very far off from a sealed cabinet IMO so I really don't think I would mess with that because if the speakers go dead Dynamat is near impossible to compleatly remove. |
One of the things Eric recommended seriously helped the problem.The speakers where tipped back 10mm raised at the front spikes,leveling them removed a load of glare and reduced some of the sibilance !
He also gave me some other ideas, more later.
Eric's customer service is really impeccable,not to mention e is just so dammed likable.
I have been into audio for years and it's been a very long time since I have met someone with his passion for all tings musical. |
Read a little up stream,I have used the same configuration with several pairs of speakers and had no sibilance.
I was fortunate a few years ago to be able to compare some of the most expensive cables of the time and even Audio Note Sogon made only a subtle difference at best and the gear used was worth more than my house several times over.
It is funny that using lab grade test equipment has never measured a difference in the frequency response from one interconnect or another as long as they are constructed correctly.And if you can show me different i'm open but interconnects and power cords are not magic wires.
Although I have all silver in teflon speaker cables,inter connects and PS audio 8 and 10 Awg. power cords.
Capacitors do however make a measurable difference up to a couple of DB. in some frequencys. I will not go into an endless cable debate.Sibilance lives in the 8khz. range and if the big new cap I put in peeks in the upper mids where the tweeter peeks to 101.5 db. output around 8khz. I very well could be over 103db! at a very sensitive frequency.
I am pretty sure of the problem and I'm just awaiting parts.
Did you look at the graph of the tweeter response?
If no one else has sharp SSS and TTT it would almost be a act of God looking at the steep climb of the tweeter it's self.The caps used nearly need to have a recessed upper mid range just to control the top end of the female voice.
Eric did a great job of balancing this tight rope but upgrading caps can upset the apple cart.
I would leave the Lores alone unless you are willing to stay in it for the long run.There is more detail to be found in the top end (sizzle) but the proper balance is critical and may not be cheap.I am willing to roll as menny caps as it takes.
I am all ready upgrading resistors,Mills and possibly Mundorf,Audison internal cable ect...
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One of the problems was due to my positioning,I tipped them back,Eric said that would spike the tweeter by as much as 3 db. After leveling them it helped alot.
The other issue is with a bright pair of caps soon to be swapped. I am not blaming anyone for the sibilance and I'm surprised no one else has made a capacitor upgrade and chased these issues already. My advise would be to use very neutral caps Clarity cap,Ansar,Daton,Solon as any peak in the upper mids creates a problem. |
Wow! since leveling them and letting them run in some more from sun up to sun down over the weekend and for 2 hours I ran the volume at 12:00! somewhere around 10 watts!
Suddenly the high end went flat so I removed the resistor I added to the tweeter to drop the spike by 2 db. and still no glare,seems the new caps smoothed out and the sibilance just vanished as fast as it came.They got another 38 hours just since last week end of break in time.So now I have more caps coming,they can just sit,no more cap rolling!
All I am going to do now is go in and remove the Xovers and clean everything up,replace the resistors with Mills non inductance and there done!
In the end it will all be worth the trouble but one piece of advice is be very careful to select neutral capacitors and give them some time to smooth out. Mine took close to 90 hours.
Funny thing is when I first put them in no sibilance but they went through a 50 hour or so stage where you couldn't stand them,I seriously hope this is it and they are done with no more surprises! This is the most radical burn in I have ever encountered,although I did have a similar issue with clarity cap SA a few years back as they lost the top end for a while and suddenly it emerged after a couple weeks of use. So I guess I shouldn't be to shocked. |
Rocky,
If your Lores are Bone stock and positioned level with your floor,your probably experiencing something different.
The Lores are not a laid back music from the lobby or parking lot presentation,they make me feel as if I am 6 to 8 cocktail tables away from a live Blues band in an intimate night club.
They are a forward sounding speaker.End of story.
But not forward in an uncomfortable way with my amp ect...
If the top end is what bothers you, there is a mod to tame it.And you can tailor it to your ears.
