Why are subwoofers so polarizing?

Bo, I respect your passion for audio and being a dealer that seems to care about his customers. Your limited experience with Velodyne Subwoofers has left you with an understandable impression.

Currently Velodyne DD Plus subwoofers offer the user three methods of room optimization. Other than running a proprietary tone CD and a supplied microphone setup the first two programs are automatic in nature and require little input from the user. These two auto settings provided a somewhat boomy and not very well integrated result in my room with my system.

The Velodyne Manual Optimization requires the auto programs to be performed first as well as a software loaded computer linked to the sub.

The Manual Optimization is quite extensive and can initially be over the heads of many users but soon becomes easily useable. Velodyne offers very good support in this area. Manual offers a distinctive view of the total system frequencies between 1- 200Hz as seen in many periodical subwoofer reviews, as well as a full menu of EQ adjustments.

I spent the better part of a weekend of adjustment and listening sessions using the supplied tone generation CD, professional studio raw track file recordings of my Upright Double Basses, fretless Fender Jazz Bass, and a few very familiar recordings, to adjust my two Velodyne DD-12 Plus. This was simply to get the first and primary preset setup to MY taste. Long story short, the amount of time one spends with the Velodyne Manual Optimization can depend on many variables as well as one taste in low frequency reproduction.

I can't hear my subs unless some obvious ELF media is being played but turning them off is quite dramatic. Using sweep tone test material I cannot tell when my mains are running out and the subs takeover. It's seamless.

As you, I do not know which method your user used or just how much effort was spent on the users taste of integration. Judging by your description only the auto optimization was used which, in my experience, provides the presentation you've described. Unknowingly, this made enough of an impression on you to declare this as the sonic limits of Velodyne DD subs.

I can't help but respectfully yet strongly disagree with your assessment of Velodyne DD and DD Plus products. You're being a member of the audio industry I would suggest you consider your public negativity towards brands that you do not carry and especially brands that you admit to having limited first hand knowledge of. It may lower your credibility and is simply misleading.

The Monitor products you sell seem to be of high quality and well thought out. Your setup method is unusual but you seem to have found a presentation that satisfies you and more importantly your customers. Well done.

Bo, I'm interested in your testing with REL and Velodyne.

I had a chance to spend a few months with an expensive REL Studio III, JL Audio 113, and a Velodyne DD-18. The only measuring available to me was the Velodyne's built in Room Optimization system (using the REL line level input only).

I've heard you refer to this issue you have with what you call speed and wondering how you measured it? With the Velodyne system one is able to adjust arrive time and phase which can have a dramatic affect on what I perceive as speed.

I have found phase can change from track to track within an album recording. Surprisingly, there is little to no mention of this in subwoofer reviews I've read.

It's usually noticeable with the Bass drum being in or out of phase. With the Velodyne a simple push of a button on the remote you can hear the difference on the fly.

Or are you refereeing to the general characteristic of enclosure design such as the difference between sealed or vented, small or large driver, etc.?

Bo, how much time did you spend dialing in the (which) Velodyne and which program did you use?

Bo, Again, how much time did you spend dialing in the Velodyne's and which program did you use?

I asked you twice about your experience with Velodyne subwoofers and you replied.
["A few hours, the owner of the Velodyne had done the room acoustic settings. So I do not know which setting."]
Clearly, you don't have a clue as to the potential of Velodyne Room Optimization or would simply rather not let on about the equalization potential of these adjustments.

Now your saying.
["I use Velodyne sub's to let my clients understand why the Monitor Audio sub's are faster. I love comparing in audio."]

So your using uncalibrated Velodyne subwoofers in comparison to demonstrate the so called superiority of the brand you sell as the "best."? Hardly a comparison.

All of a sudden I feel sorry for your customers.

Why are continuing to berate a product that you have no personal contact with?
You take your golden ear measurements at shows and other unfamiliar environments and come to some arbitrary conclusions.

You have admitted to having no experience with Velodyne Manual Room Optimization witch can be used in many different ways not simply for attaining a flat response. Getting a flat response can simply be a starting point towards multiple settings that reflect ones personal tastes and stored in its presets to be called up by the remote on the fly.

Don't you think you would be better served in describing your method of integrating the products you actually sell. I've heard some pedestrian EQ lacking subwoofers dialed in amazingly well with Audyssey products. Maybe you could take a more positive track here and discuss your experience with Audyssey.

Mapman, well said.

While some manufactures are offering more and better subwoofer equalization to aid in subwoofer installation and improve integration with the main system there is still an amount of effort involved.

On the other hand taking the time and making the effort can reward the user not only with a seamless integration but a much better understanding of the relationship between their room and extra low frequency.

For me sub integration was making a detailed primary adjustment to obtain a flat room response, time, phase, Q, etc., using the on board Velodyne DD Plus manual Room Optimization program.

Six subsequent presets are adjusted with slightly different settings to accommodate a few common shortcomings in recordings to my taste. With the exception of phase and gain I don't use the presets that often. Some of those late 70s early 80s poorly compressed recordings can benefit from a little kick in the slats.

Speaking of PA mixing, I live near the Greek Theater at UC Berkeley, one of the most forgiving and acoustically amazing venues on the planet. I'm amazed by how horribly this place gets reinforced time after time.

Not long ago The Fleet Foxes headlined a show there and made mention of the venues acoustical reputation. This was one of the most stunning mixes I've heard at the Greek. I wanted to congratulate their sound crew but there was nobody behind the board during or after the show.