What headphone amp to buy-Sennheiser HD 600?

Marco,

Thanks. I've emailed the same basic question to the seller.

Bill

Marco,
I DID it! I took your advice and bought some tubes from the seller you steered me toward. They're on the way, and pretty soon it'll be time to get things "rolling".
-Bill

Marco:

Inexpensive: read roughly $10-20/tube for good stuff.

NOW yer talkin'!! Much, much better, for my budget anyway.

Marco,
Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, the seller did have recommendations, and in fact he put together a package of tubes for me. I'll let you and the others know when I know something.
-Bill

Thanks for all the responses so far. Checked out all the above links and may make some calls too.

Forgot (!) to mention that remote control would be really nice, if at all possible. Any ideas for that? Also, not absolutely locked below 1 K, but not interested in going totally insane either. Would only go above that level if the product offered VALUE, i.e., sound was worth the price.

Any additional ideas are appreciated.

Rgs92:

It's funny that you should mention the Stax line. I MAY have a line on some older but well cared for Stax Lamda Pro's, complete with a Stax vacuum tube amp ON THE CHEAP. Or, maybe not. Not totally sure yet.

So..........No remote, but I COULD buy reeeeeaalllly long Jaguar RCA's (5 meters) for 800, and MAYBE get these "earspeakers". Never thought I'd be able to afford high end Stax. Had been totally off my radar screen (I'm NOT Bill Gates, ya know....).

Any thoughts, IF it even materializes? Everyone, please, feel free to chime in.

p.s. to all kind and helpful A'gon-izers posting to this thread (which is HIGHLY appreciated, by the way): I didn't hear about this Stax steal "possibility" until today (12/23/05), AFTER starting this thread, and it may or may NOT be true (seeing is believing). So that's why this Stax question is added to the thread just now.

Quick update: Stax Lambda Pro headphones and some sort of a matching Stax Tube headphone amp to be dropped off at my house for auditioning on Monday evening, 1/9/06. Swampwalker, or anyone else--->any thoughts? Thanks.

Swampwalker,

Hey, thanks for the quick reply! You said:

Be aware that if you tube-roll the 006t, the biasing is a rather complicated procedure that involves iterative adjustments. If you decide you like it and want a near new hp extension cable, let me know.

I know this is an ignorant question, but what the heck is TUBE ROLLING? I'm assuming it's different than "cow tipping"......

Swampwalker:

Tube rolling sounds like a pretty intense undertaking. I may have to wait a while before going to those lengths. Checked out the Cary site and tried my best but couldn't figure out what the Cary 300sei is. Any further hints would be appreciated. Another A'gon-izer has ALSO recommended the AKG 1000's, so it may necessitate a look-see.

My profound ignorance regarding tubes is becoming increasingly apparent to me. Yikes! This is downright embarrasing! I know nothing about this topic--->NOTHING.

Marco:

Thanks for the advice. There will certainly be a learning curve with this, that's for sure! Duane had me try a tube preamp a little over a year ago on my system that had a B&K ST 140 amp, Paradigm Studio 100 V3's, and the Rel Storm 3. The tube amp was anemic in the bass with that setup, so I returned it. (See footnote) Anyway, I haven't tried tubes since, but will be doing so with these Stax Lamda Pro's, and their associated vacuum tube amp.

FOOTNOTE: It's the ONLY time I can remember Duane not correctly predicting whether I'd like or dislike some audio thing--not a bad track record for Duane, huh? This has been true even for things he didn't personally sell!

Robm321, and everybody else who has contributed to this thread so far:

Thank you all very much. Headphones are a whole new realm for me.

Quick Update, and request for additional opinions:

I just listened to a Stax Lambda Signature Pro System using the Stax SRM T1 dedicated vacuum tube amplifier. The signal is routed to the headphone amp thru the same player, dac, and preamp as the Intuitive Design Summit Loudspeakers and the Rel Storm 3 sub bass unit are.

The phones don't express the bass as well as the speakers driven by the Odyssey Extreme monoblocks and supplemented with the Rel Storm 3, but my guess is that I shouldn't expect that. They aren't BAD in the bass and it's certainly tolerable. There appears (on initial listening) to be a touch more detail, but not nearly as much more as I had expected: the difference is not that impressive. Furthermore, the high end is not as sweet as the Summits', but it isn't TOO harsh, and my guess is that the vacuum tube output stage is helping in this regard. Midrange proficiency seems overall similar between the Stax and the Summits; there MAY (or may not, I can't be sure yet) SLIGHTLY better midrange detail with the Stax, but timbre and tonality MAY (or may not, again) be SLIGHTY better on the Summits.