If your speakers have less than 200 hours I'd recommend giving them more time to break in.And Eric is a wealth of knowledge so keep him informed as you go.
|
I have spent more on cables over the last ten years than I am ever willing to cop too.
Let's just say I wish I had all that money back.
The cables I have now are not a cheap date but not $3,300 for a meter ether.But sounded 99.9% like them.In fact it was nearly impossible with most recordings to tell the two apart A B testing on an Audio Note U.K.single ended rig.
So I'm not eager to buy something I will more than likely
chuck in one of my pile o audio plastic bins.
No disrespect,I just don't feel the need to resurface an all ready smooth road.I can say I like solid core Silver or copper over stranded anything with only one exception.
I am using the same cables as Stevie Nicks and Pat Boon.
There doing just fine with the Lores.
|
Morganc,
Keep in mind it is never a good Idea to use all the same manufacture capacitors in the same crossover.A common mistake.
More over it becomes a bigger problem yet when you run the same capacitors in parallel or in series as each cap make and modle has it's own sonic signature. Some caps are very detailed and etched some caps are just plain smooth,some may lack bass or be slightly rolled off at the top.Put any two of the same together and everything both good and bad can be exaggerated.The capacetor list for the Lores are Clarity Cap ESA, Obbligato Gold and Ansar SPA with silver leads.
All the caps I used are very large.You change out resisters just like caps I used Mills 12 watt but Mundorfs are great too if the values match.I also used Audison 14 AWG.Silver 214 and Sonus 214 from Italy for internal wire.
I hope this helps you,but if you are not sure what you are doing buy the parts you want and let Eric build your cross over using them as the man is good at laying things out nicely and his solder joints are well flowed and twisted together like hell man!
It is easier to copy his crossover on a new larger board from scratch than taking his apart in one piece and rebuilding it.And give break in some time,count the hours on a kitchen timer or stop watch. Best of luck!
|
Which cables am I using?
Interconnects?
http://www.whitezombieaudio.com/lacacanyacables.html
The very cables in the picture are one of my several pairs. |
When you say how much you where missing,Do tell your discovery's.
Can you give specifics related to songs,for example when I upgraded the Lores symbols when being struck gave a deeper pitch with more shimmer and an extended ring in Bjork's Debut album."Come to me" is the best example but it was very noticeable through out the whole album.
This song led me to put the stock caps back in one speaker foe a couple of days for a head to head comparison.
So my findings are verified not on some distant memory but in real time.That is just one example of the out come of the total upgrade there are a few. |
I wanted to see the difference the upgrade caps made.
So I reinstalled the stock tweeter caps in one speaker for the day.
I was able to do a direct A/B comparison.
The thing I noticed is the factory caps upper end seems to roll off by comparison.The caps themselves lack some of the finer details and the very top end seems less distinguishable and veiled.
The level of detail is still very very good but not as much sparkle and sizzle as with the upgrade caps.
The painful part of the upgrade is in the burn in,I have realized the Lores are so sensitive and unforgiving of a bright or green cap that what is a little annoying in a average sensitivity speaker is magnified several times over.
When the new caps settled down all is good and I hope to be buttoning everything up today.But if you do a cap change in the Lore use a timer and give them 200 to 400 hours to smooth out before panicking.And don't pick caps that have a reputation for being bright of overly etched.If you want an upgrade that is pretty safe I would try Daton,Solon but my premium choice would be Ansar out of the U.K. inexpensive very smooth and neutral,there 600v models are priced like Solon,there 400v with 99.99% silver leads are the SPA audiophile version and they are under $6.00 per cap. And they use tin not zinc to attach the leads to the foil.
Thay are a premium capacitor at a give away price and some one is selling them here in the U.S. on Ebay now.
In changing caps in the Lore be patient.
These speakers will show even the smallest change,both good and bad.
|
Well, I wrapped things up today on the Lores.
