IMO, this OP touches on some very complicated questions. That is, how can one obtain reliable information about a product, be the source of informatin be from reviewers or B&M sales people??
I'll digress just briefly on the early days. At one time, mags like Stereophile did NOT accept advertising, e.g., J. Gordon Holt's Stereophile "booklet" back in the 70s. Nonreliance on advertisers certainly "biased" the reviewer to be "non-biased" (pun intended).
Not so today. Yes, on a very infrequent occassion, I have read a review that pointed out "some" unfavorable aspects or deficiencies about a piece of equipment. But very infrequently. So, as the other folks said above, I'll read the reviews, but take them with a grain of salt.
But the salt doesn't stop there. I've said this before, B&M outlets sell what they have. And there aren't too many retail dealers around who carry, or can afford to carry, a wide range of brands for comparison. And even if you listen to something of interest, how meaninful is it when one considers system synergy and how the piece will sound in YOUR house on your rig??
I've also mentioned this before, I haven't been in a B&M store for as long as I can rememeber. However, I have swung some telephone deals on equipment that I wanted because I couldn't find the gear on the "Gon."
Bottom line for me: it has taken me a long time to assemble my rig -- from cartridge, TT, phono pre, CDP, linestage, amp and speakers. Many a purchase has been made off the Gon, tried, then resold if it doesn't ring my bell. So far, I've been fortunate that churing gear hasn't cost me too much.
Have I made the best possible choices? Would my picks make it on "The Best of [____]" OPs? Haven't a clue.
Having said all that, I do read A'gon everyday out of pure interest. I take member comments quite seriously, especially when I read other members echo similar comments. Right now, I've kick started someone else's OP on the ARC Ref 150. It's a piece that's on my long range acqusition list. Btw, based on member comments, I upgraded my ARC Ref 5 linestage to the SE version. So far, I'm not disappointed.
That's about all I can say -- which I guess is a lot. Just a few final comments. At least with ARC gear, I DO believe there's a natural synergy and benefit staying all ARC. Also, at the expense of starting another speaker war, I think one of the best speaker values on the market is the Paradigm Sig 8 (v2 or v3 with beryllium dome tweeters). But be careful -- they are not very tube friendly. They like high current SS amps. However, I think my ARC VS-115 is pushing through ok.
Regards,
Bruce
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Are there any really good "no advertising, underground" type mags or web sites worth checking into. And btw, I reiterate that I have found many A'gon member comments and suggestion very helpful. I decline to mention names (handles) so as not to embarrass anyone, but A'gon is fortunate to have quite a few "EE" tech members whose posts I consider to be terrific. |
Lew and Raul, I greatly respect both of your opinions and knowledge. But Raul made a couple of points that jive with a technical issue that I am presently sorting through. As you can see from my system description, I own Paradigm Signature 8 speakers and drive them with an ARC tube amp which puts outs 120 wpc.
Raul is correct in saying that matching an amp with a particular speaker is an electrical issue. Lew, I'm sure you read Ralph Karsten's White Paper that explains the so-called Voltage and Power Paradigms. As I am learning, some speakers have impedance curves and phase angles that make them tube friendly. However, other speakers were designed and voiced to be driven by solid state amps, not tube amps. And many of these speakers may not be so tube friendly.
I appreciate that there are a lot of other factors at play when matching amps and speakers. But some tube amps will simply have a hard time driving speakers with wild impedance curves and reactive phase angles, especially in the low frequency range.
Perhaps an even more important point. If a speakers was designed and voiced with the expectation that it would be driven by a SS amp, even if a tube amp has the umph to drive the low end, the speaker's acoustic signature may change the whole presentation. Hence it is possible that a speaker that is spec'ed to be ruler flat if driven by a SS amp, may not perform the same if driven by a tube amp.
