What Makes a Good RIAA or Line Stage?

Dear Thom: IMHO the audio device whole design is what determine which kind of PS do you need.

Which are the voltages/current where the active parts run optimal for the best quality performance, overload margins, we can run those active devices full or at 30% of their specs ( like in the Essential 3150 ), what are the current/voltage needs in the worst stage, cascode source/fountain or not, type of regulation and filtering, how many ps stages, gain stages, needs on output level, distortion/noise levels, chokes or not, whole needs of the whole circuits, separate ps for each " stage " or not, circuit running in class A or what?, ps " power on " all the time or not, etc, etc.

As you can see there are more a lot more subjects than only capacitance. A good ps has to take in count those subjects and many more ( including the ideal capacitance number ) and the " secret " in a good ps design is to optimize any single ps area.

A good audio device design with a bad ps design will sounds bad and a good audio device design with a good ps design will be sound superb.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Bob: In a " perfect system with perfect audio devices that 1db deviation or any deviation that comes from the phono stage will be the same at the speaker output, but there is no perfect audio devices.

A signal that comes from a phono stage has to pass through: cables/connectors to the line stage, then in to the line stage, again to cables/connectors to the amplifier, then inside the amplifier and through the speaker cables: in all of these single " stages " the signal is suffering a degradation over the deviations that already has the signal that comes from the phono stage, when this signal goes out the speakers, IMHO, those deviations will almost be magnified but only with measurements about we could know for sure how much.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Dan: Absolutely and José and I already tested about, the colorations/distortions/degradation are differents depending where in the frequency range are those inverse RIAA eq deviations.
Almost all phonolinepreamps have its own " colorations " other than the RIAA eq but the ones in the RIAA are more " be present at " because any single frequency deviation affects almost three octaves and this three octaves deviation we noted like a coloration, this special coloration is really a degradation to the cartridge signal because those frequency deviation does not exist in the cartridge signal.

One of the first critical and important task in any phonolinepreamp ( is one of the reasons why they exist ) is to mimic in accurate way the RIAA eq, this inverse RIAA eq must be that " mimic/accurate " to be ( at least in this stage ) truer to the recording .

A good phonolinepreamp IMHO has to have a inverse RIAA eq. deviation no more than 0.05db from 20 to 20kHz.

Our Phonolinepreamp RIAA eq deviation spec is: 0.015db but normally we are below that figure. Obviously that this spec not tell us how the audio device will sound, José already explain other very important subjects to have a good quality performance in a Phonolinepreamp device.

Hagtech, I agree with you about the misunderstood when we name " balanced " to a phono cartridge, it is not, our design is fully differential input to output and the connection is " floating ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: About the line stage and specially in an analog audio system the whole design has to be very carefully and almost perfect in every single block on the line stage.

When we begin the Essential 3150 Phonolinepreamp design we don't start with the phono stage but with the line stage, one of the reasons was that the signal that comes from the phono cartridge not only has to pass through the phono stage but through the line stage too and at this line stage we have to take care that the signal does not " suffer " any or almost any degradation, from this point of view the line stage is critical at the same phono stage level design and that line stage has to be optimal in all circuit/operation parameters to conserve ( at least ) the same quality performance that comes from the phono stage, very hard to achieve but IMHO this has to be our target about. The people that already hear the Essential 3150 comments that the performance is good not only with analog source but with digital source too.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear JH: I respect your point of view and I understand it.

My point of view is a little different: I'm looking for the best don't distorted/colored sound performance, the high deviations in the RIAA ( as you say ) have to be added to many other deviations in the whole audio system and this means that when the sound comes from the speakers what we are hearing is the original signal plus/with a exponential deviations/distortions added.
What happen if any one of us try to remove or at least take to a minimum all those frequency deviations/distortions in any single link in the audio chain?, IMHO all of us will be nearest to the recording and nearest to the live event: this is my target and this is what we try to do in our designs, nothing less: a very hard task btw but with lovely quality sound reproduction rewards for all of us.

We are starting the amplifier and tonearm design and that is our first target in those designs: we don't care if before or after our audio devices the deviations/distortions are bigger, as a fact this subject is what promote in José and I the Essential 3150 Phonolinepreamp self design.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: +++++ " I too have to wonder about the necessity of obsessing over small fractions of a dB in RIAA accuracy when in room speaker response varies by such huge amounts... " +++++

The proof is is on the hearing and you can heard it through the Essential 3150, as a fact we heard at your place.