I'm sort of (but not really, I guess) surprised that the Summits hold up so well against these esoteric electrostatic headphones, and in fact, the Summits plus the Rel are CLEARLY the preferred listening mode, especially when soundstaging and bass reproduction are factored in. However, in the other areas mentioned, these seem to be at least close to the Summits, so they should be listenable in the long term (at least during the short interval between when my wife makes me turn off the Summits after 9:30 pm on school nights and when I go to bed).

All of the above having been said, here's the decision to be made: whether or not to purchase the Stax Lambda Signature Pro Earspeakers plus the SRM T1 vacuum tube headphone amp for the price of $850, all inclusive. I'm told that this 10+ year old system (which is in very good condition, by the way), originally retailed for about $2500.

So, what do you guys think? In the absence of strong advice against it, I'm about to pull the trigger.

Marco:

You said:

...the new Svetlana tubes that are only around $240 pair from CONUS in Canada.

Holy guacamole! "only" 240 clams, for a pair of TUBES?? Just how long can these tubes be expected to LAST (I'm reeeaaally hoping you say at LEAST a year or more)?

Are tubes really that expensive? GOLLY!

Marco,

It's beginning to look like I'll be using a Stax SRM T1 headphone amp to drive a pair of Stax Lambda Signatures, {{{{{although I now understand what Swampwalker meant about the "head sweating" problem!! }}}}}. I haven't read the manual yet, but they sounded better this morning after the amplifier, which has a vacuum tube output stage, was allowed to sit overnight plugged into my system with the "power" switch turned off, but the "pre-warm" switch turned on. I don't even know what kind of tubes it uses.

Stax questions:
--How expensive are these to get serviced, particularly with respect to the diaphragms?
--Given what I said (in the post before the tube sticker shock post) about their sound, does this seem like a reasonable way to go? {{Swampwalker?? Others??}}

Swampwalker:

As for the "gray" areas of the Stax marketplace, the pair I'm coveting are offered from the original owner, who purchased them from an authorized US dealer, so that won't be a problem. It's a great heads up in general, though. Price of repairs still COULD be a problem, and that's why what you said about the 404's is so interesting.

You said:

I can't remember why, but I think I preferred the Lambda Pros to the newer 404 series phone.

How big of a difference did you discern, if you can remember? The 404's appear to be the successor in the Stax line to the Lambda Pro Signature, although maybe that's wrong. In any case, the 404's can be had NEW for $499 at AudioCubes. So they could be an alternative if the price tag for repair of the Lambdas gets out of hand in the future, UNLESS you can remember something really bad about them......which is why I so selfishly ask you to jog your memory.
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Robm321 and Swampwalker:

It sounds like both of you, and many others, are impressed with the AKG 1000's. Do you think they'd work with the Odyssey amplifiers I have? What about the bass response of these?

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Marco:

You said (and Swampwalker too, but these are your words quoted):

I believe it uses 6CG7 (also 6fq7) - fairly common and not expensive. My preamp uses (only) two of those tubes and I like it very much.

Not to sound like TOO much of a cheapskate, but how much is "not expensive" from your perspective? Also, what about "tube rolling" with THESE tubes???
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EVERYBODY:

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowlege and experience and your patience in doing so! Every single post to this thread has been helpful in some way! (See optional footnote, if you want to...)

{{{{OPTIONAL footnote: This thread is fun--at least for me, maybe not for some of you (!!!)--but also it's demonstrating to me how little I know about tubes, and it's a strange feeling to confront my own ignorance on this topic: Marco, your kind words regarding my confessed "tubal retardation" are very much appreciated.}}}}

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Swampwalker:

Looks like you may be right about Audiocubes. They don't come right out on their web site and say, "We're a gray market dealer." But they have no US warehouse and repair units go to Japan if I'm reading their site correctly. They also talk about maybe needing a transformer for some units, etc. Guess these choices aren't always black and white.

To ALL kind and patient headphone amp discussion thread posters:

Thanks to all for the advice, which shows that I know next to nothing about headphones, or at least it seems that way. Yes, I have been paying attention, and have checked out all or nearly all of the items recommended, at least on the internet.

Quick update: I've decided to purchase the Stax mentioned above based on their sound, but I did have the same sweating problem that Swampwalker mentioned. So, I still may want to keep the Sennheisers, based on their comfort, and their potential, which must be pretty darn good given all the great headphone amplifier advice people have given on this thread. Not sure how (or when) to audition all of these, though. Most of the manufacturers list their prices, but it doesn't look like Singlepower does.