On the rear wall where there was once fiberglass I used a product from DynaXorb a product of Dynamat. It claims to break up the rear reflection using technology from the stealth program and after looking at it and hearing the results I believe them.There is far clearer bass in Raising Sand (Sister Rosetta goes before us)
I used all mills resisters and they have brought far better detail to the mid-range, wind and string instruments have far more life and vibrato.
I mounted the whole X over on dampening board.
Everything is fantastic there is only one thing I am going to try.
Wool felt tweeter dampening rings.
I AM SO HAPPY with the Lores.
If Ferrari made speakers I'm sure they would sound like Lores! |
I installed the wool tweeter deffractors today.
They did make a small difference,they seem to take the edge off and add a little air and texture/detail to the top end.
Well worth the $4.00 for the pair from Madisound.
I'm pretty much done now.
These speakers are the best I have ever owned.
I have been thinking about Pendragons but I do live in a condo and the Lores shake the walls as it is even at a watt or two.
I still may though... |
How do you think Pendragons would do in a 16X12 room?
I am having a hard time contemplating my self looking into 6 ring radiator tweeters.
The idea of it seems made for a larger space. |
Floosh, In my opinion the drivers and basic design of the Lores are very capable of the highest resolution as well as getting loud and sounding live.I often listen to mine late after my wife and son are sleeping.If your handy with a soldering iron the Lores have far more to offer if not send Eric the parts you want installed after placing your order.
You will not find a speaker that responds to even the most subtle changes more so than the Lore.
The Lores can be detailed and dynamic yet smooth as silk, and even stock as there price you will most likely be pretty happy.
The lores however will respond very noticeably to even small upgrades so future money spent is never a waste.
At this moment I am looking at Cardas binding posts. http://www.soniccraft.com/products/connections/bindingpost/cardas_ccgg.htm
I believe the Lores will like the 24k gold over solid copper
The posts on the Lores are very nice and are far better than I would ever expected for speakers at a grand.
But once more every upgrade I have made, The Lores have responded to it.
A good friend of mine came over to hear the Lores yesterday.
He is into stuff in the latest reviews of stereophile magazine for example his most current system is Audion golden dream monos,a Conductor Audio Valve pre and Zingalli speakers. He also has the biggest upgraded Walcotts and Sound Lab panels to mention just two of his setups.
When he came over and listened he was so impressed by the Lores it was the constant topic for more than a couple of hours as song after song was requested.We finally got to go for Mexican food as I was starving and when we got back the requests soon resumed.This was for me the ultimate review as he has been into the high end since the 60's and has never been far out of the loop.
One thing that was brought up is when the recording is forward presented the Lores are forward and when the recording is 10 rows back so are the Lores.I had not noticed this for my self.he listened at low volume, moderately high volume on axis off axis ect..
I was surprised at his interest in them to be honest because his stuff is so much more up the ladder economicly speaking.
His final comment was the only thing missing on these speakers is a flashy gold bage with a $20,000+ brand name! |
I'd like to hear the P'dagons.
I gave some serious thought to how they might be balanced tonally speaking.
My guess is the line array of tweeters are of a slightly lower efficiency than the drivers the sum total of there output combined makes for the 98db. output over a larger radiating area much like my sound labs that offered 300 inches of tweeter per panel. Ring radiators in my experience Vifa's to be exact seem to be beammy but 2 X 3 would change the field of sonic radiation offering a far wider dispersion = Brilliant! a mid bass driver both over and under places the tweeter array in the center much like a extra large Tannoy dual concentric driver.I can only imagine with so much cabinet volume in a rear port they must offer layers of very extended bass.
A careful selection of resisters and capacitors in the crossover and it would be like being in the 1970's Memorex ad.
I would love to hear a pair...
Thanks, 4 your observations my mind is racing,but I am still breaking in the Lores and possibly getting them hand pinstriped for a 50's look.
If I get P Dragons it will not be for awhile.
I am really thinking hard though as a year passes fast. |
I'd like to hear the P'dagons.
I gave some serious thought to how they might be balanced tonally speaking.