+++++ " experiment and introduce larger and larger RIAA errors ... " +++++

We already do it ( in some ways and not in perfect way ) and that is why I speak in absolute terms about.

Again, your quality sound reproduction targets/priorities ( like JH ) are a little different from ours: we are looking for the perfect sound reproduction, perhaps we never achieve that target but in all ways we will work hard to be the nearest that we can and the inverse RIAA eq. accuracy is one of the targets that help to achieve that very high target.
We can't tolerate distortions/colorations/noises everywhere and we can't accept ( in any way ) that because the speaker/room interaction produce big frequency deviation then we don't take seriously what happen in other links in the audio chain taking in count when we have the control and the knowledge for lower that distoritons/colorations/noises in the Phonolinepreamp and in the future in the amplifier and tonearm.
Thom sorry but I have to disagree with you on that subject: every single " sand grain " is important, the inverse RIAA eq. accuracy in our Essential 3150 is only one way to lower the colorations in our design we have several other subjects that help too to lower those colorations/distortions/noises.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Greg: You are right.

yes, we added the 3.18us pole. You can choose it with an internal " switch ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: Fortunatelly, like JH told us, there are different " roads " to meet the " border " and the freedom to do it.

Any one has its own " principles and priorities " and music bias in the sound reproduction.

Thom IMHO the best noise is no noise. Now, if we can't dissapear that noise then a good noise is " better " than a bad noise.

We are not " specs/number " lovers per se, but in some way we have to reflect what we are hearing through our designs.
We think that our designs not only have to " sounds great " but to measure great too and if we could achieve both targets that's will be great, don't you think?

I agree with JH about the emotional link with the music through and audio system, with out this interaction between the music and us it does not matters specs or design.
We try hard to have that link in the sound reproduction perception and at the same time to meet very low noise/distortions/colorations and accuracy ( like in the RIAA eq ).

Thom, I know that in theory almost all designers have ( between others ) these targets on mind but when we heard at those designs and when we read the specs I almost always ask me where/why some of them loose those targets. I'm not saying that we are perfects, far from that, but maybe we take care more in deep about simple " things " in the design philosophy, like José told us: the technology is there ready to help us, we only have to use it.

Jcarr: +++++ " The magnitude of RIAA error is not particularly useful unless we also consider the range of frequencies that are affected by the error. in practice, a 1dB deviation that only hits one note is not going to be very noticeable, but a 0.1dB error that spans an octave or more can be quite noticeable. " +++++

I agree with this statement if the RIAA was a line instead than a curve where if one " note /discrete frequency " moves all the adjacents moves too usually more than 2 octaves, we perceive these kind of deviations like a colored sound: these colorations belongs to the audio device but not to the original recording.

I agree with Jcarr about: +++++ " The results of using NFB have a lot more to do with the capabilities and sensibiities of the designer than NFB per se ... " +++++

this is something that José and I discuss several times and the conclusion was the same that Jcarr posted: depend of the designer, where to use, how to use it, how much use it.

Btw, JH and Thom we are not marketing oriented ( we don't manipulate the signal to achieve a " marketing signature " or something ), we are on the audio device design because we like it and because almost all the designs out there can't achieve our goals/priorities in the music sound reproduction in the way we like it, as a fact we design to meet our targets not the consumer ones, we think that through our audio/music experiences, honest on the design, open mind and having the live event like reference we could meet ( or ve near ) the consumer priorities. Maybe we are wrong but it is the way we think.

There is no single parameter that define perse the audio device design, usually all designs have to meet several goals to be " listenable ", how different from others?: that's depends on the designers skills, designers goals and execution of the design in a finish product.

There is no perfect designer/design, we all have limitations of different kind and always have limitations on the quality/tolerances of the parts that we use it: all these parts have limitations and in theory those limitations will be our limitations. Other subject about is the cost/retail price that is a important limitation when we want to share/market the audio device between some price range level.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: +++++ " 2. Will this component help me to enjoy EVERY SINGLE ONE of my recordings, and not just my audiophile recordings? " +++++

This is controversial: if the audio device is " colored " and that colorations don't meet your music sound priorities maybe it does not like you even with your audiophile recordings. If those colorations ( faulty ones ) goes with your priorities you will love with all your recordings, this is fine with me but it is not for what I'm looking for.
Certainly I'm looking to enjoy my recordings, enjoy the music sound reproduction but never with " false " colorations/distortions, I can't tolerate this way because my ears/brain tell me that is wrong that it does not " sound " in that way in a live event ( of course that we are too far from the live event ).

