Will do Dgob,
But probably best to do it on the new thread Removable Headshells 101?
But probably best to do it on the new thread Removable Headshells 101?
Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?
Thank you Raul for this valuable post. I agree with you......it is only in the last 10 years that I have mounted MC cartridges in my system. Before that I was happily playing with Nagaoka MP11, Stantons, and the original Garrott P77 bought from the Garrott Brothers themselves in Australia before they took their lives. The P77 in particular was the sweetest sound I heard mounted in my Hadcock GH228 on the Rega Planar 3 with the VTA raised slightly just as John and Brian Garrott told me. I've now gone through the Koetsus and Clearaudios and Lyras before settling on the ZYX Universe and Dynavector DV1s......but your posting has tempted me to reinstall the P77 in either my Copperhead or Schroeder Ref on the Raven AC to see if the advances in MCs over the years is real or imaginary? |
As Axel asked previously.........who suddenly decried that MCs are superior to MMs and that this was the direction that the High-End would take? Is it the reviewers or the manufacturers? One theory I have, which Axel and Raul allude to, is that the MCs tend to exaggerate the contrasts in the musical presentation, wringing enormous detail out of the high frequencies, not just in their fundamentals, but particularly in their harmonics. This 'extra' detail sounds initially impressive to listeners who feel that suddenly their systems are retrieving information not previously heard? With the hearing losses brought on by the aging ears of most analogue audiophiles and the solid preference for valve amplification shown by many of them, this suddenly 'spot-lit' detail of the higher frequencies is often all the evidence they need to assume that MCs are intrinsically superior to MMs? Once an audiophile has 'ditched' his MM cartridge and installed his MC, it is rare indeed for a revision to occur with the quest for a better and 'faster' or 'more neutral' MC resulting in the purchase of more and more expensive MC cartridges. The epiphany that one can experience when re-installing a great MM is rarely experienced and thanks to Raul, I have had that epiphany. When Raul talks about the..... RIGHTNESS/NATURALNESS that the MC can't show it.he speaks truly. The high-frequency exaggeration of the top end combined with a (usually) better controlled and delineated low end, often leaves the midrange, the core of musical presentation, in a slightly lean and unnatural limbo compared to the seamless 'organic' continuum of the MM cartridge structure. This may explain the popularity of the Koetsu 'sound' which tries to bring the midrange to its natural predominance over the high frequencies. Certainly I have learnt (and heard) over the past few weeks of intense comparisons between some of the very best MCs and the Garrott P77 MM, that the sheer relaxation, rightness, naturalness and 'likeness to live music performed in real spaces' of the Garrott P77 over the MCs seems to be a characteristic of MM cartridges. As all the equipment in our musical reproduction chain becomes more and more revealing, quieter, higher-resolving and in some ways more analytical, it seems prescient to step back and re-look and re-listen to the 'organic' transparent 'rightness' of the humble MM cartridge? |
For those interested, I have written a review/comparison of the Garrott P77 MM cartridge compared to the top MCs I have heard. Garrott P77 |
Hi Raul, For those interested, here is the link to the original specifications which came from John and Brian Garrott with my two Garrott P77s. Please magnify the images to read carefully the specs containe around the circular disc. GARROTT P77 Regards Halcro |
Montepilot, My phonostage only goes up to 60K loading so that's where the Garrott P77 is loaded to. I achieve best sound with the M20FL at well below 47K Ohms so I believe you should hear very fine sound at 47K. As Raul says....it's all system-dependent anyway but I wouldn't fret about it if you can't change? Trust your ears. |