What about using the SRM 1 as an amp for the Sennheisers? Is there an adaptor that goes from the 5 pin Stax jack to conventional headphone type of jack?

Robm,

I saw your response to the other HD 600 thread. What made you keep your 600's if you own the AKG's?

Thanks again to all. This has been really great. I've been away from headphones for a long, long time, until now, so this has been very enlightening for me.

Bill

Swampwalker,
Thanks. Now I know why people sometimes call the Stax headphone amps "energizers". Dang!

Robm,
Thanks; I'm thinking of MAYBE keeping the Sennheisers too, but maybe not. It isn't certain yet. I'm still digesting all of this information about the different amplifiers, etc.

Footnote, sort of tangential, "optional" reading: I also have a very old pair of Denon AHD-700 pro monitors. They were 120 bucks new and sounded better (to me) than the Sony MDR V6 that sold (and maybe still sell) for 100 bucks. I dug them up and listened to them the other day. Nowhere near as good as what I'd remembered. Dang again! Don't know if I'll keep those either, although one good thing about them is that they can actually be driven by a Sony Discman, and of course they kick the everlasting snot out of the stock "headphones" supplied with the Discman. (They aren't 300 ohms like the Sennheisers.) Maybe they could be sold. They sounded quite good to me in the late 80's/early 90's........

Marco, which of those should I buy? I haven't a clue. (I suffer from "tubal retardation".) Thanks.

To anyone and everyone who knows about tubes (including Swampwalker and Marco):

Swampwalker has mentioned "tube biasing" with the Stax 006t. Is that amp a later generation of the SRM T1? That's what I have. Will the tubes have to be "biased"? If so, what's that? How does one bias tubes?
-Bill

Footnote, somewhat tangential and "optional" reading: I recently figured out that the headphones are the Lambda Pro Signature version, not the Lamda Pro. I don't know for sure whether that's "better" or not, but I think it is. Being the brilliant audiophile that I am, I managed to accidentally damage the one of the headphones' diaphragms with the vacuum cleaner, while trying to clean out the crumb from the degenerated foam, so the headset's out at Yamasinc for repair. Based partly on what Swampwalker said and partly what I read in a review, I opted to repair these back to Lambda Pro Signature status (with the thicker diaphragm) instead of trashing them and getting a new pair of 404's, which have a thinner diaphragm. The BEST idea would have been not to damage them in the first place. Oh well.....

Audioari1:
Thanks for the tip. Those seem to be priced reasonably, too. Now that I have the Stax setup, I'm uncertain about whether to keep or sell the HD600's, but if I do keep the Sennheisers, then there will be a lot of potential amps to consider.

Thanks again, to you and all of the other members who have contributed their insights and shared their experiences on this thread.
-Bill

Swampwalker,
Thanks for the information. Tube biasing sounds very difficult and time-consuming. I do have the Stax manual, though. I'll give it a shot after the tubes arrive and the headset returns from being repaired.
-Bill

WOW! Marco and Swampwalker, you two guys are GREAT! You explained it so well that I think I actually UNDERSTAND it (we'll see of course-LOL!). Thanks to both of you for taking the time to clarify that procedure. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the headset and tubes to arrive...
-Bill

"Get yourself an inexpensive digital multimeter from Radio Shack that reads in milivolts."
-Marco

Marco:
That sounded easy enough. When I checked, Radio Shack had something like six or seven different models, and all different price ranges, and I couldn't figure out from looking at them whether the more expensive ones were more accurate or just had more features, or just how accurate they needed to be anyway, and so on....I left the store to seek additional information, and I await your (kind, patient, and always highly appreciated) assistance.

So, not to sound like even more of a doofus, but how accurate does the thing have to be? Should I get a digital one? What kind of multimeter do YOU have? Thanks in advance.
-Bill

Swampwalker and Marco,
Thanks for the info. I'll go back to Radio Shack for "round two" pretty soon. Glad to hear that biasing is not that precise. Will look for Cat. #22-810, if available. This (entire thread) has been a great learning experience and a lot of fun (for me at least--LOL!!!). Thanks again, guys. By the way, dare I ask what a Fluke is?
-Bill

Richingoth, when you say this:

"Since biasing is adjusting the current in milliamps of the tubes and the user is adjusting in millivolts there has to be a precision 1Ω resistior that you are measuring across."

Does that mean that you think it might be better to spring for an expensive device, like a Fluke or something? Thanks.
-Bill

Swampwalker* and Richingoth: Thanks guys! That information is extremely helpful. The new tubes have arrived and now just the headset is still out.