The music perception is totally a subjective event and for this point of view every one have a different opinion and I respect all of those opinions. I'm trying to be nearest to the live event through be truer to the recording on our designs.

Some of us are more tolerant to the noise/distortions than others, I'm not ( and José is less tolerant than me ) and like you posted you are. Two different point of view from two different persons, nothing wrong with that these differences make our day fun.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: This is the subject of your thread: +++++ " What Makes a Good RIAA or Line Stage? " +++++

We all already talk about many subjects for a better audio device design and I think that other one is lay-out, two same designs could sound different with different lay-out. Not many people think seriously about but the circuit board layout is of paramount importance for the performance in audio devices.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: With this I'm finish:

+++++ " Your "it has to be perfect" mantra is really tiring me out " +++++, that's what I posted: we are different in this subject but I can asure you that we have more in common than differences about sound/music reproduction.

+++++ " I'm sorry, Raul but as good as the Essential is, it is as colored as many of the other fine RIAA/line stages I rank in the top tier (and the Essential is a fine piece). " +++++

Absolutely, I never speak that it is not only that we try to leave those distortions/bad colorations at minimum, that's all.

+++++ " Please get over it and realize that no one can be all things to all people " +++++

Absolutely, I don't think in other way: I agree.

+++++ " Regarding Audio Puritans, " +++++

No. I'm not: I'm only trying to be better.

+++++ " a very lean and modern sound. " +++++

No, it is not ( I don't know what means " modern sound " ): the sound perception depends on the whole system and my point of view about is that our design is very high revealing of what happen in all the audio chain because that design does not hide almost anything out there, of course that the Essential is part of that audio chain and puts its " grain of salt " about.

The diffrences is how you, other people and I perceive the sound reproduction in an audio system and how be related against the live event or at least near to the recording.

Our attitude/philosophy in the electronic audio design is: truer to the recording and you can't blaim me for that, it is only a way to think that is a little different from yours and other people but there are other people that think in the same way that us: our design goes for that people and we will wait that the other people could change ( a little ) in the future, no our design is not for all in the same manner that horns speakers are not for every one.

Thom, thanks to our differences we have some fun and we can learn a lot about those differences, don't you think?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jcarr: +++++ " Many instruments have very different tonal balances depending on the angle and distance that you listen to them from, and you need to physically put your ears where the microphones are to verify whether what you think you should be getting is really what is inscribed on the LP or not (and don't forget that mikes have different frequency responses from our ears). I am fortunate enough to have friends who are recording engineers and have allowed me to sit by the microphones (sometimes on a ladder!), tap into the mike feed, go back to a normal seat in the audience, listen to the analog tape master on the same day, and then a few days later, listen to the lacquer masters. Very, very educational. I encourage you to search out opportunities to experience this. " +++++

This statement/experience is of paramount importance to understand the statement " truer to the recording ".

A week ago ( during my visit to San Diego ) Norm, Tim and I were talking exactly what you posted: that what we have to " hear " is what the micro's " take " and not want to hear what we perceive at our seat in the hall: that's too different, a lot different.
This is an e-mail that I send to those people following on that subject:

+++++ " De: Raúl Iruegas [mailto:[email protected]]
Enviado el: Martes, 20 de Febrero de 2007 12:10 a.m.
Para: '[email protected]'
CC: '[email protected]'
Asunto: Essential 3150.
Importancia: Alta

Dear Norm: Our “ hot “ conversation last night was really “ teaching “ for all of us ( I think ).

I would like to share with you some additional thoughts about:

For many years I asked why the sound of my system was more transparent, better soundstage, tonal balance, etc, etc than the sound that I heard at the music hall, after some time suddenly I “ find “ that the recording microphones have a very different “ seat “ position than mine, it is not only that the microphones are nearest to the source ( instruments and instrument “ room “ area ) but in more “ clean “ environment: Tim, you and me normally seated at 6-8 rows ( 20-25 meter ) where the sound that we perceived against the one that goes through the microphones are truly different ( not only by the distance subject ) for the dispersion ( reflections, diffusion, hall time delay, etc, etc, ) through the absorbing/diffusion of the “ hall environment that includes all the people that surround our seat place.