My guess is the line array of tweeters are of a slightly lower efficiency than the drivers the sum total of there output combined makes for the 98db. output over a larger radiating area much like my sound labs that offered 300 inches of tweeter per panel. Ring radiators in my experience Vifa's to be exact seem to be beammy but 2 X 3 would change the field of sonic radiation offering a far wider dispersion = Brilliant! a mid bass driver both over and under places the tweeter array in the center much like a extra large Tannoy dual concentric driver.I can only imagine with so much cabinet volume in a rear port they must offer layers of very extended bass.
A careful selection of resisters and capacitors in the crossover and it would like being in the 1970's Memorex ad.
I would love to hear a pair... |
If you don't need alot of bass?
The Lores do bass pretty well in my condo.
Just ask the neighbors!!! |
Morganic and Sionlim you live 2 hours from me in Roseville just out from Sac.
I would have thought most of you where on the East coast. |
Your DAC choice will have a far bigger impact than any pair of cables.I would look at the Little Dot DAC from China in your price range.Why? because of the huge tiroidal transformer and Wolfson chip not to mention the way Sword Yang carefully implemented it all in his design.I chose the LD1 over the Cambridge Dac Magic because the little dot simply had a far better sense of scale and dynamics the little wall wart could not deliver in the DAC Majic another nice DAC in it's own right.
The Lores are perfectly balanced but can be taken to another level of detail.So there is no problem with highs and lows but the level of information that makes it through them.
If you want to get to that level you will have to do some soldering or have it done,or you could just be happy with what you have.Having said all that get your source and amp right then look to sorting out where you want to go with the Lores.Time is your friend,there is no hurry,just research before you buy.Best of luck! |
If you guy's head a little further north shoot me an email and stop in for an audition and a beer. |
Morganic I don't know how to find your email address on this forum mine is [email protected] |
The Lores are so well balanced I really can't see someone going very wrong.And size wize they don't over whelm.
I disagree on this with Eric spend the extra bucks and get the real deal! You won't be sorry you did. I would never give up the rich bass extension of the Lores for a very slightly smaller speaker. |
Cardas binding posts on the Lore.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=301858#post301858 |
Well, after a week of album rolling with the new binding posts
I can make a final comment on the Lores ability to preform with upgrades as time and money fits.
By far my advise is to leave the inductors as they are 18 awg. and the DC resistance is part of Erics formula for great bass extension.It is not easy to remove the cross over so if possible replace the caps,resistors and internal wire at the same time.I have been in these speakers a lot rolling caps and upgraded everything but the inductors. I would save the posts for last but they do make a difference so don't count them out.
What is the end result after so much time and soldering.
A far more detailed and smoother Lore with a fuller,richer sound that I can describe as both Dynamic and Lush.
The Lores respond very well to being upgraded, and go well beyond another level of music reproduction.
Some of the most revered brands offer upgrades for example Audio Note UK has levels of upgrades so it doesn't mean you bought bad speakers just because they can be improved on!
Whats nice is that the Design and driver selection by Eric is so good it can be taken to another level at a reasonable cost.Some speakers just don't respond much no matter how much time and money you put into them, the Lores respond to every upgrade.So Happy Soldering guy's! Build your own Hot Rod Lore and Enjoy the results!
Please share your upgrades with us,get it on guys! |
You will like them,but if you do not have good soldering skills and the ability to draw a diagram before you disassemble, so you can reassemble with the new upgrade parts. Then get someone who dose to help you and do it all at the same time.Remember ("DO NO HARM").
You should start learning to solder on something you get at a yard sale or charity shop not a $1.000.00 pair of brand new speakers.My first soldering job was in 1974 making my first crystal radio set.A great project for a first timer.
Suggestions.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=374-100
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=390-545
These 2 items will take you along way in your new hobby.
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Even if someone else builds your crossover,it is soldered to the speaker terminals.Practice soldering and find a mentor(maybe a local HAM amateur radio operator) to guide you.If you are going to live in the world of HiFi learn to solder and use a multi meter to check resistance,voltage and UF/PF.and the basic symbols so you can read or draw a schematic.