Dear Raul, Yes, my Halcro DM10 Phonolinepreamp allows infinitely variable Resistance between 10K Ohms and 60K Ohms and infinitely variable Capacitance between 70uF and 490uF for MM/MI. I find the Resistance settings very easy to hear even whilst standing at the Preamp turning the knob. The Capacitance changes are far more subtle to hear and requires me to sit and listen carefully after each alteration. The M20FL is improving every day and it now exceeds the performance of nearly all the expensive MC cartridges I have had in my system. The 'body' of the music with the natural midrange (easily heard on vocals) combined with translucent ethereal highs which contain ALL the delicate details synonymous with LOMC make for an intense musical pleasure often missing with MCs. The soundstage (both width and depth) is palpable and luscious whilst the bass is as deep (if not quite as detailed just yet) as any MC except the Dynavector DV1s. The interesting thing for me is that, whilst you and I have completely different turntables and arms, we are hearing almost identical things from the same cartridges? Surely this demonstrates that once you achieve a certain level of playback accuracy, the 'type' of turntable and its drive system together with the 'type' of arm and its length becomes 'incidental' as long as the implementation is excellent don't you think? Regards Henry |
M20FL vs Garrott P77 I have just completed a comparison between these 2 MM cartridges....the Ortofon mounted on the Graham Phantom II whilst the P77 was on the Continuum Copperhead. On all music types there was more body and depth to vocals and double bass with the P77. There was also more width to the soundstage, more 'breathiness' to the vocals, better 'slam' to the bass drum and more delicacy to the cymbals and percussion. All in all....more 'involvement' with the P77. Now the differences were nowhere near as great as those between the P77 in the Phantom against the P77 in the Copperhead so the real test will be when I move the Ortofon into the Copperhead to see if the tonearm is responsible for the superior performance. And now a reality check! After this session I switched in my spare Phantom II tonearm with the Dynavector DV1s already loaded and played the same music. The double bass gained a lower octave and a definition and control lacking with both MMs. The cymbals. triangles, bells and percussion gained a shimmer and clarity of overtones and realism missing with both MMs. The midrange, particularly on vocals, did not seem as 'forward' or as deep, airy and 'rounded' as with the MMs but that may simply be a perceived contrast because of the extra extension at both frequency extremes. Solo piano showed a marked improvement towards realism with the caressing of the keyboard and the contact of the felt hammers on the strings. The sustain and vibration of the strings and the continuing overtones resonating on the soundboard simply surpassed the abilities of the MM cartridges. So as Raul has repeated on many occasions, we needn't pick one type of cartridge over another. LOMCs and MM/MIs have their virtues and limitations and we can enjoy both types depending on our moods and music type. |
Not at all Lewm. I stand by my praise of the Orto M20FL as I do for the Garrott P77 in a review almost a year ago. All I was stressing is that it is easy to become 'carried away' with a certain component or a 'change' in sound or even different emphases in tonal comparisons. That's why I wrote......"Reality Check" with my comparison to the LOMC Dyna DV1s. Now just to put THAT into perspective, I've found the DV1s and the ZYX Universe to be the best MC cartridges (out of Koetsu Urishi, VdH Grasshopper aka Symphonic Line, Lyra Helikon, Lyra Titan, Clearaudio Concerto, Clearaudio Insider Gold) I have ever heard in my system. I also suspect that whilst our ears (and brain) have good memories for many aspects of the sounds we have heard, they also have poor memories for other more clinical aspects of the sounds we have heard. Whilst I listen to the M20FL I am in awe at its cohesiveness, naturalness and overall convincing musical presentation. I hear the highs and and the lows and whilst I recall that they are not quite as extended as ZYX or big Dyna, I don't remember the exact extent of the differences? Our memory for some aspects of sound reproduction are so short that sometimes even the time lapse of moving the same cartridge from 1 arm to another (and going through the set-up procedure) is enough to 'even out' the differences. For instance if I didn't have 2 identical Universe cartridges installed on my DaVinci and Phantom II arms which enabled me to instantly compare arms, the differences were so subtle that I'm sure I would have been unable to hear that the DaVinci/Universe combination was slightly superior in all aspects over the Phantom? The point I think I am making is that there are indeed many great attributes to the old and cheap MM/MI cartridges which were largely forgotten over the last 20 years. But there are also certain endemic qualities to the very best LOMC cartridges that MM/MI cartridges may not be able to match? So why do we need to proclaim one technology "The Best"? It's a question that's becoming more and more relevant to most of the differing methodologies throughout the reproduction chain IMHO. Regards Henry |