*(Swampwalker: "Ignorance" is a term that has never even crossed my mind when thinking of you. It applies quite nicely to my knowlege of tubes, however!)

-Bill

Uh-oh, looks like my copy of the SRM T1 owner's manual doesn't mention tube biasing at all. #@%$&!! (It must be different than the owner's manual for the 006t that Swampwalker used to own). In an effort not to bug you guys any more, I actually did try to find a pdf of the owner's manual (in case the one I have is incomplete or something, even though it doesn't look incomplete), and did Google the question using the advanced search function. Guess what: Google sent me back here. Any SRM T1 owners out there?????? Marakanetz, are you an SRM T1 owner? Thanks again.
-Bill

Alo,
I've considered the MF X-Can tube buffer and may get one if I keep the HD 600's. Thanks for the info.
-Bill

"Tube buffer or headphone amp?"
-Alo

I suppose it would have to be both. But I just bought the Stax setup and want to see how that sounds after it gets back from being fixed. I'm still not sure whether or not I'll keep the Sennheisers and the Ramsey SHA 1.
-Bill

Quick update:
The Stax headset has returned from Yamasinc, and has been rebuilt to original Lambda Pro Signature status. They look beautiful. Price for newer model 404 would have been almost identical, but I opted for the restoration based on what Swampwalker had said about having heard both units, what they had sounded like before I broke them with the vacuum cleaner (yes indeed, quite an idiotic thing to have done, yes indeed....), and based on a professional review I found somewhere on the 404's that said that there was a peculiar artifact in the bass response that was absent in earlier versions. Two weeks to break in, then I'll have "NOS" Stax.

Main reason for posting: Yamasinc appears to have done just an excellent job, and that's worth knowing for other Stax owners who may be considering upgrades and/or maintenance with that company, which is the authorized U.S. distributor.

Although the headphones look beautiful, I was mistaken that they had been refitted with the original diaphragms that were used with the Lambda Pro Signature earspeakers. That diaphragm was discontinued several years ago and is no longer available. Therefore the repaired unit is esentially the 404, with its thinner diaphragms, according to the technician I spoke to at Yamasinc. They sound very good, but the original owner heard them on Sunday and said they didn't sound as good to him as when they had their original old Lambda Pro Signature diaphragms. Oh well, they still sound very good. But Swampwalker, you were right it would seem.

Now that the headphone system is up and running (I still haven't worked up the courage to change the tubes on the SRM-T1), it sounds excellent. It could still sound better, in my opinion. So.........what do you guys think of the ED-1 "diffuse field" equalizer made by Stax? Would this fill out the bass without introducing too much distortion, or is it more of a device to create an enhanced "soundstage" for the headphones? Is it worth pursuing one of these units which originally retailed for around $600? If so, what's a good price, and where can I steal one?

Epilogue:

Having destroyed the diaphragms on the original Lambda Signatures, then having them rebuilt at Yamasinc to essentially 404s with the new diaphragms, I wanted to see how the ORIGINAL version of the Lambda Signatures would compare. I found a pair in great condition and bought them. Because there are TWO pro headphone jacks on the SRM T1, I was able to compare the two sets (newer 404s versus older Lambda Signatures). The differences were definite and obvious, but not earth shattering. Through the SRM T1, which is tuned to the original Lambda Signatures (according to Yamasinc), the 404 equivalents were significantly more efficient, with higher output at any given volume setting. The 404 equivalents were significantly more detailed and crisp, and probably extend a little deeper in the bass. In comparison, the Lambda Pro Signature originals were sweeter and probably more "musical." When listened to at the same volume, the two were quite close. I preferred the sound of the 404 equivalents, but an audiophile friend of mine felt just the opposite, and we each listened to both of them at the same sitting. One of us could listen to one pair while the other one listened to the other pair on the same track.

Alas, after all that, I ended up selling the whole Stax headphone system and also plan to sell the Sennheiser HD 600s. None of them sound good enough compared to the Intuitive Design Summits; it's as simple as that. I'm too spoiled by the sound of the mains. The only thing I can think of left to try is the Omega 2s. I'd certainly use the tube 007t if I got them, or else something from Singlepower, but we're talking about big bucks here, so it'll have to wait, if it ever even happens at all. Plus, there are no guarantees I'd even be satisfied with THAT. Kind of frustrating, but I'd rather go without any headphones at all than listen to something that doesn't satisfy my sonic demands.

Sincere thanks to all who posted to this thread trying to help with the selection. I now can say that I've ventured into tube based amplification.