In my case, my Paradigm S8s are the "back of the room darlings" of many a reviewer, including Mark Mickelson. See his article in the May, 2010 edition of TAB. The S8s were voted by another mag to be the best speaker on the market in 2011. Isn't that great?? [sic]
But here's the darker side to the story. After reading Ralph's White Paper and doing a lot more research, it became apparent that my speakers are NOT so tube friendly. Ooops. The impedance curves and reactive phase angles made me dizzy.
I spoke with Paradigm's technical folks and they said that the S8s were designed and voiced to be driven by a high power/high current amp. Oh sh*t!! Ralph's White Paper would describe such an amp as a Voltage Paradigm amp, or more commonly known as a typical SS amp.
Aside from issues pertaining to my ARC tube amp's ability to tackle my speaker's low end, I suspect that its acoustic presentation is different than described in Paradigm's literature.
This issue, or at least facets of it, has been raised in numerous Forum OPs. But here's my gripe and it's a big one. I think it's incumbent on the manufacturers to expressly state whether their speakers were designed to be driven by a tube amp or a SS amp, or perhaps both. Similarly, I think it's incumbent on the reviewers to alert their readership of the same point.
While one can argue about the virtues or deficiencies of tube versus SS, if the electrical match with the speaker is way off, the argument is simply academic.
So now, I'm trying to tweak my rig to get the type of performance that I expected to get after reading company literature and all the reviewer articles that are posted on the company's web site. Right now, I'm playing with the output tranny taps and also contacted Tom Tutay to custom design a low pass filter that will be inserted between my line stage and amp. The objective is to try an tame my speakers.
My bottom line advice to my fellow members is do your homework if buying new speakers or a new amp. Electrical matching is the FIRST question to be asked and answered. Try to obtain impedance and phase angle graphs. If the impedance curves and phase angles are moderate, the speaker may be tube amp and SS amp friendly. Also, call the speaker company's tech people and ask what type of amp the designers had in mind to drive the speaker.
That's about all for now. I'm sure my post will generate a lot of negative push back, but this is where I am holding now until someone cogently explains otherwise.
Cheers. |
Mapman, that's the whole point. Unless the reviewer points out this critical fact, his article is meaningless. It's like trying to buy top grade mountain bike tires for a $5000 road bike. Yeah, they'll work, but the match is wrong.
Unless the speaker/amp manufacturers and the professional reviewers come clean and explain this issue, the consumer is blind. And btw, I called a local Paradigm dealer to find out if I could borrow a SS amp to try out at home. The answer was no. Further, the dealer didn't even have the S8s on the floor. So why bother.
Folks, you can read reviews all day long. Even if every reviewer says speaker X is the next best innovation since the invention of sliced white bread, it's a waste of time if the speaker was voiced to be driven by a SS amp and you hook it up to the finest $50,000 tube amp. The match is just wrong. It's just about as dumb as trying to put a high compliance cartridge on a tone arm that should only be fitted with a low compliance cartridge.
I repeat what I said above. As I have learned, before buying an new amp to go with your darling speakers, or new speakers to go with your darling amp, make sure you have solid data that tells you the two are good electrical matches. |
Mapman and fellow members, I repeat what I just wrote. The real point goes way beyond the value of reading audio reviews. As I just wrote:
"Folks, you can read reviews all day long. Even if every reviewer says speaker X is the next best innovation since the invention of sliced white bread, it's a waste of time if the speaker was voiced to be driven by a SS amp and you hook it up to the finest $50,000 tube amp. The match is just wrong. It's just about as dumb as trying to put a high compliance cartridge on a tone arm that should only be fitted with a low compliance cartridge.
. . .
As I have learned, before buying an new amp to go with your darling speakers, or new speakers to go with your darling amp, make sure you have solid data that tells you the two are good electrical matches."
I strongly advise my fellow members. Read Ralph's White Paper. Try to understand the relationships between watts, voltage, amps and impedance. If you understand what this means, you'll start to appreciate why I, Raul and others have harped about making sure Speaker X was designed and VOICED to be driven by a tube amp or a SS amp, or the best of all worlds, both.