Dear Raul and Lewm, Whilst I commented on the perceived differences (at the frequency extremes) I hear on switching back to a fine LOMC, I did not say that I 'preferred' the overall sound of the MC cartridge. After a day of re-listening to my favourites through the big Dyna, I grew rather bored with the sound (and believe me, on the Phantom II arm it is a technicolor extravaganza on the right recordings) and hankered for the qualities of the MMs. Switching BACK to the Garrott P77 was just as revelatory as the previous switch FORWARD. The immense bloom and naturalness of the MM replaced the somewhat flat analytical presentation of the MC. The increase in soundstage depth and width was equally noticeable and welcome but the most amazing surprise was the fact that I didn't consciously miss the added detail provided by the MC at the frequency extremes? It sounded complete from top to bottom yet far more relaxing, musical and 'real' than the Dyna....and again....the 'air' just amazes. I strongly recommend Raul and Lewm, that you attempt this experiment in BOTH directions several times. It really places the respective properties in brilliant context So yes Raul and Lewm, I do believe there are some things that LOMCs can do a bit better than MM/MIs but I also now believe (as Raul proclaims), that the presentation of the MM/MIs are more natural, satisfying and somehow truer to the sound of the original master tapes. |
Montepilot, What tonearm are you using when you get the RFI? The reason I ask is because I found this on my Copperhead with MM/MI cartridges also (because of the far stronger signal produced compared to LOMCs) and the reason was that the tonearm wiring through the Copperhead is unshielded and the Copperhead, being constructed entirely of plastic, does not provide the shielding metal arms do. It required a lengthy one-off wiring and shielding re-fit to my Copperhead to cure this problem. |
Dear Lewm, I think we see eye to eye (and hear ear to ear) on many things in audio. And yes you are correct in that the problem with the wiring was that the cartridge itself or the mounting was acting as an antenna. I arranged for DaVinci to send their terminated arm cable to Continuum (as I had no problems with MMs on their arm) who re-wired the Copperhead with it but it still acted like an antenna. Mark Doehmann form Continuum then internally shielded the DaVinci cable adding a properly connected ground wire, and kept it shielded except for a tiny length where it exits the arm. Because I have no problems with MM/MIs on the Phantom or the DaVinci or my previous Hadcock, I assumed that the metal involved it those arms did the shielding? |
Roy, What do you think of the P Mount adaptor that you can fit to a standard headshell? P-Mount Adaptor |
Hi Downunder, I've found the Empire 1000ZE/X sounds best in my system with 'arse' up....although only slightly. Nothing like the Garrott P77 or Ortofon M20FL. Also loading makes a huge difference and 60K Ohms (the max I can give it), sounds just great. I also give it min capacitance like Raul. How is your Technics EPC100C? I've been waiting anxiously to hear if you agree with Raul on this one? |
Dear Raul and Lewm, This IMHO is due that the MM/MI performance has lower inherent distortions or at least the kind of distortions are less agressive to our mind/brain and this sole characteristi makes a " diffrence " for the better.I am now undeniably aware of the existence of these 'distortions' with MC cartridges compared to MM/MI but I don't know what they are? Surely if they are so audible, they must be measurable? And yet I have never seen or heard mention of these distortions by anyone anywhere except on this Forum? And if these clear source 'distortions' can't be scientifically verified by measurement or explanation, what hope is there for all the other distortions added throughout the reproduction chain? for more than 10-15 hours of playing I was hearing the cartridge around 3db up to what is my normal everyday system hearing. I was unaware of this because the cartridge so low distortions ( one of the lowest cartridge distortion-free ones. ), then I return to my normal SPL.This is another 'proof' of a great cartridge in my opinion, and can only be heard with those cartridges that 'eliminate' the distortions we have come to accept as 'normal' through the almost complete reliance on MC cartridges over the last 20 years. Isn't it wonderful to be 'encouraged' to turn up the volume by the absolute absence of 'distortion'? |