Any 4th or 5th grade kid can learn these basics and it will save you a lot of time and money through out your life.
There are loads of books and youtube videos to guide you on your way after 3 months you should be ready to tackle the Lore cross over if your serious about learning these basic skills. Go to a HAM swap and look for an older retired guy and just tell him you need help,most of these guys love to help teach someone who wants to learn.Sadly alot of these guys will pass away never getting to teach what took them years to learn,a real loss to everyone.Heat the work not the solder and keep the tip clean! Flux is your friend!
Now get to it! |
Im breaking in a new Jolida FX tube DAC I searched through my old stock of 12AX7's and rolled some tubes at this point it seems to like the early 90's Ei's.
It is sonicly very similar to the Little Dot DAC 1 and DAC Majic just smoother.
I'm sure it will get even better because both the DAC and tubes are in there 2nd hour.
And the Clarity Cap ESA's take 200 hours to break in alone.
I'm done with system building. It's really far better sounding than it has any right to be at this point. |
It is even more clear to me then ever that the Lores can become as revealing as any high end speaker.
After listening to different DAC's both at home and in a Boutique audio store on speakers with much higher price tags,I am even more impressed with the lores than I have ever been before.With so little spent on upgrades these speakers are just to dammed good to be true!
They reached a level that simply is analog as any live performance with the new Jolida FX tube DAC, 0 grain just smooth as silk pajamas and no detail left obscured.
Seriously,what more could you want from any speaker at any price?Sweet highs,a smooth mid range and clean tight deep bass that you can really feel even at very low wattage.
If your on the fence about buying a pair of these speakers,Please allow me to push you over as your not going to do any better than the Lores at any where near the price.
If I haven't said it before "Thank You Eric" |
The stock tubes sound great they are reissue Tung Sols.
It also likes EI's and 1950 RCA black plates. NOS tube prices have gone insane in the last couple years so stay with reissues if you don't happen to have some vintage tubes from years back laying around. |
Scuttlflux, Your talking apples and oranges.
Both your maggies and Martin Logans are Electrostatic plainers
a very different sounding animal compaired from the acoustic suspension driver world.
And you left out the very best example of Electrostatics of all,the Sound lab Majestic 945's these are so real sounding it will simply blow your mind in a largish room 6 ft. from a treated rear wall.I heard a pair driven with big Manley Labs monos on a cork floor.I have owned Sound labs smaller panels and heard other models in the PX series as well as the older Aroras and Dynastats and can promise you they are far better at producing a huge holographic sound stage than any other pannel. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/majestic.htm
Here is some serious monos to pair with them also the big Walcots are good.
http://www.manley.com/neo500.php
I used a 355 watt per channel amp as the impedance is what kills you when it swings 300ohms on a full range monster with over 600 inches of tweeter and drops to under 20hz!
Now,having taken the extreme path via electrostatics lets get to reality for most of us,I sold that kit when my son was born.I didn't need 800to 900 volts running under a membrain thinner than cellophane on a cigarette pack, lethal with poke of a finger or toy!
I have not heard the lore S but own the Lore and it has the dynamics,speed and punch that you may not get in the Lore S or Kats. Speed and punch is one of the characteristics people love in electrostatics,the other is detail and the Lore is capable of that too but you will have to send Eric better internal wire,better caps,resisters and binding posts to make the Lore as detailed as the panels we just discussed.but it can be done at around the price of the lore S or a little more.Unless your happy to do it your self,I did.And I would not trade my lores to have my panels back and I drive them at just a couple watts 90% of the time.10 watts per channel is plenty loud in a 20X16 treated room.
If you want stock and the only choice was the LoreS and Katz
I think you would do better with the larger cabinet of the Lore S. but I have not heard either one of those and I don't really know for sure what it is you are sonicly seeking. |
The Lores fresh off the boat and right out of the box are dynamic,warm and offer reasonable sound stage but lack refinement through no fault in there drivers, cabinet or design.They are limited only by price point.