Then read your favorite reviewer's article and see if he touches on the very simple issue of electrical compatibility, before or after he declares the speaker or amp the best piece of gear he ever heard.
Oh, when you go to audition an amp or speaker at a B&M store, keep in mind how the dealer matched the speaker and amp before making a purchase decision. It may save you a lot of aggravation after you bring your new whatever home.
BIF |
Swampwalker, I'm basically in your camp. The point you touched on has also been discussed ad nauseum on the Forum, because I personally do not believe in the notion of "faithful sound reproduction." The very term is either an oximoron or a non sequitor.
We all know that recorded music, regardless of medium, is highly engineered. I suspect that one might even be disappointed by a live music performance versus an engineered sound studio recording. But that is a discussion for another day.
But to the point in your post above, I still think it's better to start on a level playing field regardless of how the final presentation sounds. That is, if a speaker is reported to have a flat FR and have a certain acoustic presentation -- if driven by a SS amp -- but not so if using a tube amp, I want to know that before making a buying decision.
Maybe some folks don't care. I freely admit that a speaker that is ruler flat when measured in an anecheoic sound room will likely not be ruler flat when you take it home. BUT, at least I have some comfort in knowing I'm playing on that level playing field.
And for the record, I love my ARC tube gear. I also think my Paradigm S8s are fine speakers. I'm just a tad rattled because I figured out too late what it really means when one says a speaker is "tube friendly" or "SS friendly," or both.
And since this OP is about reviewer reliability, I think this very important issue should be prominently raised in every tech review.
Mapman, yes in the end you're correct. But if there is a really serious electrical incompatibility between an amp and a speaker, you don't get to the ear part. |
Frogman, first off, the purpose of my posts is not to eschew the superiority of tube versus SS -- technologically or acoustically. Not at all! My posts speak to the issue that one should be mindful about whether a particular speaker is a good electrical fit with a particular type of amp, be it tube, SS, or perhaps both. Period.
As to how I came to this issue, although I don't know dork about EE, I'm a EE/scientist whanna-be. So I read and ask a lot of questions, both publicly on the Forum and privately via e mail. The process for me has been a slow learning curve.
Based on a number of private and public conversations with the EE/engineer geeks, I believe that a really bad electrical match can change the acoustic presentation of what comes out of the speaker. Depending on the degree of mismatch, the speaker might not wind up sounding like the designer intended.
A couple of the Forum techies convinced me to try the 4 ohm taps. Initially, I thought the sound was terrible. The geeks convinced me to hang in there. So I did.
What I think I'm hearing now is a tighter low end FR because the speakers take an impedance dive to 4 ohms below 100 Hz. So the 4 ohm tap is a better impedance match. The damping factor is probably a little higher too.
I'm not sure why or even if the speakers sound less forward than when driven on the 8 ohm tap. It might be that driving them on the 4 ohm tap tames the acoustic response at the 2.2K Hz crossover point where impedance climbs to 28 ohms.
A tube amp would naturally put out less power facing that much impedance; a tube amp is much less affected by the resistive load. See the White Paper. If all that is so, then my tube amp would be putting out more power (watts) at the impedance bump as compared to a tube amp. Ergo, the possibility that the speakers might sound bright and forward.
Perhaps, running the speakers off the 4 ohm taps lessens the power output at 2.2K Hz impedance peak. Not really sure. Got a private e mail into one of my geek buddies to see what he thinks.
I'll tell you this in summary -- regardless of whether I or anyone else likes my speakers more or less on the 4 ohm tap versus the 8 ohm tap, what IS important is that the acoustic presentation is different. And that's the point I'm trying to get at here - electrical matching (or not) affects the acoustic presentation. Frankly, some may like the coloration, and that's a personal choice.
I hope I answered your question. |