Interesting comments about current and past tonearm designs and their suitability for MM/MI cartridges. I find that differences with LOMC cartridges between my 3 primary arms (Phantom II, DaVinci Grandezza 12" Ref and Continuum Copperhead) are quite subtle. With MM cartridges like my Garrott P77, Ortofon M20FL and Empire 1000ZE/X, the transformation when mounted on the Copperhead arm is little short of staggering. The Copperhead is described as "LOW MASS PIVOT DESIGN - No additional mass is placed over the pivot to improve the responsiveness of the bearing system. The Copperhead is free of the inertial energy storage found in high mass bearing systems." Up till now I have been reticent in posting my impressions as there is almost no-one else out there with a Copperhead or Cobra arm to validate my findings (and those that are out there almost certainly have not mounted any vintage MM/MI cartridges thereupon). This may change shortly with Tuchan having both Cobra and Copperhead arms and mounting his first MM (although I believe it may be the Decca London which does not seem to rate in Raul's ranking system?) |
Downunder, The Continuum arms (Cobra & Copperhead) are also unipivots like the Phantom. Perhaps the term 'horrid' was a bit strong. In the Phantom arm my MM cartridges sound as 'good' as the expensive ZYX Universe and Dynavector XV1s. It is only in comparison to the Copperhead that the term 'horrid' was used in relation to the Phantom. But guess what?........with the Empire 1000ZE/X in the Copperhead, both the Universe in the DaVinci and the XV1s in the Phantom sound equally 'horrid' in comparison. I simply cannot listen to MC cartridges any more. Raul, you simply MUST get a Copperhead to hear all your wonderful MM cartridges. Strangely enough Downunder, I can't play my Azden cartridge in ANY of my arms due to "a mist of RF and other associated crap" just as you seem to experience with the Phantom? |
Downunder, Funny that you should mention tubes because that is as close to a description of the differences I hear when playing MM/MI cartridges on the Copperhead compared to the Phantom and DaVinci. There is no single facet or area of difference.....it is a quantum leap in overall performance that is akin to listening to an entirely different system which puts your old one in the shade. The air, transparency and depth sound like the very best valve preamps and amps whilst the soundstage expands enormously. Combine this with an almost total lack of audible distortions which are now just too evident on the moving coils. On the moving coils, the Copperhead was not better than the Phantom with every cartridge whilst the Universe suits the DaVinci a bit better than the Copperhead. This is why I am so puzzled by the complete transformation of the MM cartridges in the Copperhead and the total domination of it over the other arms? |
Downunder, You may be right in that the adjustment of damping may well help the sound of the Phantom II with MM/MI cartridges as the Copperhead has no damping at all. But seeing that the DaVinci has no damping (although it has a double gimbal bearing system) yet still suffers from poor matching with the MM cartridges, I don't feel like removing all the fluid from the Phantom well just to experience some slight improvement when the Copperhead offers such immense superiority as it is? Besides, the damping in the Phantom is fine for the LOMCs which I still have mounted on my other 2 arms. |
You don't get 23 templates.......you can choose 4 out of 23 (or probably 30 by now). Anyhow.......I think it looks promising and I've put my order in for the first production run. I'll let you know how it compares to the Mint when I receive it. In any case, I prefer the Feikert to the Mint for various reasons. |
Thanks Raul, Situation corrected although I did have the Garrott P77 listed. The Empire 4000D/III Gold is everything you describe in your review...and perhaps even more. I intend to add reviews of both it and the 1000ZE/X in due course, which are quite different to each other yet offer insights into vinyl reproduction which seem to elude most LOMC cartridges? |
Dgob, I have both the 1000ZE/X and 4000D-III Gold and whilst I love the 1000ZE/X (only on the right arm), I strongly recommend that you obtain a 4000D/III whilst you can. I find it quite different to the 1000ZE/X whilst still retaining the seductive 'realism' of the Empires. It also is not so critical of arms being listenable even on the Phantom II. The 4000D/III is just so good.....I bought a second one! |