Spend a little more money on them internally and the results with good source material go's from good to jaw dropping and drooling on your self.My guess is the Lore S most likely uses better capacitors and maybe resisters.
If your looking for electrostatic imaging it is simply not possible to beat Sound Lab 945's with 2X 3125 square inches of radiating surface.No 10 inch driver and 1 inch tweeter can radiate at a combined 11 inch driver surface the kind of imaging possible from a massive high voltage panel.
I would love to have a Lore S owner come over and hear my Lores and give me there opinion.
But being none of us has heard any of all the candidates auditioned in the same room on the same equipment it is all subjective any way REALLY... |
Floosh, How would rolling different amps change the abilitys or voicing of the speakers.An amplifier at it's best game just sends a louder signal identical match from the source with out any additional information.
If the source is great, or it sucks the amp should only send it along a some what louder.After that the voicing and limits of the speakers will affect the sonic end of the chain.
This is why I roll with laughter when people try to make up for a major deficiency by changing interconnects,speaker cables and even tubes to some degree.You can't seriously make more than a 1% difference with with any cable unless one is defective,even tubes make a very subtle difference.
The best way to address the problem is to isolate the problem componate and either fix it,up grade it or replace it. But you can't mask it.
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Tubes do make a noticeable difference,and even the difference between UL and triode can be very different and we could go into an amp being anolitical or even very warm.
And once more I was painting with to broad a brush to make a finer point.So thanks for calling me on it.
My point was simply this,to meany times I have seen people attack a major problem by making changes to everything but the problem.
for example.
1.A guy gets a very forward and bright pair of horn speakers and changes interconnects,speaker cables and then moves all the furniture in his house then covers the place with room treatments, then finality after a year of changing everything else decides the problem is actually the speakers.
Always start with the most likely link in the chain for example if you never had the problem before,what was the last thing you added or changed?
Sound simple? for some it is not,they want the new componate to work so badly they will exhaust every possible avenue.
When all else fails, reason comes on like a bad hang over and they admit they chose crap.And all the cables and clip on devices won't change that!
I'm not saying amps, tubes ect.. won't make a difference,it just seems so meany people are lead to spending money on very expensive interconnects and other magic beans instead of careful shopping and common sense. And there are so meany snake oil selling crooks,that mislead and down right burn people out of a lot of money for worthless crap in a shinny wrapper.
"There's a sucker born every minute,you just happened along"
Tom Waits quoting P.T.Barnum
That statement is alive and well in audio today,so forgive me if I tend to become a little vocal from time to time but I hate seeing people given bad advice,even if it is the popular opinion of the day.
And trust me when I say,I have seen manufacturers of cables and other stuff mislead people who are still novice and trying to learn or worse people who should know better but desperate to solve a major problem cheaply. |
Floosh, I recommended the Little Dot because of it's price point the Jolida was a bit more expensive.
You do have a point,but your cable tweek was a very small reason for my rant.I have just been overwhelmed lately by
some of the ridicules claims made by guys halking very over priced wire and other seemingly magic fixes!
My point has been made so lighten up I shall!
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I haven't found the need for a Zobel network,even at 18 to 20 watts per channel the impedance curve seems pretty stable to me.
Possibly due to the non inductance resisters,internal cabling and upgrade caps presenting a better over all presentation.
They do seem to have a peek between 1khz. and 2khz. as dose most drivers in the extended to to full range variety but it doesn't seem to change with increasing volume.
Or maybe Rocky 500 notices it more in his particular room as he rocks up the volume knob.Hard to say but it dose make for awesome guitar riffs.The Lores are not ruler flat near the upper ranges,I knew this from the first audition,the ZU Essence is far flatter than the Lores but they have a huge peek in the very top end from 15K on up with bass remaining tight but not as prominent as the Lores.
The Lores are a fantastic speaker but they don't graph like the Bonneville salt flats. |