Now, the sound engineer on the recording process always try to choose the best microphone for its quality reproduction that include ( between other subjects ) very wide frequency response ( this depends on what kind of music they would to recording ) and the lesser frequency range deviation from flat: this means ACCURACY. With out this accuracy the sound recording will be more colored and normally the sound engineer does not want to have a “ colored “ sound session. This same sound engineer choose the best monitor speaker he can get and the main subject a bout is a “ whole “ accurate characteristic monitor speaker, not a colored one ( I hope ).

So, the recording must be an accurate one to the live event.

What is the “ critical mission “ that any ( decent ) phono cartridge has? ( TT/tonearm ), well to try to reproduce what is on the recording in the better accurate manner, with the less distortion/noise/colorations.
This signal that comes from the phono cartridge has to pass through the Phonolinepreamp and this audio device has the “ absolute mission “ to reproduce in an accurate way ( yes I know that other subjects about, but please forgot for the moment ) exactly what the cartridge get from the recording that was made through the microphones that were in a different position that our hall seat that is the way that you like to hear in your home.

Norm, I want that you think in deep about not thinking who is right here but using common sense and trying to help the true music reproduction. It is not a fact that what you like or what Tim and I like but what is the “ true “ or near the truer.

This “ truer to the recording “ accuracy approach does not means : analytical, cold, polite, lean, etc, etc sound reproduction, that I´m sure the Essential 3150 does not have, it must be accurate and “ pleasant “ and this is what we have to look when any one heard the Essential 3150. I´m not saying that the Essential 3150 already achieve that goal in a perfect manner but it is very near to that target.

In my humble opinion all the music lovers must support that kind of audio devices design approach because in that manner all of us could help to the music and most important could help to growing up faster the quality reproduction on the high-end audio device performers: any.

Anyway, we really had a great time during my visit.

Kind regards.
Raul. " +++++

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: IMHO thanks to our quest of exellence in the audio performance this thread exist. That quest on exellence bring us here.

I know exactly what you like to hear unfortunately you don't know the same about me.

You are a very well respected TT designer and I wonder what is your quest through your great TT design?

IMHO, I think that we have to look for " evolution " and this is what we are trying to do through our designs.
We always think that there are " out there " a better future for all of us and a better way to make " things ", we are on the quest of it.

I know that we have " to fight " not only against limitations in electronic parts, technology limitations but more important than that limitations in the way people think: this is our challenge, 90% or more of the Essential 3150 ( presentations ) were on tube lover audio systems, not an easy task I can tell you.

We try to be " open mind ", many people ask me why don't tubes?, my answer ( till today ) was always the same: we use all kind of technology that could help us to achieve in the best/better way our sound music reproduction targets and unfortunately the tubes can't help us, not yet: maybe in the future?, maybe: who knows?

Btw, my " hat off " to all non comercial mind tube designers because it is a great really great challenge to achieve " decent goals " in the Phonolinepreamp design with that technology: congratulations!!°

Thom, I know that you are the " boss " in this thread but I'm only trying to help to all of us with a little different point of view, at least from yours.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Thom: Ok, its done.

Ralph bring here a critical point in the phono stage: high overload, and not only is a good thing but a necessity.

We found that with increment on the overload we can have lower distortion and better quality performance all over the frequency range.

" that often bad recordings will reveal that more than good ones! ", IMHO both could tell us a lot of the performance designs: in a good designs the bad ones will sound " less bad " and the good ones a lot better, the average sound will be " good sound ". In a " bad dsign " the bad recordings will sound unlistenable and the good recordings only " ok ". At least that's what we experienced about, others could have different experiences.

A good design is the sum/add-up of many subjects and the right synergy between them: an accurate RIAA eq per se means nothing if it not coming along: low distortion, low noise, high gain, high overload, high common mode rejection, right lay out, precise ground planes/star grounding, wide bandwidth, low output impedance, right output attenuator/volume control ( by the way this subject is the Aquiles heel in many designs. ), linearity, execution/build design, etc, etc. and many other parameters that you already posted about.

The challenge is to link all those parameters when some of them " fight " one against " other " or when we have to fight with non-linearities or high order harmonics like in the bipolar design that we are using.
Here it is when we have to use not only the technology that we can reach but the experience, know-how and skills that every single designer has and that is different form each other, that's why exist several differences/approach on the Phonolinepreamp designs, some ones better than others or simple differents.

Obviously that any single of us could think that our design is the best one and many of us could think that we can prove it. We think that our design is different.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.