Dear Dgob, Thanks for the kind words. I'm sure that your Technics cartridge is giving you everything you need and sounds fantastic. What arm are you using it in? Not having one yet, I'm unlikely to hear it in my system compared to the 4000D/III. Incidentally,in what arm did you have the 1000ZE/X mounted? |
Downunder, Here is Raul's review of the Empire 4000D/III where he rates it up with your Technics.4000D Review I can't do much better than this but I've been listening to it in the Copperhead for a month now and I still can't fault it. It does things that I've never heard from any other cartridge. Cheers |
I bought the Azden YM P50VL on Raul's recommendation and the sample sent to me by the US dealer, hummed loudly on all my 3 arms. I sent it back and he claimed there was nothing wrong but would send me a new one. The new one ( I suspect the same one simply returned), also hummed loudly on all my arms ( which now number 6). I simply placed this cartridge from the fine gentleman who sent it, on the ground beneath my size 8 steel-tipped boot and squashed the bejesus out of it. The sound was decidedly well balanced and realistic. |
Ok guys.........I'm not quite a 'serial cartridge killer'. Just one measly recalcitrant Azden....although a few years back I did feel like doing the same with a new Titan i which refused to match well with my Hadcock GH 228 arm. However....cost considerations made me sell it instead. Now perhaps I could have sold that infernal Azden and pretended nothing was wrong with it as the gentleman who sold it to me did??? Then again I would never had heard that inimitable crushing sound of metal, plastics, coils and magnets.........so satisfying. |
Hi Tobes, Good question..........one I was going to address on this Forum in a few weeks. However, I have been listening day and night to so many cartridges on so many arms on two tables that I feel comfortable about putting at least the Garrott P77 in some perspective. With so many top class MM cartridges, the P77 unfortunately has dropped quite considerably in relative brilliance. Top of the list undoubtedly is the Technics EPC-100Mk3. Certainly the most 'perfect' cartridge this little black duck has ever heard. Next would be the Audio Technica AT-155LC followed by the Empire 4000D/III and the Empire 1000ZE/X. Next would come the Dynavector XV1s mounted in the FR-64s or even better, the FR-66s. Until you hear this cartridge in those arms, you have not really heard the XV1s. Below these come the disappointing (relatively) Audio Technica AT 20SS Special Edition, then the ZYX Universe and Garrott P77. Below these would be the Ortofon M20FL and the Sonus Blue but really the air is so refined at the top of this list that I've spent little time actually listening to these? I hope this helps you for the time being? Good luck. |
Hi Tobes and Headsnappin, The great cartridges are out there and it just takes some patience and constant monitoring on Ebay......but I know what you mean. Don't become discouraged because I've always been able to find what I wanted......for instance after discovering just how good the AT-155LC is I looked for another on Ebay and found someone selling the body (with an after-market stylus), and another seller with a NOS original replacement 155LC stylus. Voilà........I now have 2 complete AT-155LC cartridges. Tobes, I strongly recommend that you postpone the Garrott purchase and hunt down one of the named 'Gods'. The differences are simply astounding. Good luck again. |
Dear Tobes, Unfortunately, out of every arm I've tried (7), the Phantom is the most unhappy match for every high compliance MM I've used? If you think the P77 sounds ok in it, wait till you hear it in a better matched arm? You will simply not recognize it. I don't really know how to overcome your predicament other than by buying another arm? The Grace 940G was recommended by Raul as a good match for MMs and I've found this to be correct. There is one for sale on Ebay at the moment for $450 which certainly won't break any banks, otherwise the Micro Seiki MA505s is a top quality arm with on-the-fly EVERYTHING..........and also sounds superb on MM cartridges. With the Phantom, I'd strongly suggest sticking to low compliance LOMC only. Sorry and again, good luck. |
Dear Dgarretson, My phono stage only goes up to 60K Ohms so probably explains the 'muted' initial presentation. Thanks for explaining. I guess with so many cartridges to listen to, it also does not allow one to persist with break-in of an initially lesser sounding one? How do you suggest I compensate for the loading problem? |
I second the Raul approach. I've done it with a pair of Vandersteen 2 Wq subs. Before that I had a single REL Stadium II and ran it alongside my speakers running full range because the REL internal Xover was so destructive to the sound of my main speakers I had no choice. The difference it makes to your main speakers' performance as well as the amps, is remarkable. |
Dear Dertonarm, It's encouraging that you seem to be in some agreement about the 'distortions' I'm hearing in most Moving Coils. I wonder what it is that makes those examples you quote, the exception to the others? In any case I'm looking forward to hearing and FR-7 or FR-7f in my system eventually? How does the Ikeda 9 compare to the FR-7f in your opinion? Cheers Henry |
I was offered that Technics Mk4 by the Dealer 2 days before it was listed and asked Raul if I should buy it? You see over the last 3 months I have been buying quite a bit of vintage stuff, TT-81, arms, cartridges, headshells etc and the few Dealers in this exotica see you as their 'Clients' often giving you first choice at rare items. There are various analogue operatives around the world, selling vintage cartridges, headshells, tonearms and turntables often advertised on Ebay. The ‘epi-centre’ appears to be Hong Kong with a strong Australian presence as well. Brands are pretty consistently Micro Seiki (turntables & tonearms), Fidelity Research (tonearms), Audiocraft (tonearms), SAEC (tonearms), Audio Technica (cartridges & headshells), SME (tonearms), Technics (tonearms). Items in demand such as the Micro Seiki RX-5000 turntables, FR-7 series cartridges and Technics EPC-100 cartridges are rarely even advertised, generally being offered directly to waiting clients in Germany and Japan. This ‘Demi-Monde’ is amazingly active with extraordinary prices being asked and paid. And if you think it’s just wealthy collectors snapping up these items because of their ‘scarcity’, think again. Almost no vintage electronics or speakers are part of this market as the ‘buyers’ know that the modern products are better in these cases, than the old. Equally well known is the belief that the best of the ‘old’ tonearms, turntables and MM cartridges are generally unbeaten by current production samples. So these ‘collectors’ (and there must be hundreds), are actually analogue lovers and listeners. They are probably not spending their time on audio forums as much as listening, tweaking, evaluating and buying. They have obviously heard about these products from various friends and acquaintances and their ‘word-of-mouth’ network elevates the ‘best of the best’ to the top prices. Thus Fidelity Research FR-66s tonearms are now being advertised for $10,000 whilst EPC-100 Mk3 and Mk4 used cartridges are fetching over $1,000. We are also seeing re-plinthed Technics SP10Mk3 turntables going for $14,000? Now compare that to a one year old DaVinci Grandezza 12” Ref tonearm fetching $4,000 after retailing for $10,000? As a stockbroker friend of mine likes to say…….”the Market is always right”. Because I am now a 'Client', I get offered 'stuff' almost every day. The dealer I bought my FR-66s arm from, offered me a 'boxed' one in mint condition a week later!? In any case I declined to buy the Technics Mk4 because I'm more than happy with the Mk3 which comes with its own integral headshell and ingenious stylus guard. I didn't think any minor improvements were worth the hassles of the 'P' mount and adapter and I think the AT-155LC and Empire 4000D/III and !000ZE/X are close enough in performance at 1/4 the price. |
Sorry Lew, I'm writing from the garden where I ended up due to that 'bulging' midrange! I've yet to hear anyone compare the Mk3 and Mk4 EPC100? Even Raul admits to not having both but I'd eat my Stetson if there were a complete change of character? The problem as I see it from my garden here, is that you have yet to hear the mongrel that Herr Professor invented called the Signet TK 3/155LC? Lew and SS gear? I can't see that?! |
Wdi, I started off with my Empire 4000D/III mounted in the low-mass unipivot Grace 940G which I imagine is quite close to your Morch DP-6? Surprisingly I found the 4000D/III a better match to the high-mass Fidelity Research FR-64s as was also the case with my Empire 1000ZE/X (go figure?) This was further demonstrated when I mounted the 4000D/III in the FR-66s tonearm where it produced it's best qualities. Simply wonderful cartridges those two Empires. |